The Religion Discussion

[AdamB]

1. GOD is not here, there and everywhere.

I thought God was omnipresent?

Kinda like interpretation of religious scriptures by those not qualified to interpret and explain...

how is religious scripture meant for everyone and considered perfect when it requires "those qualified to interpret and explain" it?

What if a newly converted person takes a religious text back to his people in his native land in a bid to convert those back home. If there are no "qualified persons to interpret and explain", then they will be left to come up with their own interpretations and explanations, not so?

and I direct this to any religion

Islam teaches to call people to GOD with even the most minute amount of knowledge that one has. However, it also encourages to seek knowledge before anything else TO KNOW GOD.

So to answer your question, in the past when we didn't have the technology and level of communication that we have today, it was possible to interpret and explain as you have suggested BUT whoever would have been undertaking that task would have sought his knowledge first and then take it to the people. Muslim rulers used to send their most knowledgeable men to call people to GOD. That is how Islam spread to Indonesia, etc. In those days men used to memorize the Quran and hadith (sayings of the prophet) by the thousands.

The muslim converting this person would have made it clear to him what was allowed in worship and what was not. Also, most importantly, what would take someone out of the fold of islam. Those would have been the things to stay away from.

Those who deviate do so seeking their desires that stray away from the established teachings of the prophet who has conveyed the message to the people. If anyone thinks they can do better then they are really saying that the prophet didn't fulfill completely what he was sent to deliver or that he left out something. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT SO!!

if what you say is true , why then are there so many different sects of Islam? Shia, Sunni, Sufi etc
People deviate because of 2 reasons:
1. Corruption of knowledge.

2. Corruption of intent.

Put these 2 together, people either:

1. have good intention but because of lost knowledge (correct meaning) go astray.

2. due to willful wrong intent, they change the wording and/or meaning of the scriptures thereby leading themselves astray.

Our prophet is reported to have said that the one group that will be saved is the one that clings to his sunnah (practise) and the sunnah of the rightly guided caliphs.

He is also reported to have said that "anyone who does an act that is not from our way, will have it rejected." Meaning that deeds have to be:
1. Correct (from the authentic practise of the prophet)
2. Sincere for the sake of the pleasure of GOD.

each of them, up to this day, think their way is the right way and the only way.

where is their proof?

If the proofs are examined you will see that THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEIR DESIRES DO SO BASED ON WEAK EVIDENCE.

[AdamB]

In my opinion it is not our responsible to convert people,that is the job of the Holy Spirit.

Then why did GOD send prophets to people in different times and places? Why send Jesus (and Noah, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad)? Why not the Holy Spirit alone to seek out the sincere ones and inhabit/possess them?

adam b its obvious you are not clear on what Marlene is trying to say ...why not ask her to explain it to you?

I respectfully disagree because:

1. GOD is not here, there and everywhere. HE does not need to be. Or if HE is, then HE would already be in people,so there would be no need to send the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is GOD (according to Christians) who is already there.

are you saying that its because of the christian doctrine you draw the conclusion that God can't be everywhere? why not bring your point using what Islam teaches? why are you making it seems as if your worldview is governed by the christian faith?
The proofs are clear and in abundance from our valid Islamic sources. In speaking to christians I refer to their own scriptures to show that it exists there to support my view or to bring opposing views into question.

2. That would be biased and UNJUST to only guide the sincere ones and leave everyone else wandering in misguidance. People change when true guidance comes to them, even the evil, insincere ones. Proof - one of the 2 men who were on the cross next to Jesus.

are you admitting the fact that Jesus was crucified?
NO!!!
this is totally against the teachings of Islam..lol you just gave proof that the quran was wrong on this?

Again, I was quoting an incident reported in your bible. Even if he (Jesus) was put on the cross, then that is not proof that he died there, he could have been removed by GOD anytime or men at night. See my point but you jumping the gun. If you knew anything about auditing or objective evidence, then you might understand a little of what I say. There is only so much one can infer from a person's specific statement.

[Kasey]

sMASH!!! Where art thou??

[Kasey]

So.......... AdamB, are you yasalama OR York?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

AdamB I didn't ask why people deviate.
I am trying to understand your opinion.

How do you know they are wrong and you are right?
If you grew up as a Shia, you would think Sunni is corrupt.

You have no proof that they are wrong other than your own opinion and those opinions of the ones you have faith in.

