The Religion Discussion

[AdamB]

Well if that is the case and Allah is the one true God then being an atheist or a christian wouldn't make a difference.So which would you consider the most sensible choice?

That's right Marlener, Allah refers to "mushrikun-kaafir" in the Qur'aan, meaning "disbelieving worshipper of other gods besides the One True GOD", so to worship or associate with other gods besides Allah IS DISBELIEF (from the muslim perspective).

This is applicable even if the person does part of his worship directing it to the One True GOD. So if he worships GOD, The Father, that will be correct in origin BUT if he worships Jesus and IN REALITY / TRUTH he is NOT THE SON OF GOD, then the above classification of DISBELIEF BECOMES APPLICABLE.

WHAT RISK ARE YOU NOW WILLING TO TAKE? PONDER ON IT.

[marlener]

Well firstly I was just responding to Duane's question,I have a fairly good understanding of islam,I have read the koran and own a digital copy so your response is nothing new to me. I can tell you however that there is absolutelymno risk where my salvatipn is concerned and it is free from any guess work.It's quite unfortunate that experiences can be shared but but the hearer never truely knows unless they themselves have had the experience. Anyway I am just getting home from work and shall respond after a few hours sleep before I leave again.

[AdamB]

^ to be a good person.

BTW is that how you chose Christianity? based on odds?

And what benefit is it if someone does good deeds but does not have faith / belief in the One True GOD?

[achillies]

For in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive

It's not a bargain, it's not a negotiation, it's a DONE DEAL, whether you have faith or not, whether you believe or not, the ransom has already been paid for ALL, those who lived before us, those who are living now and for those who will live after us.

[Habit7]

AdamB, do you hold Jesus with equal stance as prophet with Muhammed? (short answer please)

[RBphoto]

^ to be a good person.

BTW is that how you chose Christianity? based on odds?

And what benefit is it if someone does good deeds but does not have faith / belief in the One True GOD?

It means that they are truly good people who do good for goodness sake and not because they believe in an invisible fairy that will punish them for bad deeds. An agnostic atheist doing good for others is thus a superior human being to one who does good deeds with selfish motives/ incentives of heaven and hell.

By extension, your argument would mean that Christians, jews, hindu, budhist etc should not worry about doing good deeds, as they not going to count for heaven brownie points no?

What about a polytheist that believes in 100 gods.. does that make him a hundred times more rightous than a person who believes in one god?

[DFC]

Evidence against a recent creation is overwhelming. There is perhaps no greater attack upon science and rational thought than the doctrine of a recent creation of the planet Earth and/or the universe. This article collects known evidence that places a minimum age of the Earth beyond the usual 6,000 years quoted by Young Earth creationists (YECs). Deep time is the idea, held to be credible by natural researchers since the early 19th century, that the Earth is millions or billions of years old, rather than the few thousand of young earth creationism.

The accepted age of the Earth according to all theories and evidence combined is about 4.54 billion years, while the entire universe is around 14.5 billion years.
These ages weren't just made up. They were devised from a range of experiments and observations made across multiple disciplines of science such as astronomy, geology, biology, palaeontology, chemistry, geomorphology and physics. YECs, however, ignore these in favor of pseudoscience and their biblically based view that the world was created by magic.




There are many types of dating methods. It is also important to note that these dating methods are not mutually exclusive: where their range, accuracy and applicability overlap, the dates they produce are concordant with each other

1 Contents by minimum age
2 Amino acid racemization
3 Baptistina asteroid family
4 Continental drift
5 Coral
6 Cosmogenic nuclide dating
7 Dendrochronology
8 Distant starlight
9 Erosion
10 Fission track dating
11 Geomagnetic reversals
12 Helioseismology
13 Human Y-chromosomal ancestry
14 Ice layering
15 Impact craters
16 Iron-manganese nodule growth
17 Lack of DNA in fossils
18 Length of the prehistoric day
19 Lunar retreat
20 Naica megacrystals
21 Nitrogen impurities in natural diamonds
22 Oxidizable Carbon Ratio dating
23 Permafrost
24 Petrified wood
25 Radioactive decay
26 Relativistic jets
27 Rock varnish
28 Seabed plankton layering
29 Sedimentary varves
30 Space weathering
31 Stalactites
32 Thermoluminescence dating
33 Weathering rinds


FULL ARTICLE HERE http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation

[AdamB]

For in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive

It's not a bargain, it's not a negotiation, it's a DONE DEAL, whether you have faith or not, whether you believe or not, the ransom has already been paid for ALL, those who lived before us, those who are living now and for those who will live after us.

