The Religion Discussion

[megadoc1]

nah,I not really interested in peoples explanations..........if it's the work of god, it should speak to me all on its own

hey man, good to hear that youre deciding to read the quran.

After you have read it completely, you should be the only active person in this thread with rights to critique islam. Best of luck man.
Every single thing islam requires of a person in this life is referenced to in that book.
You dont have to go any place and ask any mamoo anything and take he word for it and hope shaytan has not touched the honesty of his heart
Because he has touched all of us already
thats why men are what they are today

By this reasoning NO ONE should be questioning Hinduism cuz I am sure there is no one in here or on the whole of Tuner who has read the Vedas, Puranas, Upanishads or Gita. (The Ramayaan is not a Foundational Hindu Text).

very good point!

[AdamB]

DSpike,
Well he said he wasn't a hindu but making bold claims about what they can do with regard to worship. It's SAD that he does this, for the purpose of this discussion I would only accept from affirmed hindus who can provide their proof.

Two statements are WRONG:
1. People (not only hindus) can worship GOD anyhow they want. Who says otherwise need to provide proof!
2. GOD is everywhere and everything. So is GOD filth, faeces, sewer, etc as well?

And if you can worship anything and anyhow, then I would love to see DFC jump in a septic tank and embrace his god, show his love for the decaying biological matter.

I would also love to see those of you Dspike, who agree with him, join him in FELLOWSHIP!!

GET MY POINT!!!!!

[RBphoto]

So Adam... the Kaba, was it not a house of idolatry before? How is facing the Kaba any different from facing, bowing down to/ touching a stone in Hinuism? Is it not just a black stone in the Kabba?

[noyztoyz]

kaba comes from arabic qibla - the direction is the english meaning
its for our direction of prayer

is it an idol?

Back in Muhammad's days they stood on it to make the call for prayer
Would you stand on your idol?

Hadith Bukhari 2 26 667
Narrated 'Abis bin Rabia:
'Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you."

would a man look to an image of his god and say to it it cannot harm or benefit anyone?

[AdamB]

Crossdrilled,
Our GOD has informed us that HE is SEPARATE AND ABOVE ALL CREATION. So after this statement how could a house or stone on this Earth be GOD for us muslims?

We don't use the Kaaba nor the Black Stone as idols or intermediaries between us and GOD. We use the Kaaba only as the point to FACE in worship for UNITY AND ORDER.

[RBphoto]

Crossdrilled,
Our GOD has informed us that HE is SEPARATE AND ABOVE ALL CREATION. So after this statement how could a house or stone on this Earth be GOD for us muslims?

We don't use the Kaaba nor the Black Stone as idols or intermediaries between us and GOD. We use the Kaaba only as the point to FACE in worship for UNITY AND ORDER.

Neither do Hindu or christians facing a cross.. so what makes the Kabba different from a Hindu murti... come again. You seem to disregard the fact that this was once a holy place of worship for polytheist as well, when may disparate religions worshiped in harmony. How do you feel about that?

[AdamB]

Crossdrilled,
Now yuh being untruthful, so what do hindus use their Murtis for? What about the forms they say are GOD like Mother Lakhmi, Hanuman, Shiva,etc. Don't they say GOD looks like these forms when HE wants or in the past?

Why don't you tell us the historical usage of the murti, what the ancestors considered them to be?

And don't Christians say Jesus, a man, is GOD? And don't some of them say Mary is the Mother of GOD?

What do you think about that?

[RBphoto]

No Hindu cares what god looks like. To them god is a formless, eternal, omnipresent, infinite being, to be found everywhere... yes in a cespit or in molten lava or in a gambling house or guest house. If your god is not there, then he is not omnipresent, and I am sorry for you guys. A murti is used in exactly the same way you guys use the Kabba, to unite people in prayer and to focus the mind on an aspect of the formless being. Murti is respected as a religiuos instrument, just like the kabba. Do your homework or tell us how Mohammed Exaulted the moon god Allah, who was just another deiety, mixed it up as he went along with half rememberd Christianity and Juadism, and twisted all of his own rules when he felt fit, just by saying "ok, I hear wrong, I mussbe was listening to the devil, let's reverse what I just said", or when he was greedy for more of the loot from his barbaric plunders. Come on now.. it right there in the quoran ent? Yoyu can do this!!!

