The Religion Discussion

[Bizzare]

allah must be thanked for giving mankind le booteh !!

[DFC]

This is an Article posted by a person i know on Facebook.
Its an interesting read, with some pertinent questions for Adamb


Belief
The Quran has been preserved and not changed at all since the time it was revealed (as claimed in Quran 15:9)
Counter Evidence
(A) There isn’t a single copy of Quran available today that dates back to the time of prophet. The Tashkent Version (which by the way is 1/3rd of the modern day Quran) and the Sana Mosque manuscripts (only a fraction of some surahs) apart from being incomplete are dated 100+ years after the death of the prophet.
(B) The earliest available partial manuscripts (Sana Mosque) reveal that the Quran verses of today are not exactly the same as the one’s mentioned in these manuscripts

This is FACTUAL EVIDENCE! And a fact doesn’t even need common sense to establish itself. A fact is a fact is a fact!
(C) Though not a pure evidence, but it is important to note that many muslims claim(on account of hadit references) that the previous scriptures of God [the Torah, Injeel etc] have been corrupted.If we treat this claim as an evidence , it can be be rationally conculded that Allah is somehow vulnerable to corruption.If He failed before thrice in preserving his message, there is NO REASON to trust Him when he says that the fourth time he won’t fail ! He is thrice shy
Conclusion
So the fact is that the Quran did change with time and we don’t have a single copy available from the time of Muhammad which means that it was not preserved as Allah promised us.
If evidence is established against our belief we should give up that belief.

Belief
The Quran is the word of God
Counter Evidence
(A) The Quran Verses 58:19-21(known as Satanic Verses) are attributed to Satan! Can you tell me one holy book that has Satan’s commands in it ? When you hold that quran in your hand you are holding at least three commands of Satan in it. Does that sound Divine?
(B) The very first utterance in the Quran is Bismillah. Unfortunately, this verse itself is agreed by Islamic scholars to be a later day addition.

C) Now let’s look at some sahih hadit accounts as to how Muhammad received revelations and more importantly from WHOM?
Muhammad himself says bell is the instrument of Satan
Sahih Bukhari Book 024, Number 5279: Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The bell is the musical instrument of the Satan.

Muhammad telling us that he received revelation as the ringing of a bell!!
Sahih Bukhari Book 1, Number 2: Narrated ‘Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah’s Apostle “O Allah’s Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?” Allah’s Apostle replied, “Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ‘ off after I have grasped what is inspired.


(D) At least three Quranic verses were revealed by Umar and then by Allah
Prophet? Umar revealing Quran
Sahih Bukhari, Book 8, Number 395
Narrated ‘Umar (bin Al-Khattab):
My Lord agreed with me in three things:
1. I said,”O Allah’s Apostle, I wish we took the station of Abraham as our praying place (for some of our prayers). So came the Divine Inspiration: And take you (people) the station of Abraham as a place of prayer (for some of your prayers e.g. two Rakat of Tawaf of Ka’ba)”. (2.125)
2. And as regards the (verse of) the veiling of the women, I said, ‘O Allah’s Apostle! I wish you ordered your wives to cover themselves from the men because good and bad ones talk to them.’ So the verse of the veiling of the women was revealed.
3. Once the wives of the Prophet made a united front against the Prophet and I said to them, ‘It may be if he (the Prophet) divorced you, (all) that his Lord (Allah) will give him instead of you wives better than you.’ So this verse (the same as I had said)was revealed.” (66.5)
(E) The words of God cannot be self-contradicting! But the Quran contradicts itself at many places indicating that it’s a manual endeavor and hence the contradictions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhoAwQoddFM

Conclusion
The Quran has been altered by humans (the introduction of Bismillah), and has Satanic verses in it. What’s more, the prophet has no qualms in accepting that he receives revelations as the ringing of the bell which is considered satanic by no other person than the prophet himself.
Rather than being convinced of its divine origins, the facts actually point to a very unpleasant conclusion that the Quran may have been inspired by Satan
To add to the irony, there’s at least one verse (Quran Verse number 66:5) that is Umar’s VERBATIM contribution to the Quran…What more proof does one need that it’s not the word of God!

Well friends, that is more than enough evidence for a rational mind to conclude that the Quran was neither preserved nor is it perfect. The Question on its divinity is raised not by me but the authentic Islamic scriptures themselves. I hope that you would research this further on your own and arrive at the truth. The rational reader would have already arrived at the same conclusion. However, here are more facts to help you understand :

Even if you leave the above evidences aside, do you know that Quranic verses were canceled/dropped out of the Quran !!

