The Religion Discussion

[RBphoto]

^^^^ love it!!! Which book was that?

[Dizzy28]

Beyond Belief: Islamic excursions among the Converted Peoples

[marlener]

@nismotrinidappa while I agree with you and understand what you are saying but you need to remember that quoting scripture for persons who don`t believe or don`t accept the bible doesn't accomplish much.
I have a question to MG man and Dizzy28 do you believe in God? I don`t think that is a difficult question that requires beating around the bush and sarcasm.

[DFC]

Did God create us?
Or did we create God?

Yuh ever think about that?

I got the idea reading Nietzsche's books.

Is God a Human Invention?

[MG Man]

@nismotrinidappa while I agree with you and understand what you are saying but you need to remember that quoting scripture for persons who don`t believe or don`t accept the bible doesn't accomplish much.
I have a question to MG man and Dizzy28 do you believe in God? I don`t think that is a difficult question that requires beating around the bush and sarcasm.

as said here before, I have no reason to believe such a thing as a god exists, at least not in the way that major religions depict one...there is nothing that suggests this whole universe was created by a loving and benign being, solely for the purpose of giving humans a place to live and worship.............nothing is more absurd than the notion that a being created sentient beings for the purpose of following his rules and worshiping it
God is a human concept, born out of an evolutionary solution to the need for said humans to make sense of that which they cannot comprehend

[RBphoto]

Beyond Belief: Islamic excursions among the Converted Peoples

Oh, have not bought this one yet. I cuddling up with "the enigma f arrival" right now.

[Dizzy28]

@nismotrinidappa while I agree with you and understand what you are saying but you need to remember that quoting scripture for persons who don`t believe or don`t accept the bible doesn't accomplish much.
I have a question to MG man and Dizzy28 do you believe in God? I don`t think that is a difficult question that requires beating around the bush and sarcasm.

I have said it a few times in this thread early on. I do believe in a God. I am not atheist.
My belief is in the singular nature of god and I reject the premise that I must accept one particular form to attain salvation.

[DFC]

While Christians and Muslims were still arguing that the earth is Flat and the Universe revolves around the earth, here comes a dude named Aryabhata.

Aryabhata I (476–550 CE) was the first in the line of great mathematician-astronomers from the classical age of Indian mathematics and Indian astronomy. His most famous works are the Āryabhaṭīya (499 CE, when he was 23 years old) and the Arya-siddhanta.

The works of Aryabhata dealt with mainly mathematics and astronomy. He also worked on the approximation for pi.

Aryabhata is the author of several treatises on mathematics and astronomy, some of which are lost. His major work, Aryabhatiya, a compendium of mathematics and astronomy, was extensively referred to in the Indian mathematical literature and has survived to modern times. The mathematical part of the Aryabhatiya covers arithmetic, algebra, plane trigonometry, and spherical trigonometry. It also contains continued fractions, quadratic equations, sums-of-power series, and a table of sines.

The Arya-siddhanta, a lot work on astronomical computations, is known through the writings of Aryabhata's contemporary, Varahamihira, and later mathematicians and commentators, including Brahmagupta and Bhaskara I. This work appears to be based on the older Surya Siddhanta and uses the midnight-day reckoning, as opposed to sunrise in Aryabhatiya. It also contained a description of several astronomical instruments: the gnomon (shanku-yantra), a shadow instrument (chhAyA-yantra), possibly angle-measuring devices, semicircular and circular (dhanur-yantra / chakra-yantra), a cylindrical stick yasti-yantra, an umbrella-shaped device called the chhatra-yantra, and water clocks of at least two types, bow-shaped and cylindrical.



Direct details of Aryabhata's work are known only from the Aryabhatiya.

Gitikapada: (13 verses): large units of time—kalpa, manvantra, and yuga—which present a cosmology different from earlier texts such as Lagadha's Vedanga Jyotisha (c. 1st century BCE). There is also a table of sines (jya), given in a single verse. The duration of the planetary revolutions during a mahayuga is given as 4.32 million years.

Ganitapada (33 verses): covering mensuration (kṣetra vyāvahāra), arithmetic and geometric progressions, gnomon / shadows (shanku-chhAyA), simple, quadratic, simultaneous, and indeterminate equations

Kalakriyapada (25 verses): different units of time and a method for determining the positions of planets for a given day, calculations concerning the intercalary month (adhikamAsa), kShaya-tithis, and a seven-day week with names for the days of week.