[MG Man]

lol @ dizzy
nah boi AdamB, no sudden change. It's been on my list to read for some time. Just haven't gotten around to it. I have some reading time these days. Just finished reading the final book in the Dune series and completed the Rama series (sci fi, nothing to do with religion). No other series on the shelf, so I figured I'd get around to the Koran.......I prefer to read religious texts when I have fewer distractions as well...

Read somewhere that they've been trying to make a Rendezvous with Rama film for years but the studios won't give them proper funding and problems with the script. Morgan Freeman to play Norton. Would be EPIC!!

But then again, the audience today wants Avatar-type action.

Rendezvous was pretty cool but as a movie, I think you're right..........it's more about the human experience than outright action.............it started losing the plot at the 3rd book and I found the 4th pretty anti-climactic...........but I like their take on creation tho.............kinda fits my red-bean in a cup of wet tissue idea

[d spike]

DSpike,
Well he said he wasn't a hindu but making bold claims about what they can do with regard to worship.

And...?
I do not belong to quite a few religions of which I can speak with authority on. Why is it so hard for you to conceive of someone who can learn about a religion without belonging to it? Why do you confuse education and faith?
Besides, he wasn't making BOLD claims - he was stating material that is freely available to all and anyone.

It's SAD that he does this, for the purpose of this discussion I would only accept from affirmed hindus who can provide their proof.

Go easy on the nonsense, please.
1. If there were proof for a religious belief then it would be a fact, and would not require faith to believe.
2. This foolish notion you have to get him to state his religion is silly, and needling him (or anyone else) is as pointless as most of your posts. You just want pre-set targets for you to spit at - you probably have a list of accusations lined up for specific religions in order for you to mechanically respond to statements. I don't blame him for denying being a Hindu, if he is one. I wouldn't tell you my religion either, for the same reasons too. Besides, whether he is stating facts or opinion, he doesn't need to produce religious ID, his facts and opinion are what they are - respond to them... that is called a discussion.
3. Were you not accusing him of being a Hindu? How could you think that he is a Hindu, and at the same time not accept statements from him because you think he isn't? Are you schizophrenic? Make up your mind.

Two statements are WRONG:
1. People (not only hindus) can worship GOD anyhow they want. Who says otherwise need to provide proof!

He did not say ONLY Hindus can worship in such a fashion. Why do you impute that which is not there? All he said was what Hindus do - he never said no one else does.

2. GOD is everywhere and everything. So is GOD filth, faeces, sewer, etc as well?

And if you can worship anything and anyhow, then I would love to see DFC jump in a septic tank and embrace his god, show his love for the decaying biological matter.

I would also love to see those of you Dspike, who agree with him, join him in FELLOWSHIP!!

Thank you for explaining your ignorance of the term omnipresent.
You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about - this is a spirit you are talking about, not some holy man. You are creating limitations for God. Ask yourself, what makes those areas foul, is it the smell, is it the matter? Since when is God affected by such petty, physical things?
For someone who vehemently denies the concept of Incarnation, your concept of God seems quite human.

GET MY POINT!!!!!

No.

In fact, the only thing SAD and WRONG here seems to be on your side of the monitor.

[AdamB]

DSpike,
Well he said he wasn't a hindu but making bold claims about what they can do with regard to worship.

And...?
I do not belong to quite a few religions of which I can speak with authority on.
Islam is certainly not one.

Why is it so hard for you to conceive of someone who can learn about a religion without belonging to it? Why do you confuse education and faith?
Besides, he wasn't making BOLD claims - he was stating material that is freely available to all and anyone.

It's SAD that he does this, for the purpose of this discussion I would only accept from affirmed hindus who can provide their proof.

Go easy on the nonsense, please.
1. If there were proof for a religious belief then it would be a fact, and would not require faith to believe.
I was speaking of proof from the scriptures of the religion.
Are you saying that Christianity and those religions in which you have "authority" have NO PROOF FOR THEIR DOCTRINES / BELIEF SYSTEM FROM THEIR HOLY SCRIPTURES?

2. This foolish notion you have to get him to state his religion is silly, and needling him (or anyone else) is as pointless as most of your posts. You just want pre-set targets for you to spit at - you probably have a list of accusations lined up for specific religions in order for you to mechanically respond to statements. I don't blame him for denying being a Hindu, if he is one. I wouldn't tell you my religion either, for the same reasons too. Besides, whether he is stating facts or opinion, he doesn't need to produce religious ID, his facts and opinion are what they are - respond to them... that is called a discussion.
I don't expect anyone to take info on Islamic doctrine from you, so why should I take Hindu doctrine from a non-hindu. My standards are higher than others, for which I make no apology.