Quranic verse canceled
Sahih Bukhari Book 52, Number 69: Narrated Anas bin Malik: For thirty days Allah’s Apostle invoked Allah to curse those who had killed the companions of Bir-Mauna; he invoked evil upon the tribes of Ral, Dhakwan, and Usaiya who disobeyed Allah and His Apostle. There was reveled about those who were killed at Bir-Mauna a Quranic Verse we used to recite, but it was canceled later on. The Verse was: “Inform our people that we have met our Lord. He is pleased with us and He has made us pleased”

The sane questions to ask here are
How can you call a book perfect and complete when it’s evident that revealed verses were cancelled from the book ?
You very well know that ‘stoning to death” is justified according to hadit sunnah ( Both Iran[Shia] and Saudi[Salafi,Sunni] schools endorse it).But this verse is missing from the Quran! do you still believe that the book is complete?
Do you seriously need more evidences after learning so much already?

Anyways…even if you leave that aside, how can you deny the uncanny similarity of the teaching of zaid bin amr to Islam?..

What! you dint know that? . You would be surprised to learn that Muhammad’s monotheism springs not from Allah but from Zaid bin Amr who himself learned about monotheism from a Christian scholar !!!
Much of Islam has been inspired from Zaid bin Amr bin Nufail who became a hanif after learning about the same from Christians and Jews!

Sahih Bukhari
Book 58, Number 169
Narrated ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar:
The Prophet met Zaid bin ‘Amr bin Nufail in the bottom of (the valley of) Baldah before any Divine Inspiration came to the Prophet. A meal was presented to the Prophet but he refused to eat from it. (Then it was presented to Zaid) who said, “I do not eat anything which you slaughter in the name of your stone idols. I eat none but those things on which Allah’s Name has been mentioned at the time of slaughtering.”

Zaid bin ‘Amr used to criticize the way Quraish used to slaughter their animals, and used to say, “Allah has created the sheep and He has sent the water for it from the sky, and He has grown the grass for it from the earth; yet you slaughter it in other than the Name of Allah. He used to say so, for he rejected that practice and considered it as something abominable. Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Zaid bin ‘Amr bin Nufail went to Sham, inquiring about a true religion to follow. He met a Jewish religious scholar and asked him about their religion. He said, “I intend to embrace your religion, so tell me some thing about it.” The Jew said, “You will not embrace our religion unless you receive your share of Allah’s Anger.” Zaid said, “‘I do not run except from Allah’s Anger, and I will never bear a bit of it if I have the power to avoid it. Can you tell me of some other religion?” He said, “I do not know any other religion except the Hanif.” Zaid enquired, “What is Hanif?” He said, “Hanif is the religion of (the prophet) Abraham who was neither a Jew nor a Christian, and he used to worship None but Allah (Alone)”

Then Zaid went out and met a Christian religious scholar and told him the same as before. The Christian said, “You will not embrace our religion unless you get a share of Allah’s Curse.” Zaid replied, “I do not run except from Allah’s Curse, and I will never bear any of Allah’s Curse and His Anger if I have the power to avoid them. Will you tell me of some other religion?” He replied, “I do not know any other religion except Hanif.” Zaid enquired, “What is Hanif?” He replied, Hanif is the religion of (the prophet) Abraham who was neither a Jew nor a Christian and he used to worship None but Allah (Alone)” When Zaid heard their Statement about (the religion of) Abraham, he left that place, and when he came out, he raised both his hands and said, “O Allah! I make You my Witness that I am on the religion of Abraham.”

Narrated Asma bint Abi Bakr: I saw Zaid bin Amr bin Nufail standing with his back against the Ka’ba and saying, “O people of Quraish! By Allah, none amongst you is on the religion of Abraham except me.” He used to preserve the lives of little girls: If somebody wanted to kill his daughter he would say to him, “Do not kill her for I will feed her on your behalf.” So he would take her, and when she grew up nicely, he would say to her father, “Now if you want her, I will give her to you, and if you wish, I will feed her on your behalf.”

Wouldn’t you ponder over these :
Islam has an uncanny similarity to the teachings of Zaid of whom Muhammad was pretty much influenced. Zaid himself learned about this from the Christians and the Jews
Belief in Abraham as a hanif, Slaughtering of animals in the name of Allah, protecting the girl child was already a religion of Zaid the Hanif.Why did Muhammad created Islam out of it?
Even if you leave that aside, it’s a fact that the people of the book(Jews and Christians) used to share their teachings with the Arabs in Arabic. The bible(injeel) and Torah was pretty much known to Arabs in Muhammad’s time.

