The Religion Discussion

[Dizzy28]

^ Okay my bad..all living Dominion.

[AdamB]

^ Okay my bad..all living Dominion.

Again, it's specific to "upon the Earth". It would not include aliens in outer space or other planets / galaxies.

[RBphoto]

^ Okay my bad..all living Dominion.

Again, it's specific to "upon the Earth". It would not include aliens in outer space or other planets / galaxies.

Did Allah make aliens or did they make him?

[AdamB]

Quran Ch1:1 "All praise is due to Allah, The Lord of ALL the WORLDS (ALL CREATION)".

[RBphoto]

^^^ Did he specifically make aliens? If there was no more to be revealed, then Momammed should have said something about aliens. If an Alien ship lands on earth, what religion will claim dominion to their souls?

[Dizzy28]

^^^ Did he specifically make aliens? If there was no more to be revealed, then Momammed should have said something about aliens. If an Alien ship lands on earth, what religion will claim dominion to their souls?

What if they claim they created us a la Prometheus? Then they become God.

[AdamB]

How 'bout we cross that bridge when we meet it!

[marlener]

In my opinion it is not our responsible to convert people,that is the job of the Holy Spirit.What we are required to do is to share our experiences,if one is sincere then God will reveal to them what they need to know.There are persons who have studied greek and other languages which the original scriptures were written in and be better able to explain the intended meaning.Make no mistake though a person who is sincere and allows god to use them is capable of understanding and sharing with those who are willing to learn far better than the educated who may not be a genuine and sincere.Others may disagree but I can support what I say via the bible and have seen it several times for myself.

[megadoc1]

However, the meaning of what I say may be misinterpreted due to imperfect English language and imperfect beings deriving their understanding of what was said.

not because you are unable to command the language or clearly state what you want to say so that people can understand ,means that the language is imperfect! its just failure on your part

Kinda like interpretation of religious scriptures by those not qualified to interpret and explain...

just like how you do with the bible? do you consider yourself qualified? and can you tell us what makes one qualified?

Kinda like interpretation of religious scriptures by those not qualified to interpret and explain...

how is religious scripture meant for everyone and considered perfect when it requires "those qualified to interpret and explain" it?

What if a newly converted person takes a religious text back to his people in his native land in a bid to convert those back home. If there are no "qualified persons to interpret and explain", then they will be left to come up with their own interpretations and explanations, not so?

and I direct this to any religion

the christian religion teaches that the bible was written by men through the Holy spirit,and its the Holy spirit that teaches .. it is written, "man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God".....think of it like this Duane,
the bible is the word of God that's written down!!!! by those who heard and was chosen to do so but all Christians are called to listen to God too daily! so the bible is there for reference but the christian walk is really one that is done by allowing God to direct on steps..with that said it is possible for someone who never had a bible to know God more than some of us who have it available ..I kinda in a hurry so if I am not clear I will fix later

[megadoc1]

In my opinion it is not our responsible to convert people,that is the job of the Holy Spirit.What we are required to do is to share our experiences,if one is sincere then God will reveal to them what they need to know.There are persons who have studied greek and other languages which the original scriptures were written in and be better able to explain the intended meaning.Make no mistake though a person who is sincere and allows god to use them is capable of understanding and sharing with those who are willing to learn far better than the educated who may not be a genuine and sincere.Others may disagree but I can support what I say via the bible and have seen it several times for myself.

you say you support what you say via the bible do yo mind posting those support at least for those who holds to the bible?

[marlener]

John 14:26,16:5-16 Tell of the work of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2 shows what can be done with infilling by the Holy Spirit(bear in mind that they never learnt these languages before).
Act 4 Peter and John before the Sanhedrin specially like 13,15,16.
Act 7:54-57 Tells of Stephen experience while filled with the Holy Spirit.
most of the disciples were uneducated by the standards of the day yet when they were filled with the Holy Spirit the learnt were amazed.
Just saying while schooling and and study of theology is good,giving way to the Holy Spirit is far better,If the two can be combined that even better.
Megadoc I agree totally with you about the daily walk with God as it develops a relationship that can be learnt or taught.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

with that said it is possible for someone who never had a bible to know God more than some of us who have it available ..

interesting

I assume I can replace "bible" with any other religious text there and the statement will hold true?