You have faith in the teachings of Sunni scholars and maulanas as - which is good.

But you cannot claim as fact that other beliefs are corrupt!!!

[nismotrinidappa]

apparently adamb is correct and perfect and without flaw... he knows everything.. you better listen to him .. if adamb says it is so.. it is so

[Kasey]

^^pallie, what Duane is saying applies to you too. NO one can pove their religion is 'righter' than the other.

[marlener]

Firstly I think Christians all agree to God`s Omni present.
You seem to be unsure. So what did Jesus mean when he said "OUR FATHER, THOU ART IN HEAVEN"? I am sure there are numerous references to GOD being ABOVE OR IN HEAVEN. What is the obviously understood meaning of this? More importantly, where is you PROOF for Omnipresence?[color=#0000FF][/color]

So it is hardly ever a point of disagreement maybe discussion though. Considering what Duane originally asked,if someone is sincere the spirit of God will direct them to the Bible as it is the written will of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 clearly states why the scripture is given.If a person never had access to the buble and sought sincerely to know God that is different from someone who had the opportunity and rejected it,they will not be able to achieve that close relationship with God and grown in grace.We also need to remember that we have a choice to recieve the Holy Spirit,the teaching of God,The Holy Spirit does not force himself on anyone.
In old testament days God spoke and directed his people in different ways, the burning bush and many other ways including prophets.

Was the burning bush GOD also? Or was it just a bush on fire on Mt Sinai?

Can you quote the references from the Bible with regard to "actually SEEING GOD"?

Firstly God spoke using the bush as the medium, the bush itself was not God,I never said that anyone actually saw God.For the bible said that no man can see God face and live.That is because we are sinful in nature.The nearest man has come to seeing God in my limited knowledge was through Jesus who took on this feeble mortal shell to accomplish a purpose. But the bible clearly states that every eye shall see him even the righteous dead at his second coming,the unrighteous dead will also have the opportunity and ALL shall declare that Jesus Christ is Lord. This sinful body cannot withstand the holiness of God before then until this mortal body puts on immortality.

[nismotrinidappa]

same thing i posted earlier marlener....

[marlener]

By the way I am not unsure as to what I believe concern God`s omni potence but I think this was discuss a few pages earlier.
Nismo either your post was not read,or understood or maybe just wantedvto hear what i would say not sure.

[megadoc1]

I respectfully disagree because:

1. GOD is not here, there and everywhere. HE does not need to be. Or if HE is, then HE would already be in people,so there would be no need to send the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is GOD (according to Christians) who is already there.

are you saying that its because of the christian doctrine you draw the conclusion that God can't be everywhere? why not bring your point using what Islam teaches? why are you making it seems as if your worldview is governed by the christian faith?

The proofs are clear and in abundance from our valid Islamic sources. In speaking to christians I refer to their own scriptures to show that it exists there to support my view or to bring opposing views into question.

but your opposing view is based on Islam and Islam alone!!! the Christian doctrine is in opposition to your views !! so why nitpick at it in an attempt to make it say what you want it to say, contrary to what it really teaches ? the christian doctrine teaches that God is every where! please stop exploiting on your unwillingness / inability to learn or understand certain christian concept of God to make your point!

2. That would be biased and UNJUST to only guide the sincere ones and leave everyone else wandering in misguidance. People change when true guidance comes to them, even the evil, insincere ones. Proof - one of the 2 men who were on the cross next to Jesus.

are you admitting the fact that Jesus was crucified?

NO!!!

but you said "proof" then is it a possibility for most of your other proofs to not actually be true?

this is totally against the teachings of Islam..lol you just gave proof that the quran was wrong on this?

[color=#0000FF]Again, I was quoting an incident reported in your bible.

duh?.......

Even if he (Jesus) was put on the cross, then that is not proof that he died there,

so now you chose to be selective of what the bible teaches when you are relating to Christians? you know fully well the only reason he could not die there is because the Qur'an said so!!! be honest

he could have been removed by GOD anytime or men at night.

speculation much? you accuse the folks gone by of changing or manipulating the bible but here you are doing it because you need it to line up with what you believe? lol.... anyways the Qur'an categorically Denies Jesus being crucified so are you now saying that the Qur'an maybe wrong too?

They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but the likeness of him was put on another man (and they killed that man)... (Qur'an, 4:157)

[megadoc1]

That is your opinion.

