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AdamB wrote:Kasey wrote:Why do you constantly put human limitations and blatantly say you undersatand God or the concept of it?
Do you not know that human limitations, compared to God is also infinite?
So because you don't understand GOD, HE can be anything and everything you can imagine?
Muslims only say about GOD that which HE has informed us about HIMSELF. We have firm proof from our scriptures to back up what we claim. Others use shaky, weak evidence for their claims.
That is how it is!
mamoo_pagal wrote:AdamB wrote:Duane,
Muslims are not oblivious of philosophical ideas and innovated practises in religion. We are well aware of these, many muslims groups have deviated and delved deep into these, just google SUFISM.
Christians, as evident from Dspike's rantings, have also done this. The difference is that the knowledge has been lost or corruptedmake up your mind, which one is it lost or corrupted? Based on which one you choose can you identify what information was lost or which section was corrupted? Remember you need to have the original information to compare and contrast and the one's on the right path were executed centuries ago. Now they seem to have their flock in awe of their putrid ideas. The core of their belief system is based on philosophic ideas. How come the Jews don't have this also? Because they held fast to their scriptures (Torah), although they changed some laws to suit their desires. However they maintained the correct concept of GOD, well most of them.
AdamB wrote:mamoo_pagal wrote:AdamB wrote:Duane,
Muslims are not oblivious of philosophical ideas and innovated practises in religion. We are well aware of these, many muslims groups have deviated and delved deep into these, just google SUFISM.
Christians, as evident from Dspike's rantings, have also done this. The difference is that the knowledge has been lost or corruptedmake up your mind, which one is it lost or corrupted? Based on which one you choose can you identify what information was lost or which section was corrupted? Remember you need to have the original information to compare and contrast and the one's on the right path were executed centuries ago. Now they seem to have their flock in awe of their putrid ideas. The core of their belief system is based on philosophic ideas. How come the Jews don't have this also? Because they held fast to their scriptures (Torah), although they changed some laws to suit their desires. However they maintained the correct concept of GOD, well most of them.
CORRUPTION = LOST KNOWLEDGE!!!
Commandment #1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Corruption #1: Thou shalt have at least 2 other gods before me.
Commandment #2: Thou shalt not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Corruption #2: Thou shalt not make for yourself a carved imageexcept for the cross, Jesus the Son of God or Mary the Mother of GOD, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
AdamB wrote:Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:I NEVER said Muslims are oblivious of philosophical ideas or of anything.AdamB wrote:Duane,
Muslims are not oblivious of philosophical ideas and innovated practises in religion. We are well aware of these, many muslims groups have deviated and delved deep into these, just google SUFISM.
Christians, as evident from Dspike's rantings, have also done this. The difference is that the knowledge has been lost or corrupted and the one's on the right path were executed centuries ago. Now they seem to have their flock in awe of their putrid ideas. The core of their belief system is based on philosophic ideas. How come the Jews don't have this also? Because they held fast to their scriptures (Torah), although they changed some laws to suit their desires. However they maintained the correct concept of GOD, well most of them.
I said that YOU are oblivious and bigoted. You continue to bad talk other religious beliefs even though you admit that you have never read their texts or understand their teachings.
Your opinion is your opinion. You are clearly oblivious of the knowledge I have gained in Islam about GOD and man. For the purpose of this thread's discussion I present the views of Islam not my personal opinion.
Who eh like it and who vex loss!!!
One day you will have no excuse that you didn't get the heads up...
d spike wrote:Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:I disagreed spike wrote:This much is obvious.AdamB wrote:I go through life just fine without your philosophical innovated ideas.
Depends on what your accepted definition of "just fine" is. Oblivious and content can hardly be considered "just fine".
Ignorance is not bliss IMO
AdamB wrote: Or some may be "pious" (like the catholic church) but they change with GOOD INTENTIONS!
What absolute nonsense. Your "proof" of this?
Besides, this clearly describes ol' Luther... and he certainly didn't represent the Catholic faith.megadoc1 wrote: I was reading some of your post in another ched years ago and you said that religion is a subset of society or culture cant remember exactly how it go...