3. Were you not accusing him of being a Hindu? How could you think that he is a Hindu, and at the same time not accept statements from him because you think he isn't? Are you schizophrenic? Make up your mind.

Two statements are WRONG:
1. People (not only hindus) can worship GOD anyhow they want. Who says otherwise need to provide proof!

He did not say ONLY Hindus can worship in such a fashion. Why do you impute that which is not there? All he said was what Hindus do - he never said no one else does.
I did not impute anything. Let me make myself clear, I AM SAYING THAT NO ONE CAN WORSHIP GOD ANYHOW THEY WANT, PROOF IS NECESSARY FOR WORSHIP.

Can you prove that anyone in the Bible worshipped Jesus? Can you prove that anyone in the Bible worshipped GOD using singing and dancing?

2. GOD is everywhere and everything. So is GOD filth, faeces, sewer, etc as well?

And if you can worship anything and anyhow, then I would love to see DFC jump in a septic tank and embrace his god, show his love for the decaying biological matter.

I would also love to see those of you Dspike, who agree with him, join him in FELLOWSHIP!!

Thank you for explaining your ignorance of the term omnipresent.

Show me the word OMNIPRESENT in the Bible. I thought the Lord's prayer went like this:
Our Father, THOU ART IN HEAVEN.

Where thou art? Is the Earth in heaven? Why didn't it say: THOU ART EVERYWHERE? But no, you prefer to follow everything except what is reported from the mouth of Jesus!!

You clearly have no idea of what you are talking about - this is a spirit you are talking about, not some holy man. You are creating limitations for God. Ask yourself, what makes those areas foul, is it the smell, is it the matter? Since when is God affected by such petty, physical things?
Yuh putting words in my mouth? Did I say GOD was AFFECTED by filth?

For someone who vehemently denies the concept of Incarnation, your concept of God seems quite human.

I deny that which has no proof. The god of those who believe in INCARNATION is what seems QUITE HUMAN.

Then, is Hinduism much different than Christianity?

GET MY POINT!!!!!

No.

In fact, the only thing SAD and WRONG here seems to be on your side of the monitor.

Once again, YOUR VIEWS. Sorry, they are WRONG.

Going back to hinduism:

In Hinduism, a murti (Devanagari: मूर्ति), or murthi, or vigraha or pratima[1] typically refers to an image that expresses a Divine Spirit (murta). Meaning literally "embodiment", a murti is a representation of a divinity, made usually of stone, wood, or metal, which serves as a means through which a divinity may be worshiped.[2] Hindus consider a murti worthy of serving as a focus of divine worship only after the divine is invoked in it for the purpose of offering worship.[3] The depiction of the divinity must reflect the gestures and proportions outlined in religious tradition. It is a means of communication with the god or Brahman in Hinduism.[2] Murti is a Sanskrit term which is meant to point to the transcendent "otherness" of the divine[4] when substituted with statue or idol - its inherent meaning is lost since neither is a correct translation of the word murti.

The murti is regarded by some Mahayana Buddhists (e.g. Muktinath) during worship as a point of devotional and meditational focus. Puja of murtis is recommended, especially for Dvapara Yuga,[5] and described in Pañcaratra texts.

Many Hindus believe everything is God and contains the divine energy of God, so everything is worthy of worship be it the Murti, an icon, or nature itself.

Murtis are typically representations of gods in anthropomorphic or zoomorphic forms like Shiva, Ganesha, Rama, Kali, etc. From a religious point of view, these aspects of God are transcendental and have nothing to do with humanness, zoomorphism or even anthropomorphism, for God is eternal, He is 2 or four-handed, but it is rather so that humans are similar to God, but not that God is created by human and humans ascribe to Him human features: "Those who adhere to the Māyāvāda philosophy of anthropomorphism say, "The Absolute Truth is impersonal, but because we are persons we imagine that the Absolute Truth is also a person." This is a mistake, and in fact just the opposite is true. We have two hands, two legs, and a head because God Himself has these same features. We have personal forms because we are reflections of God."). Although Hinduism is commonly represented by such anthropomorphic religious murtis, aniconism is equally represented with such abstract symbols of God such as the Shiva linga and the saligrama.[7] Furthermore, Hindus have found it easier to focus on anthropomorphic icons, as Lord Krishna said in the Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 12, Verse 5,

“ It is much more difficult to focus on God as the unmanifested than God with form, due to human beings having the need to perceive via the senses.