I know it was I who made the post...duh

The Jewish scriptures didn't specify Jesus by name. So your claim is just that, a claim.

lol...you' re hilarious

You need to give the description in the Jewish scriptures and then show HOW it refers to Jesus.

its been done many times I don't need to do that!

What I am saying is that if we both do the same, I will be in a higher standing than you in that Muhammad was the one prophesized about.

lol....then how about you give the description in the Jewish scriptures and then show HOW it refers to Muhammad?

Their description of the Messiah in the Old Testament more closely fits Muhammad.

well then logic dictates that I return your own question , to you !!Why then did the Jews reject Muhammad ? Why didn't they recognize him when the "Messiah" was described to them?

Because:
1. They wanted the Messiah to be a Jew, A RACIAL THING!! But as prophesized, he was FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN (lineage of Abraham).

lol ...no reference of such prophesy self?

2. It was written in their book but they changed it, the name Ahmad was written as it was written in the Bible.

yuh know ,I know this is a waste of time eh but can you tell us when this change took place ,who did it and how do yo know what was there before such change?

Also, during the baptism of Jesus, the mentioning of "another" prophet (other than the Christ) to come. Check it and compare.

can you quote this mentioning of another prophet to come? for the sake of clarity..

Check John 1:21 "Are you Elijah? No. Are you that/the prophet? No." Then who was the prophet spoken about and expected? Is there another prophet still to come or was Muhammad THAT PROPHET?

first you say that Jesus was not the one prophesied about because they did not call him by name but now you saying its Muhammad even though a name was clearly stated that wasn't Muhammad's? Elijah cant mean Jesus but it could mean Muhammad? lol you are funny! "The Jewish scriptures didn't specify muhamad by name. So your claim is just that, a claim."

They say jesus is GOD but he had to be baptized and called a prophet, well that discussion is for another time.

lol if you think calling someone a prophet or baptizing them disqualifies them from being God then your view of God is very limited[/quote]

It is only NOW that the word PROPHET is used loosely for every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to open a church to make money but in the past it was used to mean A MESSENGER SENT / CHOSEN BY GOD TO CALL TO THE PEOPLE.

a while back d spike educated you on the use of the term "prophet" in the christian era and you acknowledged him saying you learnt something, but it seems like you lied, seeing that you returned with the same nonsense and lack of understanding... besides what this have to do with Jesus being called a prophet and according to what you think of it , disqualifies him from being God?

Yes, my view of GOD is limited to what GOD has revealed about HIMSELF, not what people can conjure up in their limited minds. HOW BOLD THEY ARE!!

ok but you are the one here conjuring up a limited god so who worse? you are the one boldly putting God in a box! just because you think if God can be everywhere, the possibility exists that he can be found in a cesspit and that troubles you greatly so you limit him and believe he cant be everywhere only to ease your troubling thoughts!

Can you tell us what was the concept or VIEW OF GOD in OLD TESTAMENT DAYS?

its still there! take a read !

Did GOD change or did people change their view of HIM (to suit their desires - pagan beliefs)? [/color]

looking at the old testament and what Islam is trying to present I wold agree with yo there that people change their view of HIM (to suit their desires - pagan beliefs)?

[DFC]

Wow, alot has happened while i was out.

carry on then....

[AdamB]

" I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require [it] of him." (Deuteronomy 18:18-19)

"Nor does he (Muhammad) speak of his own desire. It is but an Inspiration that is inspired [unto him]" (The noble Qur'an, Al-Najm(53):3-4)

[AdamB]

By the way I am not unsure as to what I believe concern God`s omni potence but I think this was discuss a few pages earlier.
Nismo either your post was not read,or understood or maybe just wanted to hear what i would say not sure.

Marlener,
Can you please post your evidence for the "Omnipresence of GOD" in christianity? I don't recall that it was posted but maybe it was, not sure. What I am attempting to test is the strength of the evidence for this claim.

I hope that you are not like some others here who believe blindly...important aspects of one's creed should be supported by evidence, if you don't KNOW it, how can you say that you truly BELIEVE?

Also, why does GOD NEED to be Omni-present?

@Megadoc, isn't saying that GOD is EVERYWHERE, isn't that putting HIM in a BOX, a box with all creation?