Jews taught Torah in Arabic to the Muslims in Muhammad’s time
Sahih Bukhari
Book 92, Number 460
Narrated Abu Huraira: The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah’s Apostle said (to the Muslims). “Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, ‘We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.

Now the questions to ask are :
what makes you believe that Muhammad didn’t know about the stories of the Torah and the Bible when his fellow Arabs knew about these stories themselves?..he was illiterate ..but i am sure you’d agree that he was not deaf ..right?

When there is all the proof that Muhammad had access to Jewish and Christian teachings as well as inspiration from Zaid the hanif ..what makes you so sure that he was divinely inspired ..specially when the only proof of his prophet hood was he himself and no body else ?

Even if you leave the above evidences aside, can you believe that a PERFECT book does not order the chapters in any sane way? ..
The First Revelation of the god of Quran appears in the 96 Sura (chapter) !! The absurdity does not stop here, the last verse revealed is not authoritatively agreed upon!! Apologists Muslims try to play this down by saying that the mushaf(written book) is different than the Quran(revelation)

My question is plain and simple..Why is the perfect book of God not perfectly organized? Doesn’t it indicate that the collection of Quran was not divinely ordained?

Even you leave the above arguments aside, how perfect would you call a God that declares today that ”today I have perfected your religion for you”(Quran 5:3) but still continues with his revelations tommorow ? Can you forgive the imperfection of such a God that has more to say after he has perfected his religion?

Even after declaring in Quran 5:3 that He has perfected his religion, Allah found out that his religion was not so perfect.So he kept revealing more verses .The last one as per Sahih Muslim is listed below for verification of the claim
Kalala Sahih Muslim,Book 011, Number 3939:
“Al-Bara’ (Allah be pleased with him) reported that the last verse revealed in the Holy Qur’an is:” They ask thee for a religious verdict; say: Allah gives you a religious verdict about Kalala (the person who has neither parents nor children)” (iv 177).” [Unfortunately there is no 177th verse in new Quran! The one given in this Hadith is found at 176th place.]

Now the questions to ask are:
What made Allah declare prematurely that he has completed the religion when he had a lot many other things to reveal?

Most Importantly, If the God of Quran is an incremental revealer, why should one believe that he perfected his religion in the 7th century arabia?

Even if you leave that aside, do you know that the prophet never ordered the compilation of the Quran ? that the collection of Quran was ordered by Caliphs and not the prophet? that the collector of Quran found this task to be more difficult than moving mountains? that the Quran was compiled from bones,leaves, hides and the hearts of believers!! ?

..still you believe that with all this hodge podge ..the Quran surely remained uncorrupted and complete!!!?

here’s the Sahih Hadit that shows how it all started

Sahih Bukhari, Book 60, Number 201: Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra’ were killed). ‘ Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, ‘Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra’ (those who know the Qur’an by heart) at othe r battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur’an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur’an.” Abu Bakr added, “I said to ‘Umar, ‘How can I do something which Allah’s Apostle has not done?’ ‘Umar said (to me), ‘By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.’ So ‘Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as ‘Umar.” (Zaid bin Thabit added:) Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). “You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur’an and collect it (in one manuscript). ” By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur’an. I said to both of them, “How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):– “Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)” (9.128) The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with ‘Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar’s daughter.

The questions that any sane person would ask are

Were Abu Bakr and Umar prophets who were divinely inspired to do what the prophet Muhammad himself didn’t do?
How sure can one be that the whole of Quran would have been collected when one had to collect it from bones and parchments and the memories of ordinary men?

When Allah’s prophet himself used to forget Quranic Verses then how can an ordinary man’s memory be trusted in writing the book?

“Sahih Bukhari Book 61, Number 558: Narrated Aisha: Allah’s Apostle heard a man reciting the Qur’an at night, and said, “May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget.”

If the correctness of the verses was left to the judgment of Zaid and other people …is there any doubt that the validation of Quran was a human exercise rather than a divine exercise under the guidance of a live prophet and hence open to all kind of omissions and errors


7. The most critical element for practicing Islam, Shahada does not come as single line anywhere in Quran. It has been deliberately created by picking and choosing two different lines from different places! In this manner anyone can join any two phrases from different parts of the Quran and prove anything!