The notion that the term murti is equivalent to the English word "idol" is a misconception. The scholar Steven Rosen notes that early European missionaries were largely responsible for conflating the two terms by informing local Hindus that "idol" was the correct translation for "murti".[10] Furthermore, scholar Diana Eck explains that the term murti is defined in Sanskrit as “anything which has definite shape and limits; a form, body, figure; an embodiment, incarnation, or manifestation.” Thus, the murti is more than a likeness; it is the deity itself taken “form". The uses of the word murti in the Upanishads and the Bhagavad-Gita suggest that the form is its essence."[21] Thus, a murti is considered to be more than a mere likeness of a deity, but rather a manifestation of the deity itself. The Murti is like a way to communicate with the abstract one god (Brahman) which creates, sustains, and dissolves creation.

[RBphoto]

I think you have it down pat there Adam... now what was the problem?

[megadoc1]

I do not belong to quite a few religions of which I can speak with authority on.

Islam is certainly not one.

I don't expect anyone to take info on Islamic doctrine from you, so why should I take Hindu doctrine from a non-hindu. My standards are higher than others, for which I make no apology.

adamb is stating that he would not take Islamic doctrine from a non muslim or Hindu doctrine from a non hindu but all of his doctrine on Christianity comes from non christian sources,hence his misunderstanding and misinterpretation of its scriptures (I can't speak for Hinduism) so why he thinks he is in a position to speak on Christianity or Hinduism, as a non any of them and expects people to take him seriously?

what kinda of fool is he? he has made himself an idiot by his own rules

[RBphoto]

what kinda of fool is he? he has made himself an idiot by his own rules

Nah, no contradiction there.... In their book, if the word of god does not suit your greed and Imperial mandate to subjugate all
other tribes, say that the peaceful statement that you thought god told you was really a whisper from satan, change your doctrine, and slaughter from a side. Rules are for fools!!!

[AdamB]

I do not belong to quite a few religions of which I can speak with authority on.

Islam is certainly not one.

I don't expect anyone to take info on Islamic doctrine from you, so why should I take Hindu doctrine from a non-hindu. My standards are higher than others, for which I make no apology.

adamb is stating that he would not take Islamic doctrine from a non muslim or Hindu doctrine from a non hindu but all of his doctrine on Christianity comes from non christian sources,hence his misunderstanding and misinterpretation of its scriptures (I can't speak for Hinduism) so why he thinks he is in a position to speak on Christianity or Hinduism, as a non any of them and expects people to take him seriously?

Megadoc,
All you do is deflect and defend your guru, both of you in your ignorance and deviation from the truth.

I have said that religions have a basis, called scriptures. So what you follow and what you worship comes from there, from GOD.

Why don't you respond to the issues where I debate you from your own scriptures? But no, you are a reflection of your pack leader, with your tail between your legs, afraid of his bite.

You put a mirror in front of GOD and come up with 3 gods in 1. Why not put 2 mirrors in parallel facing each other and come up with AN INFINITE NUMBER OF gods? The more the merrier. (It's Christmas time...)

[noyztoyz]

sorry to interrupt the discussion,

i would like to learn about hindu's fasting and fasting practices,

could links for scripture reference for this be posted so i cud take a quick read

[RBphoto]

^^^There are many.... from abstaining from all meat, to not eating anything for days only water. then there are things like staying away from salt, to shaving your head as well as other activities. Because of the many varied sects of hindus, I think the most reliable quotes on prescribed fasting should come from the vedas.

[megadoc1]

Megadoc,
All you do is deflect and defend your guru, both of you in your ignorance and deviation from the truth.

up untill now ,I have allowed you to make yourself a fool ,why? because you just don't listen! if you took d spike's advice and read the past pages.you would realize that we don't always agree! but continue being stupid nah at least we know that If you can be in error about the things we know about,the last thing you can expect us to do is listen to you on things you think we don't know about!

I have said that religions have a basis, called scriptures. So what you follow and what you worship comes from there, from GOD.

and because you think its like this,you reason that as long as you can show those scriptures to be corrupted,you condemn the religion as false ?