[AdamB]

Isaiah's vision: He foretold the story of "Al-alak" that is in the Noble Quran about Muhammad:

"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I am not learned. Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, [even] a marvelous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid. Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us? Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding? [Is] it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest? And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness." (Isaiah 29:11-18)

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was illiterate. His entire life he never learned to read nor write. The exact circumstances of this first revelation were as follows: It was the habit of Muhammad (peace be upon him) to frequently remove himself from the midst of his fellow Arabs and their heathenistic actions and spend many days secluded in the cave of "Hiraa" in the mountains of Makkah where he would pray to God according to the religion of Abraham (peace be upon him). After many years of this, and having reached the age of forty (610AD), the angel Gabriel suddenly appeared before him and ordered him to "Iqra!" (read, recite, repeat, proclaim). Muhammad (peace be upon him), in his terror thought he was being asked to read, so he stammered: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel again ordered him to "Iqra!" Muhammad (peace be upon him) again replied: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel now took a firm hold of him and commanded him "Iqraa in the name of Allah who created!". Now Muhammad (peace be upon him) began to understand that he was not being asked to read, but to recite, to repeat. He began to repeat after him, and Gabriel revealed to him the first verses of the Qur'an, those at the beginning of the chapter of Al-Alak(96):

"Read(Iqraa): In the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clot. Read(Iqraa): And your Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teaches by the pen, Teaches man that which he knew not." (The noble Qur'an, Al-Alak(96):1-5)

As mentioned above, the actual word angel Gabriel used to address Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the Arabic word "Iqra." It is derived from the Arabic root word "qara". However, if we were to go back to the original Hebrew form of the verses of Isaiah 29:11, we would find that the actual word which is translated into English as "Read this [I pray thee]" is the Hebrew word qara', {kaw-raw'}. Is it not an amazing coincidence that the Hebrew text used not only a word with the same meaning, but the exact same word itself ?

Verse 11 of Isaiah tells us that the final book (the Qur'an) was revealed to previous prophets, however, they could not read it. It was "sealed" for them because it was meant for the last prophet, and until the last prophet's time came, the people would not yet be able to "bear" this message (John 16:13). It was also sealed for them because it was revealed in Arabic.

[AdamB]

Isaiah's vision:

Isaiah saw a vision of two riders.

"And he saw a chariot [with] a couple of horsemen, a chariot of asses, [and] a chariot of camels .." (Isaiah 21:7)

Who was the rider upon the ass? Every Sunday school student will tell us that this was a prophecy of Jesus (peace be upon him), as stated in John:

"And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written," (John 12:14)

but who is the promised prophet who would ride the camel? If it is not Muhammad (peace be upon him) then this prophecy has yet to be fulfilled. Let us read on...

"And, behold, here cometh a chariot of men, [with] a couple of horsemen. And he answered and said, Babylon is fallen, is fallen; and all the graven images of her gods he hath broken unto the ground." (Isaiah 21:9)

Babylon did indeed fall before Islam and the Islamic nation under the guidance of Muhammad (peace be upon him) did indeed succeed in eradicating the worship of idols from Babylon replacing it with the worship of God alone. In fact, the Muslims were the only believers in the God of Isaiah to ever succeed in fulfilling this prophesy.

[d spike]

Check John 1:21 "Are you Elijah? No. Are you that/the prophet? No." Then who was the prophet spoken about and expected? Is there another prophet still to come or was Muhammad THAT PROPHET?

This sort of error is what happens when folks who are not versed in scripture argue about that very scripture... all sorts of insinuations and assumptions are made, based on every and anything other than the said scripture.
The person who made this statement is quite unaware of the beliefs of the Jews. There is a belief among the Jews that Elijah would reappear just before the coming of the Messiah. This is mentioned in the deutercanonical writings of Joshua ben Sirach, a Jewish scribe from Jerusalem. These writings were probably written in Alexandria, Egypt between 180 and 175 BC, and are known as The Book of Sirach.
In the portion where the writer expounds on the prophets, he writes about Elijah, and states the italicized belief.
The prophet Malachi, who prophesied between 445 and 432 BC, mentions Moses prophecy about a prophet. (More on that in a moment.) He identifies the prophet Moses spoke of as Elijah. He also places this prophet's coming in the context of "before the great day of the Lord". This prophecy is most likely what helped start the belief among the Jews, who are a messianic people, that the prophet Elijah was going to reappear just before the Messiah's arrival.

It is accepted by many biblical scholars that John the Baptist was the "sign" of Elijah. as his actions and utterances mirrored that of Israel's best-loved prophet at the time.
For those who wish to argue the point that Elijah isn't John, well... what did you expect?
The Jews didn't believe in reincarnation, so who did you really think they were expecting?