Jesus was sent to the jews approx 2000 yrs ago.

What's the purpose of life if the RANSOM has already been paid?

Are the wages of sin no longer death? Has the Bible been corrected?

Those who have been deceived don't see the deception in which they have been trapped!! Kinda like the Matrix!!!

[AdamB]

AdamB, do you hold Jesus with equal stance as prophet with Muhammed? (short answer please)

Yes but if you do, would that make Muhammad a god?

Do you hold equal as prophets: Abraham, Moses, Adam, Lot, Joseph and David?

[pioneer]

Evidence against a recent creation is overwhelming. There is perhaps no greater attack upon science and rational thought than the doctrine of a recent creation of the planet Earth and/or the universe. This article collects known evidence that places a minimum age of the Earth beyond the usual 6,000 years quoted by Young Earth creationists (YECs). Deep time is the idea, held to be credible by natural researchers since the early 19th century, that the Earth is millions or billions of years old, rather than the few thousand of young earth creationism.

The accepted age of the Earth according to all theories and evidence combined is about 4.54 billion years, while the entire universe is around 14.5 billion years.
These ages weren't just made up. They were devised from a range of experiments and observations made across multiple disciplines of science such as astronomy, geology, biology, palaeontology, chemistry, geomorphology and physics. YECs, however, ignore these in favor of pseudoscience and their biblically based view that the world was created by magic.




There are many types of dating methods. It is also important to note that these dating methods are not mutually exclusive: where their range, accuracy and applicability overlap, the dates they produce are concordant with each other

1 Contents by minimum age
2 Amino acid racemization
3 Baptistina asteroid family
4 Continental drift
5 Coral
6 Cosmogenic nuclide dating
7 Dendrochronology
8 Distant starlight
9 Erosion
10 Fission track dating
11 Geomagnetic reversals
12 Helioseismology
13 Human Y-chromosomal ancestry
14 Ice layering
15 Impact craters
16 Iron-manganese nodule growth
17 Lack of DNA in fossils
18 Length of the prehistoric day
19 Lunar retreat
20 Naica megacrystals
21 Nitrogen impurities in natural diamonds
22 Oxidizable Carbon Ratio dating
23 Permafrost
24 Petrified wood
25 Radioactive decay
26 Relativistic jets
27 Rock varnish
28 Seabed plankton layering
29 Sedimentary varves
30 Space weathering
31 Stalactites
32 Thermoluminescence dating
33 Weathering rinds


FULL ARTICLE HERE http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation

religionists dunno what these things are

[AdamB]

^ to be a good person.

BTW is that how you chose Christianity? based on odds?

And what benefit is it if someone does good deeds but does not have faith / belief in the One True GOD?

It means that they are truly good people who do good for goodness sake and not because they believe in an invisible fairy that will punish them for bad deeds. An agnostic atheist doing good for others is thus a superior human being to one who does good deeds with selfish motives/ incentives of heaven and hell.

By extension, your argument would mean that Christians, jews, hindu, budhist etc should not worry about doing good deeds, as they not going to count for heaven brownie points no?

What about a polytheist that believes in 100 gods.. does that make him a hundred times more rightous than a person who believes in one god?

Is Santa Claus coming to town?

TRULY you say? Some don't do it because their spouse forces them to?

By what standards do you say that some are better than others?

There may be evidence that disbelievers will be punished for enjoying the good things of this life, possibly because they were created for the enjoyment of believers. It may be like trespassing on someone else's property...