8. Another question arises, why does not at all Quran describe the methods of prayers, no of prayers per day, etc? When these elementary information cant be found in Quran how can it be called as complete? Worship, being the most important thing in Islam (since we were created only to worship Allah), should have been described in Quran in such a manner that no ambiguity could arise regarding number and types of prayers. But as we know, there is dispute among the scholars of not only from different sects of Islam but within one sect too regarding number of prayers per day, some say its five times and some say its three!


9. It is a well known fact that the compiler of Quran, Uthman was murdered at the time when he was reciting from it. Aisha and her brother were amongst the rebels against Uthman. Now question comes, if Aisha had malign motives for Uthman and Uthman was right, how can her narrations of Hadith be taken seriously and truthful, which are the bases for most of the verses of Quran? If Uthman was wrong and Aisha was right, how can the book Quran, which was compiled by him be assumed to be free from errors when its compiler was later found to be wrong?

10. Hadith of goat eating some verses of Quran: Sunan Ibn Maja, Volume 2, Page 39, Published from Karachi-
Ayesha: “When the verses “Rajm” [Stoning] and ayah “Rezah Kabir” descended, they were written on a piece of paper and kept under my pillow. Following the demise of Prophet Muhammad (S) a goat ate the piece of paper while we were mourning.”

[http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?18179-Hadiths-that-Say-Quran-is-Missing-Lost].

Every sane person would have known by now that how false the claims of Mullahs (who are misguiding the masses) regarding the preservation of Quran are.

11. Shaia’s claim of 17000 verses in Quran: It is from Shia sahih hadith
Kulayni. “Usool al-Kafy” vol. 2, Kitaab: Fadlul-Qur’an, narration # 28:
“Ali b. al-Hakam from Hishaam b. Salim from Abu Abdullah [as] saying: Verily, the Qur’an which Gibril [as] came up with to Muhammad [saw] is 17,000 verses”.

This is yet another evidence that how a significant portion of Muslims refuses to believe the current Quran to be ultimate. Note that Vedas have around 20000 verses, and if you remove verses that occur with similar meanings in same language, the number is closer.

Does it mean Muhammad was actually talking of Vedas. (There were popular poems in Arab literature glorifying Vedas which were written before Muhammad was born. And while he may not have access to Vedas directly, he may have known that actual book of Ishwar has around 17000 unique verses.)

And now my friend, if you have left all of these facts and observations aside, this article was never meant for you in the first place .The minds open to reason and facts can easily see from above that Islam is not perfect(like any other religion) nor are it’s books free of corruption or external influence.
Friend, the intention of the article is not to downplay the religion, but to share with you the facts which can embolden your resolve to bring the much needed and much delayed reforms in Islam.

Christianity is reforming and so is Hinduism or any other religion. It’s time for Islam to do the same and
Challenge those hate filled verses that divide humanity and get rid of them
Challenge the anti-humanity Hadits that sanction violence, gender bias and defame the prophet and bring/carve out the spiritual side of Islam for the world
Wake up and wake others. Let us arrive at least at a stage where peaceful religious co-existence is not a one-way slogan. And better still accept Vedas that if for entire humanity, for all times, for all geographies and the only message of Allah that never changes.

[MG Man]

Chapter 3 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins, Chapter 3
I checked your "bible" above and found nothing to do with the Qur'aan or the prophet. However, I did find a lot of info about the Bible, the four gospels and at least 8 others that were thrown out (or not put in) and other books like Did Jesus Exist? and The Story Behind Who Changed The New Testament and Why?.

I stand corrected. Right chapter, wrong book......it was actually 'god is not Great (How religion poisons everything) by Christopher Hitchens

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Always wondered where the term 'booty' came from

errrr no

boo·ty  [boo-tee]
noun, plural boo·ties.
1. spoil taken from an enemy in war; plunder; pillage.
2. something that is seized by violence and robbery.
3. any prize or gain.

[York]

If scripture is not to be taken literally, then how is it to be taken and understood? What is the purpose of it then?

What you are saying is that no one will know what it really means unless they themselves are "divinely inspired". Now that's unreasonable.

So Muslims should all have slaves then?

The Prophet himself had slaves and concubines. Muslims are supposed to follow "sunnah" (follow in the ways of the Prophet).