1. They wanted the Messiah to be a Jew, A RACIAL THING!! But as prophesized, he was FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN (lineage of Abraham).

BUT HE WAS PROMISED TO THEM, AS ONE OF THEIR OWN!!!! WHAT BLOODY FOOLISHNESS IS THIS???
In Deuteronomy 18:14-22, Moses addressed the Israelites. Warning them about the people OF THE LAND THEY WERE ABOUT TO OCCUPY and the OCCULT PRACTICES used there, he told them that God would send them a prophet like himself (Moses) "FROM AMONG YOUR OWN PEOPLE".
The Children of Israel went to Egypt, and then returned under Moses. The other people who claim to share Abraham's lineage DID NOT GO TO EGYPT... NEITHER DID THEY TAG ALONG WITH MOSES... SO HOW COULD MOSES BE REFERRING TO THEM AS BEING THE SOURCE OF THE PROPHET????
Let me guess... that part of the Jewish scriptures was doctored too, eh? Codswallop.

2. It was written in their book but they changed it, the name Ahmad was written as it was written in the Bible.

REALLY???? Where is your "proof" of this absurd remark?
You quote the Bible when it pleases you, and when it doesn't, it has been "altered"... What nonsense. Say you disagree if you wish, but to claim that the scripture of another religion has been "modified" because you believe in something different, is simply puerile.

[DFC]

Definition of Omni-Presence varies with each different religion i guess.

[AdamB]

Interesting, as it may sound that, in the context of Deuteronomy 17:15, there is nothing to point out that for W-H-O-M the word “BRETHREN” is referred to.

"Brethren"

As Arabic and Hebrew are sister languages, the word ‘brethren’ in English is known as ‘Akh’ in Arabic and ‘Awkh’ ( ) in Hebrew. The correct definition of the word brethren, Akh, or Awkh is

1) Brother

a) brother of same parents

b) half-brother (same father)

c) relative, kinship, same tribe

d) each to the other (reciprocal relationship)

e) (fig.) of resemblance

The reality is that, this word ‘brethren’ is very vast in its meaning, since you can notice from the wide range of meaning, which this word has.

Ishmael; The First Born

As the Prophecy reads as follows: "I WILL RAISE THEM UP A PROPHET FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN LIKE UNTO THEE......." The emphasis is on the words- "From among their brethren." You see, the Holy Bible speaks of Abraham as the "Friend of God". Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - HIS FIRST-BORN- '......And Abraham called HIS SON'S name, which Hagar bare Ishmael.' (Genesis 16:15). 'And Abraham took Ishmael HIS SON......" (Genesis 17:23). 'And Ishmael HIS SON was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.' (Genesis 17:25). Up to the age of THIRTEEN Ishmael was the ONLY son and seed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah, named Isaac, who was very much the junior to his brother Ishmael.

Arabs and Jews

If Ishmael and Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then they are brothers. And so the children of the one are the BRETHREN of the children of the other. The children of Isaac are the Jews and the Children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are BRETHREN to one another. The Bible affirms, 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) SHALL DWELL IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.' (Genesis 16:12). 'AND HE (ISHMAEL) DIED IN THE PRESENCE OF ALL HIS BRETHREN.(Genesis 25:18). The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhammad is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the son of Abraham. This exactly as the prophecy has it- 'FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN'.(Deut.18:18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses, must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves', but from among their brethren. MUHAMMAD THEREFORE WAS FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN!

[DFC]

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was illiterate. His entire life he never learned to read nor write. The exact circumstances of this first revelation were as follows: It was the habit of Muhammad (peace be upon him) to frequently remove himself from the midst of his fellow Arabs and their heathenistic actions and spend many days secluded in the cave of "Hiraa" in the mountains of Makkah where he would pray to God according to the religion of Abraham (peace be upon him). After many years of this, and having reached the age of forty (610AD), the angel Gabriel suddenly appeared before him and ordered him to "Iqra!" (read, recite, repeat, proclaim). Muhammad (peace be upon him), in his terror thought he was being asked to read, so he stammered: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel again ordered him to "Iqra!" Muhammad (peace be upon him) again replied: "I am unlettered." The angel Gabriel now took a firm hold of him and commanded him "Iqraa in the name of Allah who created!". Now Muhammad (peace be upon him) began to understand that he was not being asked to read, but to recite, to repeat. He began to repeat after him, and Gabriel revealed to him the first verses of the Qur'an, those at the beginning of the chapter of Al-Alak(96):