[megadoc1]

with that said it is possible for someone who never had a bible to know God more than some of us who have it available ..

interesting

I assume I can replace "bible" with any other religious text there and the statement will hold true?

yes! sure because I am talking about Christians (or persons who heard and believe in Jesus) they can walk in awareness of God without the bible or any other religious text you wish to replace "bible" with you see you think the bible is like the other religious text but its not so.
the bible is like a testimony to help others to walk and hear from God themselves! its not merely a book of rules like some think, even Jesus had to address the pharisees on how they viewed the religious text (that is the torah or the old testament) this is what he said to themJohn 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. the bible is for helping a believer to walk in oneness with God!! its like a reference point or it can be like a Christians’ barometer of what is legitimate or not, however,revelation is only possible with the help of the Holy spirit who brings the word to life, also If a person is walking with the spirit they would know all that they need to know even without the bible or any other religious text you wish to replace the the word "bible" with...

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ that's not what I meant

i meant if a Hindu can say "it is possible for someone who never had a Gita to know God more than some of us who have it available"

or a Jew to say "it is possible for someone who never had a Torah to know God more than some of us who have it available"

does your statement stay true there too?

[RBphoto]

How 'bout we cross that bridge when we meet it!

So.. you seem pretty certain that there are no such thing as aliens... or that their spaceship would be a gigantic kabba

[megadoc1]

^ that's not what I meant

i meant if a Hindu can say "it is possible for someone who never had a Gita to know God more than some of us who have it available"

or a Jew to say "it is possible for someone who never had a Torah to know God more than some of us who have it available"

does your statement stay true there too?

Duane,the statement I made is regarding Christianity ,so my answer to your question would be yes, it is possible for a Hindu to hear of Jesus and believe, and it is also possible for a Jew to come to faith in Christ as the messiah(I think you meant Jew in terms of someone who practice Judaism because there are christian Jews! in fact the firsts of Christians were Jews) If you reread what I quote of Jesus, he is making the claim to the "Jews" that what they read or believe concerning the scriptures should lead them to HIM (Jesus) as it is he the Jewish scriptures testifies about!!! (BTW Duane the torah is the old testament in the bible )difference between the "Jew" (or someone who practice Judaism )and the christian is that one believes that the messiah has come whilst one is still looking forward to his coming

Duane, my comments are from a christian perspective or worldview,if you reread it I started of saying ,"the christian faith teaches"..you will find yourself in difficulty the moment you took what I said and attempt to apply it to another religion
its like using the bible and dictating to the other religions ,stuff that's only applicable to those that adhere to the christian faith and I know you wont wanna be found doing just that!

my reason for stating that it is possible for a believer without the bible to know God more than someone who have the bible, its because of the Holy spirit that indwells them when they believe and their level of relationship which raises awareness(or knowing)..now if the other religious groups made the claim that the Holy spirit indwells them and testifies about Jesus, then do yuh thing! OK!

[AdamB]

Kinda like interpretation of religious scriptures by those not qualified to interpret and explain...

how is religious scripture meant for everyone and considered perfect when it requires "those qualified to interpret and explain" it?

What if a newly converted person takes a religious text back to his people in his native land in a bid to convert those back home. If there are no "qualified persons to interpret and explain", then they will be left to come up with their own interpretations and explanations, not so?

and I direct this to any religion

Islam teaches to call people to GOD with even the most minute amount of knowledge that one has. However, it also encourages to seek knowledge before anything else TO KNOW GOD.

So to answer your question, in the past when we didn't have the technology and level of communication that we have today, it was possible to interpret and explain as you have suggested BUT whoever would have been undertaking that task would have sought his knowledge first and then take it to the people. Muslim rulers used to send their most knowledgeable men to call people to GOD. That is how Islam spread to Indonesia, etc. In those days men used to memorize the Quran and hadith (sayings of the prophet) by the thousands.

The muslim converting this person would have made it clear to him what was allowed in worship and what was not. Also, most importantly, what would take someone out of the fold of islam. Those would have been the things to stay away from.