In order to understand what that was about, one has to (for the sake of argument) stop thinking about religion as your relationship with the God you believe in, and consider religion as MAN'S relationship with whatever concept that might be had of a supreme being - in other words, it doesn't matter which one is the "True" or "Right" one.
How does such a religion get started?
... a nomadic patriarch hears voices... a teacher makes a flame appear in his hand... a minor government official realizes how others should be treated... a wealthy prince gives up everything... an itinerant preacher draws crowds... a desert nomad sees an angel...
Someone has to start it.
That person did not exist in isolation. Who ever he was, he had a language, a tribe or people who had their own idiom, customs...
...and their thoughts, writings and preaching reflects all that.
Just for the sake of argument, let us assume Jesus was a modern Trini... would the items used at the Last Supper have been bread and wine? Christians the world over in the future would be consecrating roast-bake and cold Carib... if he came 1000 years ago, then the same gang would be sharing cassava bread and fermented cassava-juice...
In the harsh climate of the Middle East, where firewood is a premium and scarce resource for nomadic folk, any meat that contained parasites which could very likely survive limited cooking would be dangerous to consume - is it any surprise that Judaism and Islam consider eating pork taboo? Soap and water were in short supply, so Jews consider it wrong to cook milk and meat with the same utensils, and the Koran explains how and with what one should wipe one's bottom.
While religious folk love to prate about how their religion supersedes all else, the fact remains that religion is born within a culture, and so it carries the traits of that culture wherever it spreads, to the point where it can even be confused or melded with the culture, creating a "chicken or the egg" syndrome, such as is the case with Islam.
That is not to say that this link cannot be changed - Christianity is an example of this. It can be argued however, that this change wasn't voluntary, but simply a result of the moving away from its Judaic base to include large groups of Gentiles with a Greek and Roman culture.
This concept or religion being a subset of culture helps explain a lot about the differences between the world's major religions. What do you think?
no proof of change no care!AdamB wrote:
Christians, as evident from Dspike's rantings, have also done this. The difference is that the knowledge has been lost or corrupted and the one's on the right path were executed centuries ago. Now they seem to have their flock in awe of their putrid ideas. The core of their belief system is based on philosophic ideas. How come the Jews don't have this also? Because they held fast to their scriptures (Torah), although they changed some laws to suit their desires. However they maintained the correct concept of GOD, well most of them.
if so how you know what is lost?AdamB wrote:CORRUPTION = LOST KNOWLEDGE!!!
AdamB wrote:
Commandment #1: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Corruption #1: Thou shalt have at least 2 other gods before me.
Commandment #2: Thou shalt not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
Corruption #2: Thou shalt not make for yourself a carved imageexcept for the cross, Jesus the Son of God or Mary the Mother of GOD, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
AdamB wrote:Duane,
Muslims are not oblivious of philosophical ideas and innovated practises in religion. We are well aware of these, many muslims groups have deviated and delved deep into these, just google SUFISM.
AdamB wrote:How come the Jews don't have this also? Because they held fast to their scriptures (Torah), although they changed some laws to suit their desires.
AdamB wrote: However they maintained the correct concept of GOD, well most of them.
d spike wrote:Yet another display of ignorance.AdamB wrote:Duane,
Muslims are not oblivious of philosophical ideas and innovated practises in religion. We are well aware of these, many muslims groups have deviated and delved deep into these, just google SUFISM.
This fellow clearly doesn't understand the meaning of philosophy, or Sufism, or both.
Sufism is simply Islamic mysticism, or "the inner or esoteric dimension of Islam". Unfortunately for Sufis, most Muslims consider Islam (as practiced by themselves) to be perfect as is, therefore leaving no room for mysticism... or Sufis.
d spike wrote:AdamB wrote:How come the Jews don't have this also? Because they held fast to their scriptures (Torah), although they changed some laws to suit their desires.
Which laws did the Jews change?
AdamB wrote:d spike wrote:Yet another display of ignorance.AdamB wrote:Duane,
Muslims are not oblivious of philosophical ideas and innovated practises in religion. We are well aware of these, many muslims groups have deviated and delved deep into these, just google SUFISM.
This fellow clearly doesn't understand the meaning of philosophy, or Sufism, or both.