Why don't you respond to the issues where I debate you from your own scriptures?

you don't think my scriptures are legitimate remember? so why should I waste my time ? you still cant tell me when the scripture that I subscribe to was tampered with or even who did it! so until then there is nothing to debate!

But no, you are a reflection of your pack leader, with your tail between your legs, afraid of his bite.

If only you read past pages...but its ok if you chose to remain foolish! just don't expect me to take you serious

You put a mirror in front of GOD and come up with 3 gods in 1. Why not put 2 mirrors in parallel facing each other and come up with AN INFINITE NUMBER OF gods? The more the merrier. (It's Christmas time...)

don't tote on the things you don't understand, remember it is you who refused to learn....it seems like the only thing you learnt from what was shared is that you need to misunderstand it....anyways thanks for the Christmas greetings

[Kasey]

AdamB IS THE ONLY PERSON WHO DIDNT UNDERSTAND sPIKY'S Theological ANALOGY on the Trinity. sMASH understood it.

[AdamB]

^^^
That is because humans cannot define what GOD is based on an IF or man's intellect.

SMASH understood that Christian creed is based on ignorance.

Most of mankind disbelieve.

Most of religious people worship the Creation.

Most of mankind don't KNOW GOD.

Most of mankind will be in the FIRE.

Best of luck with numbers, it will be crowded and hot down there.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^^^
That is because humans cannot define what GOD is based on an IF or man's intellect.

SMASH understood that Christian creed is based on ignorance.

Most of mankind disbelieve.

Most of religious people worship the Creation.

Most of mankind don't KNOW GOD.

Most of mankind will be in the FIRE.

Best of luck with numbers, it will be crowded and hot down there.

very judgmental

[RBphoto]

I believe that there is a big Kabba in heaven that all rightous muslims go to when they die. It has no windows, so they can be in their blissful ignorance that there are other souls from every other religion in heaven.

[AdamB]

Crossdrilled,
If that is so, then I believe your wife will be there with us worthy "righteous" muslims, if Allah wills.

Where will you be?

[RBphoto]

In Heaven

[AdamB]

^^^
That is because humans cannot define what GOD is based on an IF or man's intellect.

SMASH understood that Christian creed is based on ignorance.

Most of mankind disbelieve.

Most of religious people worship the Creation.

Most of mankind don't KNOW GOD.

Most of mankind will be in the FIRE.

Best of luck with numbers, it will be crowded and hot down there.

very judgmental

Not judgmental, FACT.

We choose our destiny, our place in Paradise or in the Fire.

The Jews believe that they ONLY are the CHOSEN people who will go to heaven. Well, they are only a minute percentage of all of mankind that ever lived. So if they are correct, then it proves my point. But they are wrong. Only a small party of them were on the right path.

Christians believe that a person has to accept Jesus as their lord to enter heaven. Well, they are only a minute percentage of all of mankind that ever lived. So if they are correct, then it proves my point. But they are wrong. Only a small party of them were on the right path.

Hindus believe they will reincarnate until they eventually become one with GOD. If that is so, is there a limited number of souls? Where do the new souls come from (if some would have reached their destination and the population continues to rise)? I'm sure they have a theory, maybe Crossdrilled or Kasey would enlighten us. But if GOD is everything and everything is GOD, then are they already in Paradise?

[RBphoto]

But if GOD is everything and everything is GOD, then are they already in Paradise?

Correct.

[AdamB]

But if GOD is everything and everything is GOD, then are they already in Paradise?

Correct.

That's what I call BLISSFUL IGNORANCE!

[Dizzy28]

I believe that there is a big Kabba in heaven that all rightous muslims go to when they die. It has no windows, so they can be in their blissful ignorance that there are other souls from every other religion in heaven.

[nismotrinidappa]

Christians believe that a person has to accept Jesus as their lord to enter heaven. Well, they are only a minute percentage of all of mankind that ever lived. So if they are correct, then it proves my point. But they are wrong. Only a small party of them were on the right path.


please clarify a bit more? there are millions of christians in the world. what was your point that was proven?

[RBphoto]

But if GOD is everything and everything is GOD, then are they already in Paradise?

Correct.

That's what I call BLISSFUL IGNORANCE!

Why not be happy no matter what your circumstances? You willl be in a constantly blissful state. Detach from earthly wants and desires, nd free your mind. Detachment is not ignorance.