Qur'an 33:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."
http://quran.com/33/50

Qur'an 23:6 - "... except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them:..."
http://quran.com/23/6

The Muslim spin doctors are probably going to quote all the verses that talk about freeing slaves and stating that Islam supports abolition. Why then did the Prophet have slaves and slave girls? Why did he marry captured women after battle?

While I think it's nice to allow a slave to obtain his freedom, (at his master's discretion) it is tragic that Islam allows them to be enslaved in the first place. That's like robbing a bank and giving some of the money back to the bank, and thinking you did the right thing!

The above verses show that taking slaves was ordained by Allah, and that it was permissible for Muslim males to have sex with their female slaves. It also shows that slaves were a valuable commodity to the Muslims, otherwise, Allah would not have imposed the penalty of freeing a slave to make up for a crime.

What does this attack on muslims (alone) have to do with the subject being discussed?

[megadoc1]

what attack?

[York]

what attack?

Are you blind, delusional or hypnotized by your new guru Dspike?

Dspike said that scriptures are NOT to be taken literally. His expertise is christianity, so I presume he can only speak concerning the Bible.

Muslims, you guys are saying, take their scriptures literally. When they are instructed in their Koran to kill infidels, free slaves, pay charity, go to Hajj, what do you expect them to do? Disobey, do something else, if they are not to take their scripture literally? If god says worship him alone, do you expect them to worship others (like idols and man) also and say that they are obeying their god because, according to you all, THEY HAVE NOT TAKEN THEIR SCRIPTURE LITERALLY?

[Kasey]

just one question york, did the koran really say those things that TonyM wrote?

[d spike]

What you are saying is that no one will know what it really means unless they themselves are "divinely inspired". Now that's unreasonable.

In the christian dilemma, if the holy spirit enters, inspires (or possesses) someone then where's the FREE WILL?

Regarding the first quote, you are quite right, that's unreasonable... and what is unreasonable about this statement is that I NEVER said or suggested what you stated above.
Both quotes above clearly show a lack of understanding about what is meant by "divine inspiration". Here's something I had posted moons ago:

Seriously, I think an explanation of what Christians think 'inspired writings' and 'revealed truth' mean - or what they are supposed to think. 'Inspired' means 'guided by the spirit of God'. Writings that are inspired are full of moral teachings, advice, instruction and guidance... all good, but more than just a purely human effort of a human mind trying to guide others to goodness (at least, that's what was agreed on by those who decided these writings should be included in the big ring-binder we call the bible). Revealed truth is far different (but self-explanatory). These are inspired writings that contain material that the human condition couldn't engineer on its own... BUT STILL WRITTEN BY A HUMAN WHO HAS A CULTURE AND IDIOM THROUGH WHICH HE TRANSMITS HIS INFO (which he will put in terms that he uses, explain what he is trying to be aware of from his point of view).
The way many christians talk, you could swear that de Boss put whoever it was into a trance or something, and when the guy wakes up, he finds reams of writing... "Ay, gimme dat pencil, twit... lemme write dat..."

No two persons will understand scripture the same way, leading to many divisions aka sects, as currently exists. Will GOD accept all or some or none?

I have written about this before, and the problems associated with such a problem.

I agree, but where that one truth is concerned, there are many ways of perceiving it, expressing it, focusing on different aspects of it... and when you consider that all or some of this must be put into the context of the culture of the one who proclaims it... no wonder the multiplicity of religions in the history of man.

A truly religious person would believe this. However the problem with appreciating/accepting other cultures' religions starts right as one accepts this truth, and at the same time, allows one's own personal view to colour this same truth.

Who you deem God (and thus, His revealed "word") can easily lead you to assume that you (and hence your choice) are right... and all else must therefore be wrong. It hardly ever occurs to the immature/simple mind that God would choose to reveal himself to different cultures across time in ways that those particular people could understand and would accept His truths.

Please note that I am not decrying immature or simple-minded folk - far from it... Their lives are far more uncomplicated. It is what we do, not what we know, that we will be judged by - if you believe in some form of judgment, of course. In fact, to be aware of more, makes whatever judgment you might face even more weighty. Simple people see things in "black and white". Decisions come easily to them... until they come across one of life's quagmires of moral dilemmas. (At that point, they either become aware of the existence of the "gray areas" of life - and in choosing to deal with it, open their minds to the ability to learn more deeply about life; or they prefer to remain as they are by "backpedalling" until they reach to safe ground, then avoid that particular reality like the plague - or just live in denial.)
Where these simple folk run afoul is when they decide that everybody else must do things / accept truths their way - as any other way must be wrong.