Golapada (50 verses): Geometric/trigonometric aspects of the celestial sphere, features of the ecliptic, celestial equator, node, shape of the earth, cause of day and night, rising of zodiacal signs on horizon, etc. In addition, some versions cite a few colophons added at the end, extolling the virtues of the work, etc.

The Aryabhatiya presented a number of innovations in mathematics and astronomy in verse form, which were influential for many centuries. The extreme brevity of the text was elaborated in commentaries by his disciple Bhaskara I (Bhashya, c. 600 CE) and by Nilakantha Somayaji in his Aryabhatiya Bhasya, (1465 CE). He was not only the first to find the radius of the earth but was the only one in ancient time including the Greeks and the Romans to find the volume of the earth.


Place value system and zero
The place-value system, first seen in the 3rd century Bakhshali Manuscript, was clearly in place in his work. While he did not use a symbol for zero, the French mathematician Georges Ifrah explains that knowledge of zero was implicit in Aryabhata's place-value system as a place holder for the powers of ten with null coefficients[13]

However, Aryabhata did not use the Brahmi numerals. Continuing the Sanskritic tradition from Vedic times, he used letters of the alphabet to denote numbers, expressing quantities, such as the table of sines in a mnemonic form.


Approximation of π(Pi)
Aryabhata worked on the approximation for pi (), and may have come to the conclusion that is irrational. In the second part of the Aryabhatiyam (gaṇitapāda 10), he writes:

caturadhikam śatamaṣṭaguṇam dvāṣaṣṭistathā sahasrāṇām
ayutadvayaviṣkambhasyāsanno vṛttapariṇāhaḥ.
"Add four to 100, multiply by eight, and then add 62,000. By this rule the circumference of a circle with a diameter of 20,000 can be approached." [15]

This implies that the ratio of the circumference to the diameter is ((4 + 100) × 8 + 62000)/20000 = 62832/20000 = 3.1416, which is accurate to five significant figures.

It is speculated that Aryabhata used the word āsanna (approaching), to mean that not only is this an approximation but that the value is incommensurable (or irrational). If this is correct, it is quite a sophisticated insight, because the irrationality of pi was proved in Europe only in 1761 by Lambert.


You can read more here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryabhata

Aryabhata, between the years 476–550 , 20 years before the birth of Muhammed, Solved Pi, calculated the perimeter and volume of the earth, also proved the earth was round and spins on its axis, the motions of the solar system and soo much more.

[marlener]

I think that Duane created a very good site and is ironic that anyone who does not believe in something would visit the thread repeatedly and ridicule the beliefs of others and be sarcastic. Unless they are interested in something they don`t believe in. There are over a dozen more threads in the ole talk section alone that deals with areas that you might be a expert on. I consider you to be in the know where certain cars are concerned MG,I understand where Dizzy is coming from and DFC comments and pictures do raise valid questions. Just wonder if you are constructive contributing or just here for the kicks,or searching.What ever the case proceed sir you are welcome here,careful people see you associating urself,less they assume you believe.lol

[MG Man]

marlener:
copied from an earlier part of this ched in case you missed it............your thoughts would be appreciated

God wants me to be an atheist: Simple Logic
An essay by MG Man
God, as defined by (his) believers, is omnipotent and all knowing. (He) knows everything past, present and future. He knows the outcome of every choice. He knows the inner workings of my mind, and since he knows all outcomes, knows every choice I will make, when faced with multiple alternatives.
If you offer me a ripe apple and a Diana Power Mint, he already knows which one I will choose, even if my choice will vary according to day, time, mood and my overall opinion that Nikki Crosby is not funny.
Having said that, there would have been a specific sequence of events that has led me to my current belief system, or lack thereof, depending on how you spin it. At every critical fork in the road and junction, I would have faced choices. However, since god is all knowing and omnipotent, he already knows which choice I will make at each turning point. Interestingly, that in itself calls into question the whole idea of free will. If god already knows my choice and outcome, is my will really free?
Having said that, it is clear that god has always known, even before the creation of Man, that I would be who I am today. He knew beforehand how I would respond to each subtle whisper in my ear, each divine hint placed before me. If a God exists, he knew all along that I would be a atheist. This means he willingly and deliberately created me this way, since it is he who would have sculpted my own unique consciousness to lead me up to this point.
So...the question remains............based on everything said so far, did god make me an atheist? Does he want me to be an atheist? If a god exists, then the only sensible answer is 'yes'. This in itself has disturbing implications for rapists, murderers, albino elephants, dust within the asteroid belt, imperfections on Hubble's first reflector, Traci Lords' early film career and it's implications for those of us still owning VHS tapes of her early work and the potential for jail time etc......