Sufism is simply Islamic mysticism, or "the inner or esoteric dimension of Islam". Unfortunately for Sufis, most Muslims consider Islam (as practiced by themselves) to be perfect as is, therefore leaving no room for mysticism... or Sufis.
http://students.ou.edu/M/Jonathan.D.Mc- ... sophy.html
Sufism (???? ta?awwuf) is a school of esoteric philosophy in Islam, which is based on the pursuit of spiritual truth as a definite goal to attain. In order to attain this supreme truth, Sufism has marked Lataif-e-Sitta (the six subtleties), Nafs, Qalb, Sirr, Ruh (spirit), Khafi and Akhfa. Apart from conventional religious practices, they also perform Muraqaba (meditation), Dhikr (Zikr or recitation), Chillakashi (asceticism) and Sama (esoteric music and dance).
Sufis were Muslims who tried to connect with God through experiences such as dance, music, prayer, poetry, meditation, fasting, and some even through pain of self-flagellation (beating oneself). Their founder was Mevlana Jalaluddin Rumi, a poet and mystic who lived from 1207 - 1273. Sufis brought Islam to the common person in many of the areas that had been conquered or whose rulers had been converted. It was especially popular with both literate and illiterate people in Turkey, Persia, India, and North Africa. Sufis preached that there could be a personal and direct relationship with God, not just through studying of written works and through scholarship.
Rumi was an evolutionary thinker in the sense that he believed that the spirit after devolution from the divine Ego undergoes an evolutionary process by which it comes nearer and nearer to the same divine Ego. All matter in the universe obeys this law and this is due to an inbuilt urge (which Rumi calls love) to evolve and seek enjoinment with the divinity from which it has emerged. Evolution into a human being from an animal is only a stage in this process. The doctrine of the Fall of Adam is reinterpreted as the devolution of the ego from the universal ground of divinity and is a universal cosmic phenomena. This synthesis of evolution and creationism combined was a culmination of the ideas of Plotinus and of previous Muslim philosophers like Al Farabi. The French philosopher Henri Bergson's idea of life being creative and evolutionary is also a little similar. Unlike Bergson, Rumi believes that there is a specific goal to this whole process which is the attainment of God. God is the ground as well as goal of all existence.
AdamB wrote:d spike wrote:AdamB wrote:How come the Jews don't have this also? Because they held fast to their scriptures (Torah), although they changed some laws to suit their desires.
Which laws did the Jews change?
Do the jews currently practise stoning to death for adultery as prescribed by the Torah?
AdamB wrote:Duane,
Muslims are not oblivious of philosophical ideas and innovated practises in religion. We are well aware of these, many muslims groups have deviated and delved deep into these, just google SUFISM.
"It's the repetition of affirmations that leads to belief. And once that belief becomes a deep conviction, things begin to happen." -Claude M Bristolmegadoc1 wrote:I will put to you that the only reason you think the scriptures are corrupted is because in your mind, you try to let is say what you think it should and have suceeded
I respectfully disagreenoyztoyz wrote:i think the religion argument war on a forum is waste of time,
when a man types 100 words someone only reads and responds to 3
this should stop
AdamB if youre a practising muslim your scriptures says a lot of thhings about end of days and gives many signs, many have come to pass already,
the reason you post and argue here, maybe its to try and help ppl
but forget strangers and focus on yourself and your family, get things done that you need to get done, as is clearly outlined in the quran before its too late
and all others no matter what religion you are, its better to have a religion at the end of the day than none at all, because i think overall religions help ppl to be good/better
i think a world without religion may be the sweetest candy shop for the shaytan/devil
noyztoyz wrote:i think the religion argument war on a forum is waste of time,
This is debateable. Some ppl don't spend time outside to interact sufficiently with others, so how would the message reach them? Please note, it is compulsory on muslims to tell people about Islam, via this forum the evidence is being established against some that they can bear witness that the message of Islam was delivered to them.
I think the problem that you are noticing is that people don't show the kind of respect to others online / anonymously that they would on a face to face basis. I may be guilty of that as well in that I tell them as it is. The other part of the problem is that people misread what others are trying to say and the tone with which they are expressing themselves.