As far as if "God will accept all or some or none", your own religious beliefs would provide the answer that you would accept most easily.

Is there anyone that GOD will reject? Send to Hell (if it exists)?
What is the criteria for heaven for all people / religions, not christianity alone?

I guess you will have to ask Him that, wouldn't you?

If scripture is not to be taken literally, then how is it to be taken and understood? What is the purpose of it then?

If one is going to follow everything stated in the bible literally, then one is going to run into problems due to seemingly conflicting/contradictory statements - simply due to multiple translations, differing points of view of different authors who wrote at different times - please bear in mind that scripture is "inspired by God"... not, "gimme dat pencil, minion, lemme write dat fuh yuh..." Are you going to hate your parents? Have you given away everything you own? (Or are you posting on the computer belonging to the person who took you in, while you preach in their town?)
The bible isn't a manual on how to do things. It (as is all scripture) is meant to guide you in how you should live your life. Values, not a series of instructions.

[d spike]

what attack?

Are you blind, delusional or hypnotized by your new guru Dspike?

Rest assured that I am the last person megadoc will have as a "guru"... well, apart from MG and Nati...

Seriously, megadoc was most likely attempting to draw your attention to the fact that TonyM was responding to your post about taking scripture literally. He just started with Islamic scripture... is it that your remarks were referring only to scripture other than Islamic scripture?

Dspike said that scriptures are NOT to be taken literally. His expertise is christianity, so I presume he can only speak concerning the Bible.

I'm afraid you presume wrong..

Muslims, you guys are saying, take their scriptures literally. When they are instructed in their Koran to kill infidels, free slaves, pay charity, go to Hajj, what do you expect them to do? Disobey, do something else, if they are not to take their scripture literally? If god says worship him alone, do you expect them to worship others (like idols and man) also and say that they are obeying their god because, according to you all, THEY HAVE NOT TAKEN THEIR SCRIPTURE LITERALLY?

You clearly do not understand the meaning of the phrase "literal translation". Considering the questions you are asking on an open forum, as well as your confusing following direct instructions with interpreting scripture, I suggest you begin/continue to study what your own religion teaches. Understanding what is meant by "literal translation" is not as important as answering such questions such as who is going to heaven.

Good luck.

[MG Man]

York
Riding on 13's

Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:25 am
Posts: 4

seems legit

[megadoc1]

what attack?

Are you blind, delusional or hypnotized by your new guru Dspike?

new guru?...wow..because I came across agreeing with him in some posts lately?
what was your old username?
listen if you read a few hundred pages back to me d spike was the devil...(he still is..lol)
I may not agree with most of what he says ( I don't understand him that well) but I have matured past the stage of being silly and attacking everything he says and reminding him of who he is ..but instead I try to see the practicality and the reality in what he says..unlike some Muslims who have a mindset that if a person eat pork or is an unbeliever ,nothing valuable can come from them.. this mindset is what hinders most from learning anything ...I believe in God and I believe all truth comes from God and most of what d spike wrote on here have very simple practical truths to them ,I would be stupid to deny those truths ,just because I consider him an infidel ..you guys needs to stop that!

[d spike]

[meccalli]

People make Too much about Heaven and Hell, that should not be the focus. What the intelligent man should concern himself is making his life peaceful, stress free, living with harmony with nature and with neighbors. Help anyone regardless of race, creed or belief, teach all your wisdom to the young ones, help save the dying earth, give charity, share, love, plant a tree, save the dolphins, encourage others to do so.

I believe much sense was said here and taking from Ghandi's words, that men ought to live more like Jesus Christ. And after all that's all being a Christian is, following in the steps of Christ, following a light to keep ourselves from darkness. Believing in a God that saw fit to become flesh and see eye to eye with his creation that was fashioned in his own likeness, to set the example himself and give his life for ours to be spared. That is true love, and why God is love.

[York]

what attack?

Are you blind, delusional or hypnotized by your new guru Dspike?

new guru?...wow..because I came across agreeing with him in some posts lately?
what was your old username?
listen if you read a few hundred pages back to me d spike was the devil...(he still is..lol)
I may not agree with most of what he says ( I don't understand him that well) but I have matured past the stage of being silly and attacking everything he says and reminding him of who he is ..but instead I try to see the practicality and the reality in what he says..unlike some Muslims who have a mindset that if a person eat pork or is an unbeliever ,nothing valuable can come from them.. this mindset is what hinders most from learning anything ...I believe in God and I believe all truth comes from God and most of what d spike wrote on here have very simple practical truths to them ,I would be stupid to deny those truths ,just because I consider him an infidel ..you guys needs to stop that!