[DFC]

^ to be a good person.

BTW is that how you chose Christianity? based on odds?

And what benefit is it if someone does good deeds but does not have faith / belief in the One True GOD?

It means that they are truly good people who do good for goodness sake and not because they believe in an invisible fairy that will punish them for bad deeds. An agnostic atheist doing good for others is thus a superior human being to one who does good deeds with selfish motives/ incentives of heaven and hell.

By extension, your argument would mean that Christians, jews, hindu, budhist etc should not worry about doing good deeds, as they not going to count for heaven brownie points no?

What about a polytheist that believes in 100 gods.. does that make him a hundred times more rightous than a person who believes in one god?

Is Santa Claus coming to town?

TRULY you say? Some don't do it because their spouse forces them to?

By what standards do you say that some are better than others?

There may be evidence that disbelievers will be punished for enjoying the good things of this life, possibly because they were created for the enjoyment of believers. It may be like trespassing on someone else's property...

It's true that there is inequality, bias and racism in Islam.
Some Muslims are more favored than others.
It is evident.

Adamb, according to Islam, what is the age of the earth?

[Habit7]

AdamB, do you hold Jesus with equal stance as prophet with Muhammed? (short answer please)

Yes but if you do, would that make Muhammad a god?

Do you hold equal as prophets: Abraham, Moses, Adam, Lot, Joseph and David?

Yes I hold the other prophets as equals.

What I dont understand is that muslims for the most part stay silent when people make effigies of Jesus, insult Jesus and every other disrespect. But if one was to do it to Muhammed, the entire world needs to stop, and this person needs to be kicked off before it can start back spinning again.

[achillies]

For in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive

It's not a bargain, it's not a negotiation, it's a DONE DEAL, whether you have faith or not, whether you believe or not, the ransom has already been paid for ALL, those who lived before us, those who are living now and for those who will live after us.

Jesus was sent to the jews approx 2000 yrs ago.

What's the purpose of life if the RANSOM has already been paid?

Are the wages of sin no longer death? Has the Bible been corrected?

Those who have been deceived don't see the deception in which they have been trapped!! Kinda like the Matrix!!!

The wages of sin is death, did you die, if you didn't, then you didn't pay the wage of sin, it's quite simple really, on the surface, that is

There was a world that was, a world that is and a world that would be, three dispensations, with each having there purpose, and each having a ruler, who rules this world?

Only when that ruler is chained, AND the last enemy of man defeated, can the third dispensation begin. In that dispensation, we won't be under the curse of Adam which has one inevitable end. In that dispensation our own choices (not Adam's) would determine our end.

Your focus is narrow minded and woefully incomplete.

Not all who have been deceived, know they have been deceived, what of they?
What of those who never had a chance due to life, due to language, due to ignorance, due to believing in the wrong thing, what of those who don't believe at all, a plan that is neglecting these is a poor plan, an incomplete plan.

Do you really think that the reward is reserved only for those who "have not been deceived" The reward must be accessible for all, this is why the ransom was paid for all for all was doomed by Adam

The only way is for ALL to have the correct knowledge, and also to have ALL the correct knowledge and that can never happen in the world that is.

[Habit7]

DFC I didn't know who you were addressing in your post to so I left it out there for who else wanted to tackle it but I guess I will have to take up the challenge.

What you have there is undeniable and it’s not that if I carry that back to the YEC camp, the fellow scientists there are going to wonder in amazement and think "wow, we never saw that before!" The issue is that from inception of our science education, we have always been taught that science is based on laws and principles of testable, repeatable facts. But sometime around high school or even before we begin to ask Origin questions and here we are lead down a worldview.

In the 19th century geologists seeking to interpret their findings and to date their material came to the understanding of a theory called uniformitarianism. This is basically the understanding that the same process and time we observe things occurring currently, is the same process and time they were occurring when they were formed. So a geological feature took 100 years today, means it took 100 years to form yesterday. So to mesh that with relative dating (dating material relative to proximal material), if radioactive isotopes of an element were found in material, then they would observe the radioactive decay today, and extrapolate that this rate of decay and believed that it occurred at the same rate yesterday. Hence we have million year old rocks, and thereby million year old formations, and million year old features and some of the stuff you have on that list. Also this uniformitarianism is applied to other sciences and we get today's rates applied to yesterday's materials and we get all kinds of ages, etc.