Those who deviate do so seeking their desires that stray away from the established teachings of the prophet who has conveyed the message to the people. If anyone thinks they can do better then they are really saying that the prophet didn't fulfill completely what he was sent to deliver or that he left out something. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT SO!!

[AdamB]

In my opinion it is not our responsible to convert people,that is the job of the Holy Spirit.

Then why did GOD send prophets to people in different times and places? Why send Jesus (and Noah, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad)? Why not the Holy Spirit alone to seek out the sincere ones and inhabit/possess them?

I respectfully disagree because:

1. GOD is not here, there and everywhere. HE does not need to be. Or if HE is, then HE would already be in people, so there would be no need to send the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is GOD (according to Christians) who is already there.

2. That would be biased and UNJUST to only guide the sincere ones and leave everyone else wandering in misguidance. People change when true guidance comes to them, even the evil, insincere ones. Proof - one of the 2 men who were on the cross next to Jesus.

[AdamB]

^ that's not what I meant

i meant if a Hindu can say "it is possible for someone who never had a Gita to know God more than some of us who have it available"

or a Jew to say "it is possible for someone who never had a Torah to know God more than some of us who have it available"

does your statement stay true there too?

The answer is NO when it comes to ISLAM and Judaism. I don't know about Hinduism but it is mostly christians who reinvent the wheel over and over again, misguidance upon misguidance. Hint, it started with Paul...

Those who think that they have been possessed of the Holy Spirit are deluded or were possessed by a jinn (spirit) that is NOT GOD. It is only a claim, mr burden of proof (Duane) you should remind them.

[AdamB]

Duane,the statement I made is regarding Christianity ,so my answer to your question would be yes, it is possible for a Hindu to hear of Jesus and believe, and it is also possible for a Jew to come to faith in Christ as the messiah(I think you meant Jew in terms of someone who practice Judaism because there are christian Jews! in fact the firsts of Christians were Jews) If you reread what I quote of Jesus, he is making the claim to the "Jews" that what they read or believe concerning the scriptures should lead them to HIM (Jesus) as it is he the Jewish scriptures testifies about!!! (BTW Duane the torah is the old testament in the bible )difference between the "Jew" (or someone who practice Judaism )and the christian is that one believes that the messiah has come whilst one is still looking forward to his coming

That is your opinion. Why then did the Jews reject Jesus? Why didn't they recognize him when the "Messiah" was described to them?

Their description of the Messiah in the Old Testament more closely fits Muhammad. Also, during the baptism of Jesus, the mentioning of "another" prophet (other than the Christ) to come. Check it and compare.

They say jesus is GOD but he had to be baptized and called a prophet, well that discussion is for another time.

[nismotrinidappa]

if you would understand and open your mind and actually listen.. you would see the truth.. god sent his son jesus who became flesh and blood in order to save mankind.. in the old testament god communicated with his people more directly and they didnt listen... and most went to hell.. remember people are born with original sin.. so jesus came on to earth to fulfill prohecy spoken many years before his coming..the only way he could save us was to actually challenge satan, live as a human, fight the earthly and physical lusts of the flesh and material lusts, conquer it hence conquering satan rule on the earth and take back the keys of the gates of hell..

now listen some more... jesus could not just get up one morning and say be healed. he was a human just like us.. if you read scripture properly you would see that after he was baptized and receieved the holy spirit. he then had the power of the holy spirit from god.. however. he went into the wilderness and fine tuned, beat and conquered the lusts of the flesh and temptation from satan. only when this was done and he activated his holy spirit anointing that he returned full of power and started his ministry casting out demons healing the sick etc.. all this is written in scripture.. scripture says when he came back back the demons knew him.. thats right.. the demons know and fear god. and when you have the power of god they know and fear you too.

thats the example of life that we are supposed to follow. thats why we read his word . his word gives authority over any evil or sickness..and thats the reason that you fast.so that the spirit can conquer the flesh. and then activate your anointing more, to do his work and serve god.. on this world.

[Kasey]

^^thats not logical bro. Cool story tho.

Which religion is right, and can you prove it?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

1. GOD is not here, there and everywhere.

I thought God was omnipresent?

Kinda like interpretation of religious scriptures by those not qualified to interpret and explain...

how is religious scripture meant for everyone and considered perfect when it requires "those qualified to interpret and explain" it?