Why is Dspike considered by you to be an infidel? (if i read correctly). Stop what?

[d spike]

People make Too much about Heaven and Hell, that should not be the focus. What the intelligent man should concern himself is making his life peaceful, stress free, living with harmony with nature and with neighbors. Help anyone regardless of race, creed or belief, teach all your wisdom to the young ones, help save the dying earth, give charity, share, love, plant a tree, save the dolphins, encourage others to do so.

I believe much sense was said here and taking from Ghandi's words, that men ought to live more like Jesus Christ. And after all that's all being a Christian is, following in the steps of Christ, following a light to keep ourselves from darkness. Believing in a God that saw fit to become flesh and see eye to eye with his creation that was fashioned in his own likeness, to set the example himself and give his life for ours to be spared. That is true love, and why God is love.

DFC is quite right.
Here are a few good quotes (Muhammad, I believe):
A perfect Muslim is one from whose tongue and hands mankind is safe.

Do you love your creator? Love your fellow-beings first.

the worst of God’s servants are those who spread tales to do mischief and separate friends, and look for the faults of the good.

[AdamB]

some Muslims who have a mindset that if a person eat pork or is an unbeliever ,nothing valuable can come from them..

That's not true. What is the basis for this statement? GOD affirms in the Qur'aan that some good/benefit comes from alcohol, gambling, etc but the evil far outweighs the good.

I believe in God and I believe all truth comes from God

If you believe in GOD, then you would recognize the truth in the Qur'aan. Since you don't recognize the Qur'aan as truth, DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN GOD?

[AdamB]

just one question york, did the koran really say those things that TonyM wrote?

Get a copy and read one. Better yet check it online.

[AdamB]

what attack?

It is very wrong for people to portray polygamy as only as Muslim thing yet it is well known that the Bible is pro-polygamy.Polygamy is one of the grand Bible based values they don't like to talk about .You will find nothing in the Bible, Old or New Testament, that discredits polygamy.Actually, the Bible does not restrict how many wives a man can have, Only that he must be married to whoever he has sex with. In the Bible, King Solomon, who was one of the "good guys" , had 1000 wives and concubines. According to the bible, a man may have sex with any woman who is legally his property. This means polygamy is acceptable under biblical morality; if you'll recall, almost all of the biblical greats had multiple wives and concubines (David, Solomen, Isaac, Abraham, Gideon, Machir, Manasseh, Esau, Isreal, Jacob.......).For instance, in Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry. In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines. In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines. In Deuteronomy 21:15 "If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons....". In Deuteronomy 25:5 if a woman's husband dies, and she didn't have any kids from him, then she must marry his brother regardless whether he had a wife or not.

Polygamy has been practiced for thousands of years.Polygamy stretches back at least thousands of years to the Babylonian empire.In Sweden, there is now a movement for legalized polyamory and the abolition of marriage.In Canada,two out of four reports on polygamy commissioned by the Canadian government recommended decriminalization and regulation of the practice. In USA,Polygamy is supported in principle by the American Civil Liberties Union.There are also Mormons living in suburban Utah who are polygamous anyway despite the fact that Polygamy is banned in the Utah Constitution and is a felony offense.While polygamy is technically illegal in Utah,tens of thousands of devout Christians there still practice it (Some husbands have as many as seven wives).The law isn't enforced much, like laws against other victim less crimes.While Bill Clinton also condemned polygamy and its prior practice by his Mormon church,when campaigning to be president and targeting for women votes , his great-grandfather had five wives and at least one of his great-great grandfathers had 12.

[Oleander]

I believe in God and I believe all truth comes from God

If you believe in GOD, then you would recognize the truth in the Qur'aan. Since you don't recognize the Qur'aan as truth, DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN GOD?

I don't live by the words of the Qur'aan but I am most positively sure that I believe in God and have faith is His power as well.

Who are you to question what a mortal man like yourself believes?

[AdamB]

I believe in God and I believe all truth comes from God

If you believe in GOD, then you would recognize the truth in the Qur'aan. Since you don't recognize the Qur'aan as truth, DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN GOD?

I don't live by the words of the Qur'aan but I am most positively sure that I believe in God and have faith is His power as well.