AdamB if youre a practising muslim your scriptures says a lot of thhings about end of days and gives many signs, many have come to pass already,
the reason you post and argue here, maybe its to try and help ppl
Yes it is but trying to rescue a drowning man, you need to know how to swim...
but forget strangers and focus on yourself and your family, get things done that you need to get done, as is clearly outlined in the quran before its too late
It is possible to do both.
and all others no matter what religion you are, its better to have a religion at the end of the day than none at all, because i think overall religions help ppl to be good/betteri think a world without religion may be the sweetest candy shop for the shaytan/devil
Kasey wrote:The idea of believing, with one's own choice is what we all (the sane, level headed ones) are talking about. Only AdamB keeps dismissing all who do not share his ideas, damming them to hell, and saying that they will suffer the consequences. That is his opinion, and he does not know that.
This is what all the arguments to AdamB is about. I personally have nothing against any persons beliefs. I believe the Qur'an, the Bible, and the Ramayan has something to teach anyonewho seeks knowledge in them. Some of my best friends (you included) are muslims.
Its when someone tells me that I am doing wrong by being of another religion, is when I have a problem.
Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:"It's the repetition of affirmations that leads to belief. And once that belief becomes a deep conviction, things begin to happen." -Claude M Bristolmegadoc1 wrote:I will put to you that the only reason you think the scriptures are corrupted is because in your mind, you try to let is say what you think it should and have suceeded
Repeat something enough times and you begin to believe it is true.
There is a psychological occurrence where someone may lie or exaggerate about an event and they do it enough times, for years, that eventually their actual memory of the event becomes the lie or exaggeration and nothing else. They no longer have any recollection of the truth.
"repetition of affirmations that leads to belief".
He keeps telling himself the Qu'ran is right and you keep telling yourself that the bible is right.
However believing in something does not make it true.
Not one of you, megadoc1, adamB or bluefete who started this thread, can say, after over 400 pages, that your beliefs are more right than the other, or your book is more right than the other. It has been claimed, but adequately countered each time.
We have all agreed that all sides can't be all right at the same time. However we can agree that all sides can be wrong all at the same time.
AdamB wrote:Kasey wrote:The idea of believing, with one's own choice is what we all (the sane, level headed ones) are talking about. Only AdamB keeps dismissing all who do not share his ideas, damming them to hell, and saying that they will suffer the consequences. That is his opinion, and he does not know that.
This is what all the arguments to AdamB is about. I personally have nothing against any persons beliefs. I believe the Qur'an, the Bible, and the Ramayan has something to teach anyonewho seeks knowledge in them. Some of my best friends (you included) are muslims.
Its when someone tells me that I am doing wrong by being of another religion, is when I have a problem.
Kasey,
I understand what you are saying but think about this: what preceded the scriptures of the hindus? I mean, what did the people follow and believe in before? If no one knew of the existence of GOD and did not believe, then there would have been total culture shock Since no one knew what was before (and we are assuming two things: 1) that was a 'before', 2) that no one knew), no one will also know IF (and only IF) there was a culture shock. This in an assumption. You should not argue based on bit and peices of what you think you know of hindu scriptures. Were there reports of what happened? I dont see how this is relevant if I am living my life for the here and now. I am not living it to 'get reward' or 'get punished'. My limited knowledge of the scriptures has led me to understand that life is not about reward and punishment, or a supreme being, its about doing the right thing by your fellow man, providing for those who depend on you, and helping the world become a better place.
If the people believed in GOD but now new scriptures, concepts, beliefs and ways of worshipping GOD were now presented...what did the people do? Did they accept with open arms? No one rejected? Dont see the point here, or how it is relevant
We all know of human nature to stick with what you have...examples, Noah to his people, Abraham, Jesus to the Jews, Muslims to Christians, Jews and everyone else. dont confuse, again, human nature with human culture. Man follows what we sees. Muslims call to everyone because while previous revelations and prophets were limited to their people, we are commanded to go to all ppl. I guess that's partly why we get the most criticism...among other things...
Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:AdamB wrote:Duane 3NE 2NR wrote:I NEVER said Muslims are oblivious of philosophical ideas or of anything.AdamB wrote:Duane,
Muslims are not oblivious of philosophical ideas and innovated practises in religion. We are well aware of these, many muslims groups have deviated and delved deep into these, just google SUFISM.
Christians, as evident from Dspike's rantings, have also done this. The difference is that the knowledge has been lost or corrupted and the one's on the right path were executed centuries ago. Now they seem to have their flock in awe of their putrid ideas. The core of their belief system is based on philosophic ideas. How come the Jews don't have this also? Because they held fast to their scriptures (Torah), although they changed some laws to suit their desires. However they maintained the correct concept of GOD, well most of them.
I said that YOU are oblivious and bigoted. You continue to bad talk other religious beliefs even though you admit that you have never read their texts or understand their teachings.
Your opinion is your opinion. You are clearly oblivious of the knowledge I have gained in Islam about GOD and man. For the purpose of this thread's discussion I present the views of Islam not my personal opinion.
Who eh like it and who vex loss!!!
One day you will have no excuse that you didn't get the heads up...
LOL you do not know me.
No where in the teachings of Islam does it say one should be narrow minded, bigoted and pompous - yet you hold strongly to those traits.
Dutch approve move to scrap blasphemy law
Dutch authorities have decided to approve a motion abandoning a law under which it is a crime to insult God. A majority of parties in parliament said the blasphemy law was no longer relevant in the 21st Century. The legislation, introduced in the 1930s, has not been invoked in the last half century.
However, it still remains illegal under Dutch law to be disrespectful to police officers or to insult Queen Beatrix, the country's monarch. Freedom of speech is a much-cherished right in the liberal and traditionally tolerant Netherlands.
The BBC's Anna Holligan, in The Hague, says that there was much debate about the issue after a Dutch court ruled that the far-right anti-Islam politician Geert Wilders should be allowed to criticise Islam, even if his outspoken opinions offended many Muslims.
In 2008, a coalition government decided against repealing the blasphemy law in order to maintain support from a conservative Christian political party.
BBC - 29-11-2012
Kasey wrote:AdamB wrote:Kasey wrote:The idea of believing, with one's own choice is what we all (the sane, level headed ones) are talking about. Only AdamB keeps dismissing all who do not share his ideas, damming them to hell, and saying that they will suffer the consequences. That is his opinion, and he does not know that.
This is what all the arguments to AdamB is about. I personally have nothing against any persons beliefs. I believe the Qur'an, the Bible, and the Ramayan has something to teach anyonewho seeks knowledge in them. Some of my best friends (you included) are muslims.
Its when someone tells me that I am doing wrong by being of another religion, is when I have a problem.
Kasey,
I understand what you are saying but think about this: what preceded the scriptures of the hindus? I mean, what did the people follow and believe in before? If no one knew of the existence of GOD and did not believe, then there would have been total culture shock Since no one knew what was before (and we are assuming two things: 1) that was a 'before', 2) that no one knew), no one will also know IF (and only IF) there was a culture shock. This in an assumption. You should not argue based on bit and peices of what you think you know of hindu scriptures. Were there reports of what happened? I dont see how this is relevant if I am living my life for the here and now. I am not living it to 'get reward' or 'get punished'. My limited knowledge of the scriptures has led me to understand that life is not about reward and punishment, or a supreme being, its about doing the right thing by your fellow man, providing for those who depend on you, and helping the world become a better place.
If the people believed in GOD but now new scriptures, concepts, beliefs and ways of worshipping GOD were now presented...what did the people do? Did they accept with open arms? No one rejected? Dont see the point here, or how it is relevant
We all know of human nature to stick with what you have...examples, Noah to his people, Abraham, Jesus to the Jews, Muslims to Christians, Jews and everyone else. dont confuse, again, human nature with human culture. Man follows what we sees. Muslims call to everyone because while previous revelations and prophets were limited to their people, we are commanded to go to all ppl. I guess that's partly why we get the most criticism...among other things...
Kasey wrote:Why do you constantly put human limitations and blatantly say you undersatand God or the concept of it?
Do you not know that human limitations, compared to God is also infinite?
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