"Read(Iqraa): In the name of your Lord who created, Created man from a clot. Read(Iqraa): And your Lord is the Most Bounteous, Who teaches by the pen, Teaches man that which he knew not." (The noble Qur'an, Al-Alak(96):1-5)

As mentioned above, the actual word angel Gabriel used to address Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the Arabic word "Iqra." It is derived from the Arabic root word "qara". However, if we were to go back to the original Hebrew form of the verses of Isaiah 29:11, we would find that the actual word which is translated into English as "Read this [I pray thee]" is the Hebrew word qara', {kaw-raw'}. Is it not an amazing coincidence that the Hebrew text used not only a word with the same meaning, but the exact same word itself ?

So in the whole Arab world , Gabriel chose an illiterate man to reveal the Quran.??

It seems Gabriel wasnt too smart either.

Verse 11 of Isaiah tells us that the final book (the Qur'an) was revealed to previous prophets, however, they could not read it. It was "sealed" for them because it was meant for the last prophet, and until the last prophet's time came, the people would not yet be able to "bear" this message (John 16:13). It was also sealed for them because it was revealed in Arabic.

So the Quran was revealed to previous prophets, however they couldn't read it, and it was finally revealed to an illiterate man.

Right, makes perfect sense.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Verse 11 of Isaiah tells us that the final book (the Qur'an) was revealed to previous prophets, however, they could not read it. It was "sealed" for them because it was meant for the last prophet, and until the last prophet's time came, the people would not yet be able to "bear" this message (John 16:13). It was also sealed for them because it was revealed in Arabic.

why was it revealed to them if they couldnt read it?

[AdamB]

Verse 11 of Isaiah tells us that the final book (the Qur'an) was revealed to previous prophets, however, they could not read it. It was "sealed" for them because it was meant for the last prophet, and until the last prophet's time came, the people would not yet be able to "bear" this message (John 16:13). It was also sealed for them because it was revealed in Arabic.

why was it revealed to them if they couldnt read it?

Isaiah 29:11
"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I am not learned."

Sorry, it was the VISION of :

1. the "sealed book", not the actual revelation, AND

2. the "one that saith I AM NOT LEARNED".

I will ask the Bible scholars here to advise whom this prophesy fits.

It is common established knowledge in Islam that

1. all of the previous prophets were told of Muhammad, the Last / Seal of the prophets

2. all of the souls of the children of Adam were extracted and be made to witness that THERE IS NO GOD (WORTHY OF WORSHIP) EXCEPT THE ONE TRUE GOD (ALLAH).

[AdamB]

Definition of Omni-Presence varies with each different religion i guess.

That's hitting the nail on the head!!

I've pointed out before that there is a HUGH difference between the ESSENCE of GOD and HIS ATTRIBUTES (knowledge, hearing, seeing, power, control of affairs, creator, etc).

Those who advocate FOR Omnipresence need to consider this difference when they examine their proofs.

[AdamB]

2. It was written in their book but they changed it, the name Ahmad was written as it was written in the Bible.

REALLY???? Where is your "proof" of this absurd remark?
You quote the Bible when it pleases you, and when it doesn't, it has been "altered"... What nonsense. Say you disagree if you wish, but to claim that the scripture of another religion has been "modified" because you believe in something different, is simply puerile.

Check the Dead Sea Scrolls, will post the proof later!!

[d spike]

2. It was written in their book but they changed it, the name Ahmad was written as it was written in the Bible.

REALLY???? Where is your "proof" of this absurd remark?
You quote the Bible when it pleases you, and when it doesn't, it has been "altered"... What nonsense. Say you disagree if you wish, but to claim that the scripture of another religion has been "modified" because you believe in something different, is simply puerile.

Check the Dead Sea Scrolls, will post the proof later!!