All of that to say, we have been taught a naturalistic worldview. Where we believe everything that we can observe can be explained by naturalistic forces all happening and at constant, sustained rate.

Creationists however believe that unlike a CSI team trying to piece together the evidence to give an interpretation, we have a signed confession with and accompanying explanation. While the Bible is not a science text, they believe that it is a historical narrative about how God, a supernatural being, created the earth supernaturally while setting up naturalistic laws and principles to govern its existence, but in by no means restricting Himself to them. So creationists don't view science through the lens of naturalistic reasoning, but with the understanding primarily of a historic account that speaks of spontaneity, cataclysm and inconsistent rates of process.

So like your list o' stuff, I can produce my list o' stuff but we interpret the evidence from two difference worldviews: naturalistic and biblical. Now most scientists who are creationists have studied and excelled at secular universities and have proven to understand the naturalistic worldview, but most naturalists refuse to acknowledge the supernatural so they are incapable of understanding the biblical worldview. But if one rejects the supernatural not only do the reject Special Creation, they also reject Adam & Eve, Red Sea parting, the Incarnation and even Jesus' death and resurrection. And that is the worst thing about the naturalistic worldview, it denies life after death and judgement for one's life on Earth. And if one appears before the judgement seat of Christ without His atoning work applied to their life, they can only expect an eternity of punishment by God, in Hell.

[achillies]

Evidence against a recent creation is overwhelming. There is perhaps no greater attack upon science and rational thought than the doctrine of a recent creation of the planet Earth and/or the universe. This article collects known evidence that places a minimum age of the Earth beyond the usual 6,000 years quoted by Young Earth creationists (YECs). Deep time is the idea, held to be credible by natural researchers since the early 19th century, that the Earth is millions or billions of years old, rather than the few thousand of young earth creationism.

The accepted age of the Earth according to all theories and evidence combined is about 4.54 billion years, while the entire universe is around 14.5 billion years.
These ages weren't just made up. They were devised from a range of experiments and observations made across multiple disciplines of science such as astronomy, geology, biology, palaeontology, chemistry, geomorphology and physics. YECs, however, ignore these in favor of pseudoscience and their biblically based view that the world was created by magic.




There are many types of dating methods. It is also important to note that these dating methods are not mutually exclusive: where their range, accuracy and applicability overlap, the dates they produce are concordant with each other

1 Contents by minimum age
2 Amino acid racemization
3 Baptistina asteroid family
4 Continental drift
5 Coral
6 Cosmogenic nuclide dating
7 Dendrochronology
8 Distant starlight
9 Erosion
10 Fission track dating
11 Geomagnetic reversals
12 Helioseismology
13 Human Y-chromosomal ancestry
14 Ice layering
15 Impact craters
16 Iron-manganese nodule growth
17 Lack of DNA in fossils
18 Length of the prehistoric day
19 Lunar retreat
20 Naica megacrystals
21 Nitrogen impurities in natural diamonds
22 Oxidizable Carbon Ratio dating
23 Permafrost
24 Petrified wood
25 Radioactive decay
26 Relativistic jets
27 Rock varnish
28 Seabed plankton layering
29 Sedimentary varves
30 Space weathering
31 Stalactites
32 Thermoluminescence dating
33 Weathering rinds


FULL ARTICLE HERE http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Evidence_against_a_recent_creation

The earth was created by "Magic"

I have come to the conclusion that many who read the bible associate things they don't understand and things they can't explain with "magic" but this is very wrong and I suspect that this comes from people's lack of understanding of two words "creation" and "nothing"

EDIT: As Habit seems to be more versed in the purely science related questions

[Chimera]

hey guys....i have some magic beans to sell....