[Sky]

^^^ To add to this..

[MG Man]

^^ cuz gawd let it happen so fiddy would find his faith

[marlener]

The fact that God know what choice you are going to make does not change the fact that you have freedom of choice,secondly you sound a bit confused in you essay on one hand sounding as though you are accepting what you think is God will for you or the other doubt his existence.It can of silly to claim something or someone you believe does not exist is responsible for who you are. Maybe you can just man up and take responsibilty for you action and choices.

[DFC]

When you get in an accident and Didn't die, wait, dont thank God, thank the engineer who developed the seatbelt.

When you're in the hospital , with a complicated problem, hold up, not so fast , thank the Doctors who saved your life.

And to add to Mg's post, God loves Athiests.



Marlener, i just spent 2 hours watching a documentary on the Universe on discovery channel,and this Multiverse is Infinitely amazing, and to think we're just on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.




To think, it all revolves around us, and it was created just for us, is to be seriously deluded.

Do you think our planet needs more prophets or more scientists?

Do hungry children in Africa need baptism and the word of Christ? or do they need food and health care?

Who makes the world a better place, Religious leaders or Scientists?



Morality does not come from religion, morality comes from humanity. And humans invent religions from morality.- christopher hitchens.

[d spike]

The fact that God know what choice you are going to make does not change the fact that you have freedom of choice,secondly you sound a bit confused in you essay on one hand sounding as though you are accepting what you think is God will for you or the other doubt his existence.It can of silly to claim something or someone you believe does not exist is responsible for who you are. Maybe you can just man up and take responsibilty for you action and choices.

Sarcasm is just lost on some people.
marlener, re-read MG's posts, paying close attention to what he is responding TO, rather than what he actually says...
...and then you might see what it is that he is talking about...
...
...
...or you could go back and look at the early parts of this thread (which started before you even joined Tuner) and read his posts then - again paying attention to the remarks that stirs his response.

Or you could do a search for a locked thread, "Did Jesus rise from the dead?" or better yet, another locked thread about Noah's Ark, and you might see MG's position more clearly.

[MG Man]

sigh
now you cans ee why some people need to believe in a religion
if simple english can baffle them so easily. clearly they need a leash and master to lead them along...........now wonder they call themselves sheep

[marlener]

@dfc i agree with you that we are just a just a mote of dust on a sunbeam and to think that it revoves around us is delusional.i think the starving children in Africa need food,health care and God,If you look back you would see that I ask questions based on peoples belief and relationship with God not with their religious leaders.
@dspike I will look back for the pass post,but as I said earlier I don't think MG can just answet a straight question and beat around the bush and prefers to use sarcasm,Reminds me of literature class where you have to figure out what the write intended.Perhaps it's his writing style because I am clear as to what DFC is saying,what you are saying.But maybe just as I missed his sarcasm,he missed my request to avoid sarcasm and state.I know who leads me andI guess he know who leads him. Throw in some metaphors,onomatopoeias and thing and it might qualify for a literary thread.lol
@DFC christopher hitchens statement on morality was his opinion by the way,the dictIonary and google offers other definations that include morality as coming from religion as well.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

@dfc i agree with you that we are just a just a mote of dust on a sunbeam and to think that it revoves around us is delusional.i think the starving children in Africa need food,health care and God,If you look back you would see that I ask questions based on peoples belief and relationship with God not with their religious leaders.

So why do you think that child in Africa does not have God? And a kid in an agnostic family living in secular Australia or Canada (ranked #1 and #2 for best countries to live in) that has more than enough food and health care, how come you don't make it point that they need God?