You go ahead and post, laddie. I am not wasting any time discussing scripture with someone whose way of dealing with being wrong is to claim that the scriptures being discussed were altered.
Logic dictates that either you agree that the writings are accepted and can be used as a base for your arguments, or you agree that they are altered and are not capable of supporting an argument.
Something can either be true or false - which is it?
You continually refer to the Biblical scriptures for support, yet refuse to accept where it conflicts with your view.
It explicitly states that:
Hagar was not Abraham's WIFE, she was his wife's slave - a perfectly acceptable arrangement at the time, yet it seems to bug you:
God is omnipresent - of course some writings place Him in specific points, but isn't that the point of being omnipresent? Being everywhere? Is there somewhere that he isn't?
Moses was speaking CLEARLY to the bunch of folks who tagged along with him through the desert, when they came to the Promised Land, when he said that a prophet will come "from among your own people", while warning them about the strangers who were in the land they were about to occupy - why are you so adamant to storm a party you weren't invited to?

Now you tell me to "check" the collected writings of the Essenes... a Jewish religious community... who believed in the same scripture you consider "altered"... Why are you trying to waste my time?
Why have you not yet responded to Megadoc, who has asked you repeatedly to explain when were the scriptures altered? This way, we can establish a benchmark for "unaltered" Biblical scriptures.
So, as you are referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls, am I to assume that these writings are "unaltered"? Can you give a definite answer to this?

[Kasey]

Its not Adam's grasp of English that makes him out to be so ignorant, its his blinders that make him not see the whole picture. Everyone in the same boat and he thinks that he is on better ground. He does not even know that he is........well frankly.......wrong.

[megadoc1]

Verse 11 of Isaiah tells us that the final book (the Qur'an) was revealed to previous prophets, however, they could not read it. It was "sealed" for them because it was meant for the last prophet, and until the last prophet's time came, the people would not yet be able to "bear" this message (John 16:13). It was also sealed for them because it was revealed in Arabic.

why was it revealed to them if they couldnt read it?

Isaiah 29:11
"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I am not learned."

Sorry, it was the VISION of :

1. the "sealed book", not the actual revelation, AND

2. the "one that saith I AM NOT LEARNED".

I will ask the Bible scholars here to advise whom this prophesy fits.

It is common established knowledge in Islam that

1. all of the previous prophets were told of Muhammad, the Last / Seal of the prophets

2. all of the souls of the children of Adam were extracted and be made to witness that THERE IS NO GOD (WORTHY OF WORSHIP) EXCEPT THE ONE TRUE GOD (ALLAH).

a perfect example of the Ishmaelites desperation to be part of what God had install for Israel!
clearly this chapter deals with judgment against Israel but yet even that they would grab at just
to feel accepted

Because:
1. They wanted the Messiah to be a Jew, A RACIAL THING!! But as prophesized, he was FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN (lineage of Abraham).

yeah right!!! I would say that the ishmaelites wanted to have a prophet of their own just like the Israelites and in the end they ended up creating one, now any scripture that remotely sounds as if it related to their prophet they hold on too but anything that goes against...........well , it was changed by man....

[megadoc1]

mg man, some folks did a movie on one of your heroes,john Lennon check it out

[AdamB]

Verse 11 of Isaiah tells us that the final book (the Qur'an) was revealed to previous prophets, however, they could not read it. It was "sealed" for them because it was meant for the last prophet, and until the last prophet's time came, the people would not yet be able to "bear" this message (John 16:13). It was also sealed for them because it was revealed in Arabic.

why was it revealed to them if they couldnt read it?

Isaiah 29:11
"And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, [I pray thee]: and he saith, I am not learned."

Sorry, it was the VISION of :

1. the "sealed book", not the actual revelation, AND

2. the "one that saith I AM NOT LEARNED".

[size=200]I will ask the Bible scholars here to advise whom this prophesy fits.[/size]

It is common established knowledge in Islam that

1. all of the previous prophets were told of Muhammad, the Last / Seal of the prophets

2. all of the souls of the children of Adam were extracted and be made to witness that THERE IS NO GOD (WORTHY OF WORSHIP) EXCEPT THE ONE TRUE GOD (ALLAH).

a perfect example of the Ishmaelites desperation to be part of what God had install for Israel!
clearly this chapter deals with judgment against Israel but yet even that they would grab at just
to feel accepted

Because:
1. They wanted the Messiah to be a Jew, A RACIAL THING!! But as prophesized, he was FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN (lineage of Abraham).

yeah right!!! I would say that the ishmaelites wanted to have a prophet of their own just like the Israelites and in the end they ended up creating one, now any scripture that remotely sounds as if it related to their prophet they hold on too but anything that goes against...........well , it was changed by man....

Pal,
You haven't responded to the issues raised, just ranting and raving.