What if a newly converted person takes a religious text back to his people in his native land in a bid to convert those back home. If there are no "qualified persons to interpret and explain", then they will be left to come up with their own interpretations and explanations, not so?

and I direct this to any religion

Islam teaches to call people to GOD with even the most minute amount of knowledge that one has. However, it also encourages to seek knowledge before anything else TO KNOW GOD.

So to answer your question, in the past when we didn't have the technology and level of communication that we have today, it was possible to interpret and explain as you have suggested BUT whoever would have been undertaking that task would have sought his knowledge first and then take it to the people. Muslim rulers used to send their most knowledgeable men to call people to GOD. That is how Islam spread to Indonesia, etc. In those days men used to memorize the Quran and hadith (sayings of the prophet) by the thousands.

The muslim converting this person would have made it clear to him what was allowed in worship and what was not. Also, most importantly, what would take someone out of the fold of islam. Those would have been the things to stay away from.

Those who deviate do so seeking their desires that stray away from the established teachings of the prophet who has conveyed the message to the people. If anyone thinks they can do better then they are really saying that the prophet didn't fulfill completely what he was sent to deliver or that he left out something. THAT IS SIMPLY NOT SO!!

if what you say is true , why then are there so many different sects of Islam? Shia, Sunni, Sufi etc

each of them, up to this day, think their way is the right way and the only way.

where is their proof?

[megadoc1]

Duane,the statement I made is regarding Christianity ,so my answer to your question would be yes, it is possible for a Hindu to hear of Jesus and believe, and it is also possible for a Jew to come to faith in Christ as the messiah(I think you meant Jew in terms of someone who practice Judaism because there are christian Jews! in fact the firsts of Christians were Jews) If you reread what I quote of Jesus, he is making the claim to the "Jews" that what they read or believe concerning the scriptures should lead them to HIM (Jesus) as it is he the Jewish scriptures testifies about!!! (BTW Duane the torah is the old testament in the bible )difference between the "Jew" (or someone who practice Judaism )and the christian is that one believes that the messiah has come whilst one is still looking forward to his coming

That is your opinion.

I know it was I who made the post...duh

Why then did the Jews reject Jesus? Why didn't they recognize him when the "Messiah" was described to them?

all you needed to do was take a read of the bible ok! the answer is in there

Their description of the Messiah in the Old Testament more closely fits Muhammad.

well then logic dictates that I return your own question , to you !!Why then did the Jews reject Muhammad ? Why didn't they recognize him when the "Messiah" was described to them?

Also, during the baptism of Jesus, the mentioning of "another" prophet (other than the Christ) to come. Check it and compare.

can you quote this mentioning of another prophet to come? for the sake of clarity..

They say jesus is GOD but he had to be baptized and called a prophet, well that discussion is for another time.

lol if you think calling someone a prophet or baptizing them disqualifies them from being God then your view of God is very limited

[megadoc1]

In my opinion it is not our responsible to convert people,that is the job of the Holy Spirit.

Then why did GOD send prophets to people in different times and places? Why send Jesus (and Noah, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad)? Why not the Holy Spirit alone to seek out the sincere ones and inhabit/possess them?

adam b its obvious you are not clear on what Marlene is trying to say ...why not ask her to explain it to you?

I respectfully disagree because:

1. GOD is not here, there and everywhere. HE does not need to be. Or if HE is, then HE would already be in people,so there would be no need to send the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is GOD (according to Christians) who is already there.

are you saying that its because of the christian doctrine you draw the conclusion that God can't be everywhere? why not bring your point using what Islam teaches? why are you making it seems as if your worldview is governed by the christian faith?

2. That would be biased and UNJUST to only guide the sincere ones and leave everyone else wandering in misguidance. People change when true guidance comes to them, even the evil, insincere ones. Proof - one of the 2 men who were on the cross next to Jesus.

are you admitting the fact that Jesus was crucified? this is totally against the teachings of Islam..lol you just gave proof that the quran was wrong on this?

[d spike]

That would be biased and UNJUST to only guide the sincere ones and leave everyone else wandering in misguidance. People change when true guidance comes to them, even the evil, insincere ones. Proof - one of the 2 men who were on the cross next to Jesus.