@DFC christopher hitchens statement on morality was his opinion by the way,the dictIonary and google offers other definations that include morality as coming from religion as well.

yes, there was morality in Greek Mythology too, but why did people stop worshiping those Gods? Is it just because science found out that lightning comes from electrostatic discharges and not from Zeus or Thor and so people stopped believing in them?

the Egyptians were the most advanced civilization of their time and their religion was dominant for 3500 years, now the world treats it as myth and ancient. What will happen to the religions people believe in today (most of which are 2000 to 1500 years old) in 1000 years?

[megadoc1]

marlener, mg man does raises some critical points at times, to be fair to him, he raised some points and I saw some things differently since then.
but if you look at what he is asking or what he is saying here, you would realize what he does.first you have to understand that mg man is an intelligent fellow and his knowledge on religion or Christianity is above average so he is not arguing from ignorance!
but here is the problem, most of mg mans objections to your faith are made by deliberately ignoring parts of your belief systems..that's right! mg man does not communicate back to you what you believe when he raises most of his objections

for instance when nismotrinidappa wrote

to everyone in the thread.. Jesus loves you and wants you to make sure and know him before dying...

this was mg's remark

tell that to the suffering kids in africa who won't live to see their third birthday..........then console their suffering parents
the most twisted / fcuked up song I ever heard was 'Jesus loves the little children'

then we see poor nismotrinidappa go on attempting to teach mg man the basic teachings of the faith....lol the elementary things that mg man already knew about the faith? really? ..lol its obvious he rejects that !
I laugh because I use to fall for the same crap! but I learnt that it takes more effort to come up with such objections to the faith and to maintain them than it is to honestly seek out the reasons or the answers..

so I have resolved to this, as long as someone can raise an objection to my faith, they must be capable of understanding what I believe in the first place,(that includes accepting all that I believe not picking and choosing some and ignoring others or leaning on the ills of those who are contrary to the faith) therefore as long as someone is raising an objection such like the ones that mg raises ,they better be honest enough to convey back to me exactly all what I believe....until then, don't expect to have my attention... because at the end of the day all they gonna do is try to troll you, what is amazing is that most people actually deceive themselves just to do so ...lol

[DFC]

the Egyptians were the most advanced civilization of their time and their religion was dominant for 3500 years, now the world treats it as myth and ancient. What will happen to the religions people believe in today (most of which are 2000 to 1500 years old) in 1000 years?

Duane i was now gonna ask that.

According to Hindu Timeline, we are in Kali Yug and this is going to last 432,000 years. Kali Yug began at Midnight 14 January 3102 BC, and so far, approximately 5000 years has passed. So according to Hindu Timeline, Humanity has 427,000 years again to go.



Marlener, in Christian timeline, how much longer will humanity exist?


The Bible is not explicit on topic of the age of the earth, but Christian Scholars say it is ~6000 years old. Jesus came 2012 years ago. How much longer will humanity exist before Rapture?

In Christianity, god created the Earth in 1 day, is it a 24hour day?
(in Hinduism ,1 day of Brahma is equal to 8.64 billion human years.)


It seems idiotic for God to create the world and the Infinite Universe, for just a few thousand years.
Based on whats happening in the world today and the increasing amount of Athiests, i doubt very much Christianity and Islam and most religions will last another 200 years.

Religions was born in a very dark time, when people, couldnt explain 90% of the world they live in.
Now, Science can tell you what makes thunder and Lightning, science can tell you what is making you ill, science is curing, and science is saving, and Science will bring an end to religion.

Of course humanity needs saviours, back in medieval days it was the Prophets, but in todays world, scientists are our saviours, and Science will bring us Heaven on Earth.

More and more people are having Epiphany's and realizing "Hey i will not hate my neighbor or kill him because a book told me so, thats stupid ! "


At the rate we are progressing, in 200 years, Cancer will be cured, Aids will be cured, Diabetes cured, Scientists will decode the DNA map and will genetically alter/enhance all future babies.
We will have moon colonies, men will walk on mars and Jupiter.
We would have fixed the ozone layer and petrol fueled vehicles would be in museums.

And Religion...well....umm....

[megadoc1]

^so in your worldview, everything seems like its gonna get better in the future except religion? why?

[AdamB]

the Egyptians were the most advanced civilization of their time and their religion was dominant for 3500 years, now the world treats it as myth and ancient. What will happen to the religions people believe in today (most of which are 2000 to 1500 years old) in 1000 years?