[MG Man]

do they come in rasta colours?

[Dizzy28]

Was watching Taboo on Nat Geo recently. They had an episode on death and there was a segment on a practice known an Sallekhana or Fasting till death in the Jain religion. They actually showed an old woman fast till she died capturing the moment of death. Was some really macabre stuff watching that episode though.

Santhara (also Sallekhana, Samadhi-marana, Samnyasa-marana), is the Jain religious ritual of voluntary death by fasting. Supporters of the practice believe that Santhara cannot be considered suicide, but rather something one does with full knowledge and intent, while suicide is viewed as emotional and hasty. Due to the prolonged nature of Santhara, the individual is given ample time to reflect on his or her life. The vow of Santhara is taken when one feels that one's life has served its purpose. The purpose is to purge old karmas and prevent the creation of new ones. There exists a similar Hindu practice known as Prayopavesa.

According to the Press Trust of India, on average 240 Jains practice Santhara until death each year in India

[MG Man]

pretty cool
I always felt that's one of the true freedoms of choice in this life..........dunno why society gets so uptight over it

[AdamB]

For in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive

It's not a bargain, it's not a negotiation, it's a DONE DEAL, whether you have faith or not, whether you believe or not, the ransom has already been paid for ALL, those who lived before us, those who are living now and for those who will live after us.

Jesus was sent to the jews approx 2000 yrs ago.

What's the purpose of life if the RANSOM has already been paid?

Are the wages of sin no longer death? Has the Bible been corrected?

Those who have been deceived don't see the deception in which they have been trapped!! Kinda like the Matrix!!!

The wages of sin is death, did you die, if you didn't, then you didn't pay the wage of sin, it's quite simple really, on the surface, that is

There was a world that was, a world that is and a world that would be, three dispensations, with each having there purpose, and each having a ruler, who rules this world?

Only when that ruler is chained, AND the last enemy of man defeated, can the third dispensation begin. In that dispensation, we won't be under the curse of Adam which has one inevitable end. In that dispensation our own choices (not Adam's) would determine our end.
So you gobble up the Nancy stories they throw at you.

Your focus is narrow minded and woefully incomplete.
The brainwashed sees everyone else as they are! How ironic!! And to whom did Jesus make this statement? Are you following his example? If not, whose?

Not all who have been deceived, know they have been deceived, what of they?
What of those who never had a chance due to life, due to language, due to ignorance, due to believing in the wrong thing, what of those who don't believe at all, a plan that is neglecting these is a poor plan, an incomplete plan.
The Plan of the One True GOD is incomplete!!??[color=#0000FF][/color]

Do you really think that the reward is reserved only for those who "have not been deceived" The reward must be accessible for all, this is why the ransom was paid for all for all was doomed by Adam
There you go with your lies and now blaming poor Adam.

The ransom was paid for all, LOL.

The reward IS ACCESSIBLE TO ALL, it's called CHOICE!!

The only way is for ALL to have the correct knowledge, and also to have ALL the correct knowledge and that can never happen in the world that is.

The Correct knowledge lies in Islam!!!!

[achillies]

So....

You claim the reward is accessible by all, it's called "choice" then you say the correct knowledge lies in Islam, explain how there is choice based on your own statements that the correct knowledge lies in Islam.

Salvation is not dependant on religion, and it does not even make sense that it should.

But for knowledge sake

Tell me Islam's plans for the poor that live who would never hear of Islam, Christianity or any other religion, for his entire life has been dedicated to the next meal

Tell me Islam's plans for those who lived and died under oppression, before being given a choice to choose

Tell me Islam's plans for the tribes that live in isolation that would never be exposed to modern religion, far less Islam

When you can tell me of Islam's plans for these folks who did not have the "opportunity" to make that "choice" I will tell you if that plan is complete, and denial of these people existence is not a valid excuse.

[Dizzy28]

pretty cool
I always felt that's one of the true freedoms of choice in this life..........dunno why society gets so uptight over it

Because you choosing when to go is counter intuitive to an all knowing all powerful God who has control over man.