You have just contradicted yourself.
Of the two thieves, one is known as the "Good Thief", and tradition ascribes the name St. Dismas to him.
When the other thief mocked Jesus, ol' Dismas chided him, then asked Jesus to remember him.
You state "People change when true guidance comes to them, even the evil, insincere ones" and claim St. Dismas to be such an example... yet how do you explain the other thief? Why did "true guidance" not come to him? Was he not evil nor insincere enough? Or does God pick and choose whom He gives "guidance"?

...but just before that, you said, "That would be biased and UNJUST to only guide the sincere ones and leave everyone else wandering in misguidance."

Why was the other thief not "guided"?
Simply because of one word:
COMPASSION.
You refuse to accept that LOVE is the most important thing in this world, placing obedience and faith above all else.

Nothing, NOTHING, Jesus did shows that love supersedes all else, as the granting of St. Dismas' wish.
Even the Christian fundamentalists try to argue all sorts of nonsense to justify this act of love.
Dismas was a criminal, a very disobedient person.
He didn't beg forgiveness, or atone for his wrongs.
He admitted that he deserved his punishment and Jesus did not.
He asked that Jesus remember him when he came into his kingdom. (To which Jesus responded that Dismas would be with him in Paradise... does an ordinary prophet have the power to allow harum-scarum into Paradise? Just asking)

Where did Dismas show "true guidance"?
Was he obedient to God's laws?
No, he showed COMPASSION... and as a Muslim, you consider this disobedient scamp's one act of compassion to be of "true guidance"? Worthy of a free one-way ticket to Paradise?
It seems we agree on something.

[marlener]

Firstly I think Christians all agree to God`s Omni present.So it is hardly ever a point of disagreement maybe discussion though. Considering what Duane originally asked,if someone is sincere the spirit of God will direct them to the Bible as it is the written will of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 clearly states why the scripture is given.If a person never had access to the buble and sought sincerely to know God that is different from someone who had the opportunity and rejected it,they will not be able to achieve that close relationship with God and grown in grace.We also need to remember that we have a choice to recieve the Holy Spirit,the teaching of God,The Holy Spirit does not force himself on anyone.
In old testament days God spoke and directed his people in different ways, the burning bush and many other ways including prophets.

[AdamB]

Firstly I think Christians all agree to God`s Omni present.
You seem to be unsure. So what did Jesus mean when he said "OUR FATHER, THOU ART IN HEAVEN"? I am sure there are numerous references to GOD being ABOVE OR IN HEAVEN. What is the obviously understood meaning of this? More importantly, where is you PROOF for Omnipresence?[color=#0000FF][/color]

So it is hardly ever a point of disagreement maybe discussion though. Considering what Duane originally asked,if someone is sincere the spirit of God will direct them to the Bible as it is the written will of God. 2 Timothy 3:16 clearly states why the scripture is given.If a person never had access to the buble and sought sincerely to know God that is different from someone who had the opportunity and rejected it,they will not be able to achieve that close relationship with God and grown in grace.We also need to remember that we have a choice to recieve the Holy Spirit,the teaching of God,The Holy Spirit does not force himself on anyone.
In old testament days God spoke and directed his people in different ways, the burning bush and many other ways including prophets.

Was the burning bush GOD also? Or was it just a bush on fire on Mt Sinai?

Can you quote the references from the Bible with regard to "actually SEEING GOD"?

[AdamB]

Duane,the statement I made is regarding Christianity ,so my answer to your question would be yes, it is possible for a Hindu to hear of Jesus and believe, and it is also possible for a Jew to come to faith in Christ as the messiah(I think you meant Jew in terms of someone who practice Judaism because there are christian Jews! in fact the firsts of Christians were Jews) If you reread what I quote of Jesus, he is making the claim to the "Jews" that what they read or believe concerning the scriptures should lead them to HIM (Jesus) as it is he the Jewish scriptures testifies about!!! (BTW Duane the torah is the old testament in the bible )difference between the "Jew" (or someone who practice Judaism ) and the christian is that one believes that the messiah has come whilst one is still looking forward to his coming

That is your opinion.