Duane i was now gonna ask that.

According to Hindu Timeline, we are in Kali Yug and this is going to last 432,000 years. Kali Yug began at Midnight 14 January 3102 BC, and so far, approximately 5000 years has passed. So according to Hindu Timeline, Humanity has 427,000 years again to go.



Marlener, in Christian timeline, how much longer will humanity exist?


The Bible is not explicit on topic of the age of the earth, but Christian Scholars say it is ~6000 years old. Jesus came 2012 years ago. How much longer will humanity exist before Rapture?

In Christianity, god created the Earth in 1 day, is it a 24hour day?
(in Hinduism ,1 day of Brahma is equal to 8.64 billion human years.)


It seems TO YOUidiotic for God to create the world and the Infinite Universe, for just a few thousand years.
Based on whats happening in the world today and the increasing amount of Athiests, i doubt very much Christianity and Islam and most religions will last another 200 years. MOST RELIGIONS, NOT ALL??
Religions was born in a very dark time, when people, couldnt explain 90% of the world they live in.
Now, Science can tell you what makes thunder and Lightning, science can tell you what is making you ill, science is curing, and science is saving, and Science will bring an end to religion.

Of course humanity needs saviours, back in medieval days it was the Prophets, but in todays world, scientists are our saviours, and Science will bring us Heaven on Earth.

More and more people are having Epiphany's and realizing "Hey i will not hate my neighbor or kill him because a book told me so, thats stupid ! "


At the rate we are progressing, in 200 years, Cancer will be cured, Aids will be cured, Diabetes cured, Scientists will decode the DNA map and will genetically alter/enhance all future babies.IF GOD WILLS.
We will have moon colonies, men will walk on mars and Jupiter.
We would have fixed the ozone layer and petrol fueled vehicles would be in museums.

And Religion...well....umm....

This from the man who "idolizes" the most ancient backward system designed to dominate and keep people down the social ladder.

[megadoc1]

c'mon Adam b, doh beat up on that lets just try to have some discussions going

[AdamB]

Just a reminder, I have more important things to do presently.

[megadoc1]

well use yuh limited time to be pleasant thas all
don't find the time to come here just to insult others

[marlener]

@Duane I believe that they both need God,I was simply responsing to a question asked by Dfc and I am sorry but I can't answet your question concerning greek mythology because I don't know,probably the first time you have heard that in this thread eh.
@Dfc I can't say in the Christian timeline,how much longer humanity will exist,perhaps one of the other contributers might offer an intelligent answer but that is God's call.True in 200 hundred year science might find a cure for all these things but there is a sin problem that science cannot find the cure for,and religions might come and go but God will still be around,hence the reason that I tend to forcus on God and less on man made religion but perhaps you didn't notice.
I did as dspike suggested and looked where he suggested and this is whatI found.


^^ fork dat siht 
get high on LSD and fork dat siht 


Rapture came and went 
ask Debbie Harry  


non be-who??? 
I AM A BELIEVER 
I BELIEVE IN NOTHING 


bredz 
u wanna talk religion here, u gonna get bobolized

jesus died 
end of story 
now put down your stupid storybook and go masturbate

he nuh hating 
he saaaaaaaaaaaaaaving  
can I get a halleluja up inna da house yo


best thing comin out of that whole book was Iron maiden's intro to The Number of the Beast    
Woe to you, o' Earth and Sea......     

Kitteh Saves!

HOLY TUNER WARS               AH LUV EET 

         
megadoc1 can I have sum of what u smokin? 

did Jesus eat a lot of yeast? 
maybe munch a yeasty pumpum? 
might explain the rising..... 
dunno, I'm just sayin....

I for one, am not prejudiced 
I hate EVERYBODY equally

So am I to draw a conclusion on this because I would say that Mg man is either sarcastic and cynical or just chooses to portrays himself that way.But to him who says there is no God well David mentioned him in Ps 14.
But As I said in one of my early post God does not need me to defend him and I am not bothered my the questions and statements directed to me,if I don't know I WILL says so.

[AdamB]

The TRUTH unpleasant?
Insulting others? Then why haven't you told that to MG and others? Very selective Megadoc.