[AdamB]

pretty cool
I always felt that's one of the true freedoms of choice in this life..........dunno why society gets so uptight over it

Because you choosing when to go is counter intuitive to an all knowing all powerful God who has control over man.

According to the christian view expressed above, Satan is in control of this realm!

[Habit7]

AdamB, do you hold Jesus with equal stance as prophet with Muhammed? (short answer please)

Yes but if you do, would that make Muhammad a god?

Do you hold equal as prophets: Abraham, Moses, Adam, Lot, Joseph and David?

Yes I hold the other prophets as equals.

What I dont understand is that muslims for the most part stay silent when people make effigies of Jesus, insult Jesus and every other disrespect. But if one was to do it to Muhammed, the entire world needs to stop, and this person needs to be kicked off before it can start back spinning again.

[MG Man]

pretty cool
I always felt that's one of the true freedoms of choice in this life..........dunno why society gets so uptight over it

Because you choosing when to go is counter intuitive to an all knowing all powerful God who has control over man.

so u saying god has no control over those who chose to end their existence?

[Dizzy28]

Imma just be saying taking your life would be taking away that which is supposed to left up to God.......supposedly.

For example RC Views - The chief Catholic Christian argument is that one's life is the property of God and a gift to the world, and to destroy that life is to wrongly assert dominion over what is God's and is a tragic loss of hope

But I dunno nah, the same Church sanctioned the Inquisition amongst many other wars which led to life taking.

[AdamB]

So....

You claim the reward is accessible by all, it's called "choice" then you say the correct knowledge lies in Islam, explain how there is choice based on your own statements that the correct knowledge lies in Islam.

Salvation is not dependant on religion, and it does not even make sense that it should.

But for knowledge sake

Tell me Islam's plans for the poor that live who would never hear of Islam, Christianity or any other religion, for his entire life has been dedicated to the next meal

Tell me Islam's plans for those who lived and died under oppression, before being given a choice to choose

Tell me Islam's plans for the tribes that live in isolation that would never be exposed to modern religion, far less Islam

When you can tell me of Islam's plans for these folks who did not have the "opportunity" to make that "choice" I will tell you if that plan is complete, and denial of these people existence is not a valid excuse.

Islam has the answers for the questions you pose above, however it's a matter of CHOICE for one to accept or reject.

Before we go there, you made the following claims AND THE BURDEN OF PROOF is upon you to prove them, otherwise you are only spewing your christian propaganda:

1. (whether you have faith or not, whether you believe or not,) the ransom has already been paid for ALL

2. There was a world that was, a world that is and a world that would be, three dispensations, with each having there purpose, and each having a ruler

3. Only when that ruler is chained, AND the last enemy of man defeated, can the third dispensation begin.
4. the curse of Adam which has one inevitable end

5. The only way is for ALL to have the correct knowledge, and also to have ALL the correct knowledge and that can never happen in the world that is.

You have contradicted yourself in this last statement.

Mr Achillies, you better check your heel.

[achillies]

Adam B, you have not answered the question, if I come as a Christian, an atheist, an agnostic looking for answers and I ask the above questions, your answer is going to be "Islam has the answer" what is that, lol? I hope you are kidding.

If you truly know and understand this plan, you should be able to relay/explain it in layman terms, if you can't, then you either don't understand yourself, or you don't really know it ot there is no plan.

And let's not start with the delay tactics, "before we go there" O_O please, let's go there now.

"the burden of proof" who determines who the burden rests upon and who determines what is used as proof? You?

"christian propaganda" anything ill spoken words against Muhammad is propaganda in your eyes, so please understand when I tell you that you saying the word "propaganda" reduces it's meaning to zero.

"Mr achillies, you better check your heel" <--- now that is just downright lame

When you address my question directly, I would seek to address your concerns about me contradicting myself (some clarity is needed there also)

So the question remains, what is Islam's plan for those who would never choose Islam, some by choice, some by the lack of choice?

[DFC]

If a man say, Jesus Allah Vishnu before he die, then he safe.