I know it was I who made the post...duh
The Jewish scriptures didn't specify Jesus by name. So your claim is just that, a claim. You need to give the description in the Jewish scriptures and then show HOW it refers to Jesus. What I am saying is that if we both do the same, I will be in a higher standing than you in that Muhammad was the one prophesized about.

Why then did the Jews reject Jesus? Why didn't they recognize him when the "Messiah" was described to them?

all you needed to do was take a read of the bible ok! the answer is in there.
Napkin drama again...

Their description of the Messiah in the Old Testament more closely fits Muhammad.

well then logic dictates that I return your own question , to you !!Why then did the Jews reject Muhammad ? Why didn't they recognize him when the "Messiah" was described to them?
Because:
1. They wanted the Messiah to be a Jew, A RACIAL THING!! But as prophesized, he was FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN (lineage of Abraham).

2. It was written in their book but they changed it, the name Ahmad was written as it was written in the Bible.

Also, during the baptism of Jesus, the mentioning of "another" prophet (other than the Christ) to come. Check it and compare.

can you quote this mentioning of another prophet to come? for the sake of clarity..
Check John 1:21 "Are you Elijah? No. Are you that/the prophet? No." Then who was the prophet spoken about and expected? Is there another prophet still to come or was Muhammad THAT PROPHET?

They say jesus is GOD but he had to be baptized and called a prophet, well that discussion is for another time.

lol if you think calling someone a prophet or baptizing them disqualifies them from being God then your view of God is very limited

It is only NOW that the word PROPHET is used loosely for every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants to open a church to make money but in the past it was used to mean A MESSENGER SENT / CHOSEN BY GOD TO CALL TO THE PEOPLE.
Yes, my view of GOD is limited to what GOD has revealed about HIMSELF, not what people can conjure up in their limited minds. HOW BOLD THEY ARE!!

Can you tell us what was the concept or VIEW OF GOD in OLD TESTAMENT DAYS? Did GOD change or did people change their view of HIM (to suit their desires - pagan beliefs)?

[AdamB]

That would be biased and UNJUST to only guide the sincere ones and leave everyone else wandering in misguidance. People change when true guidance comes to them, even the evil, insincere ones. Proof - one of the 2 men who were on the cross next to Jesus.

You have just contradicted yourself.
Of the two thieves, one is known as the "Good Thief", and tradition ascribes the name St. Dismas to him.
When the other thief mocked Jesus, ol' Dismas chided him, then asked Jesus to remember him.
You state "People change when true guidance comes to them, even the evil, insincere ones" and claim St. Dismas to be such an example... yet how do you explain the other thief? Why did "true guidance" not come to him? Was he not evil nor insincere enough? Or does God pick and choose whom He gives "guidance"?

...but just before that, you said, "That would be biased and UNJUST to only guide the sincere ones and leave everyone else wandering in misguidance."

Why was the other thief not "guided"?
Simply because of one word:
COMPASSION.
You refuse to accept that LOVE is the most important thing in this world, placing obedience and faith above all else.

Nothing, NOTHING, Jesus did shows that love supersedes all else, as the granting of St. Dismas' wish.
Even the Christian fundamentalists try to argue all sorts of nonsense to justify this act of love.
Dismas was a criminal, a very disobedient person.
He didn't beg forgiveness, or atone for his wrongs.
He admitted that he deserved his punishment and Jesus did not.
He asked that Jesus remember him when he came into his kingdom. (To which Jesus responded that Dismas would be with him in Paradise... does an ordinary prophet have the power to allow harum-scarum into Paradise? Just asking)

Where did Dismas show "true guidance"?
Was he obedient to God's laws?
No, he showed COMPASSION... and as a Muslim, you consider this disobedient scamp's one act of compassion to be of "true guidance"? Worthy of a free one-way ticket to Paradise?
It seems we agree on something.

To answer your possibly rhetorical question, I put TRUTH (in belief) and OBEDIENCE above LOVE.

Could you answer this truthfully (due to your many many years of observation I presume): Do (most) christians obey and believe in GOD because they LOVE HIM or (think) that they have developed a LOVE for HIM or love of salvation?

Does the LOVE come first or belief then love?