[marlener]

Oh to be fair I only read 17 pages of the thread I was directed to be dspike so It possible that something constructive might have been said on page 18 or maybe I am taking the posts at face value when there is some deeper meaning to it,maybe some can enlighten me dspike.Anyone Dfc,Duane,Kasey,AdamB,Megadoc,nareeshsheep,red fraction,or the author himself MG man.

[megadoc1]

The TRUTH unpleasant?

nope! insults are!

Insulting others? Then why haven't you told that to MG and others? Very selective Megadoc.

no not at all! I am not selective! I was just about to bring up the point that while some claim to have a problem with you belittling other religions, they them self think its OK to do so themselves because they do not hold to any in particular and as long as they do it "across the board" its ok but who is me to query that stupid sort of reasoning? let them be

[DFC]

Well yes, Adamb, i see you're back from the airport.

LOL

^so in your worldview, everything seems like its gonna get better in the future except religion? why?

Yes megadoc, everything is getting better.
Compare things from 1900, to now. Technology is making life easier, healthier and better.
We learn through Trial and error.

Religion is on trial now, and the errors of it are blatantly obvious. Think about it, All the wars in the world today are caused by.........???...... RELIGION.

Atheism is on the rise in the world, 1.5 out of every 4 American are Atheist.
Atheism is growing faster than any religious faith.

Why? Because Church and Mosque condemns homosexuality, pre-marital sex, contraceptives and abortions. Because of the infringement of basic human rights.

Empowerment of Women, Women Rights & Equality, Feminism- are big issues sweeping the modern world and there are laws for it now, EXCEPT in Muslim countries, who treat women worst than dogs.

How long do you think that will last?


The rise of Atheism in the world will-
1) Bring Peace, no religion based wars and segregation. No genocides and ethnic cleansing.
2)Tremendous Scientific Advancement, as humanity's focus will be on technology

These are just some reasons why , in the future, religion will be found in museums only.

Marlener talks about Sin and needing God.

Why do people need God in the first place? Its not like he does come down and share money and powermints every sunday.

Honestly, the great God who has created thousands of millions of galaxies, trillions of earth like planets, katrillions of intelligent life forms, infinite dimensions and etc etc, i dont think he gives a fcuk about a backward, foolish human race, in atom sized earth.When you go running through a field, do you even know how much ants you stomped on? Do you feel for them? Thats how God feels like, we're the ants in the field.

These fundamentalists like Adamb, do not think very much. they will believe 1+1=3 if their book says so. Ignoring the truth punching them in the face. How stupid can one be to live their whole life by the dictates of a contradictory, incomplete book , written thousands of years ago.
Dotish !

Fundamentalists ignore the fact, how minuscule and insignificant we are.
Are the inhabitants or the other planets Muslims too?, Or maybe believe in Jesus Christ?
Allyuh fundies are a dying breed eh, allyuh numbers seriously declining.


More and more people are realizing, that salvation comes from thyself.
Only you can save yourself, meaning you alone is responsible for your own life and being.
Existence of God, of Non-Existence of God to me, personally doesnt matter.
I'm here, i exist, i am a human being on planet earth. I live in a family, in a village, in a country, in an obscure blip of a planet, somewhere on the bottom left of the universe. I dont know if heaven or hell exist, there is no quantitative proof. And making life easy and peaceful, for me, and everyone else is all that matters.
Living in equilibrium, harmony, sheit like that.

Since the beginning of time, all religions have drilled into our heads, the notions of Sin.
Some Religion do it more than others.

Marlener, you say in the future, there is still the problem of sin. You must realise that Sin is a relative term, every religion defines sins differently.

Polygamy is a sin in one religion, but a virtue in the next. Eating Pork is a sin in one religion, but its the norm in another.etc, etc.
Murder in Islam is ok, but with conditions.


In most religions, Murder is a Sin. I say most religions because i know one religion that says murder of a non-believer is good deed.

But we dont need Religion to tell us Murder is a stupid-ass thing to do. Our own conscience can tell us that. "Hey don't kill that guy, its just a jackass thing to do!"

Other sins, greed, jealousy, stems from an in-equal segregated society (which is caused by Religion)
If everyone pretty much have the same amount of everything and everyone exists in a society where there is no racism, or caste-ism or division, then it wont cause a serious problem.




i really dont have the patience to go on with this, because i really kinda drunk now. so i hope what i said made sense.