Who are you to question what a mortal man like yourself believes?

If you read between the lines, you might see that I am prompting him to ASK THE QUESTION TO HIMSELF?

BTW According to your logic, who are you to question me?

[Oleander]

I didn't question your belief...that was the point of my question.

I realised the intent of your question. Seeing that I clearly stated that I don't live by the words of the Qur'aan would you ask me the same question?

megadoc1 said he believed in God just like I did.. I have no doubt in my mind about my belief/faith after all I live in my God's grace each time he gives me the opportunity to see another day.

[AdamB]

There are three categories of ONENESS OF GOD:
1. LORDSHIP (Creator, Sustainer, Owner, Running of affairs, Giver and taker of life)
2. WORSHIP (HE ALONE is to be worshipped in the way that HE has legislated)
3. NAMES AND ATTRIBUTES. (not resembling the Creation and creation not resembling HIM, unique to HIM, Names not without meaning and Attributes of perfection, There is NONE LIKE UNTO HIM).

Says who?

Names???
Why this constant hang-up on names??? Do you really think you might end up mistakenly praying to the WRONG God? Isn't the whole point of Monotheism that there is ONLY one????

One again Dspike, why do you assume that you are right because you could be wrong since your basis is FAITH ONLY?

Once again, I can prove my methodology from my napkin, can you do the same for your's? Sorry, don't answer that...you wrote before...you don't have to reveal your belief...I REALLY DON'T CARE!!

THE ONLY TRUE MONOTHEISM IS ISLAMIC MONOTHEISM!!

[AdamB]

I didn't question your belief...that was the point of my question.

I realised the intent of your question. Seeing that I clearly stated that I don't live by the words of the Qur'aan would you ask me the same question?

megadoc1 said he believed in God just like I did.. I have no doubt in my mind about my belief/faith after all I live in my God's grace each time he gives me the opportunity to see another day.

The point is that it is the legacy of the prophets to invite people to GOD, to the truth, to salvation by correct belief and doing of good deeds. NOT by leaving "all rivers to flow to the sea" but by good advice about GOD and what HE has legislated for us to follow.

[AdamB]

megadoc1 said he believed in God just like I did..

What is that belief, specifically?

[Oleander]

megadoc1 said he believed in God just like I did..

What is that belief, specifically?

Belief is a habit of the mind. It provokes trust and confidence. Belief is one's conviction of what he deems to be true.
E.g. I believe that God's truth is laid in His holy bible. I seek His inspired words for inspiration, wisdom and peace. I believe that if I follow the words that my life would be a righteous one.

[megadoc1]

some Muslims who have a mindset that if a person eat pork or is an unbeliever ,nothing valuable can come from them..

That's not true. What is the basis for this statement? GOD affirms in the Qur'aan that some good/benefit comes from alcohol, gambling, etc but the evil far outweighs the good.

well answer me this ...is there anything that d spike wrote here that you can gather simple truths from? if no GOTO quote below

some Muslims have a mindset that if a person eat pork or is an unbeliever ,nothing valuable can come from them..

I believe in God and I believe all truth comes from God

If you believe in GOD, then you would recognize the truth in the Qur'aan. Since you don't recognize the Qur'an as truth, DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN GOD?

I do recognize truths in the Qur'an but that does not mean that the quran is a truthful book as a whole

what attack?

It is very wrong for people to portray polygamy as only as Muslim thing yet it is ...................................................................................................................................

dan how does his warrant such a response? a guy simply asked some questions and it was considered to be an attack on muslims...

[AdamB]

megadoc1 said he believed in God just like I did..

What is that belief, specifically?

Belief is a habit of the mind. It provokes trust and confidence. Belief is one's conviction of what he deems to be true.
E.g. I believe that God's truth is laid in His holy bible. I seek His inspired words for inspiration, wisdom and peace. I believe that if I follow the words that my life would be a righteous one.

If that belief is false, how could it provoke trust and confidence?

If you were a Jew 2000 yrs ago, would you tell Jesus to take his parables and hit the road because you have "trust and confidence" in the Torah?

Noah's people had confidence in him being a mad man, would you have taken that leap of faith and follow him?

There comes a time when you have to jump off the sinking ship and get on board the sea-worthy one. History repeats itself.

[megadoc1]

megadoc1 said he believed in God just like I did..

What is that belief, specifically?

not the contradictory one where I believe there is one God but I must get whatever his name is right lest I pray to the wrong one...wait

[AdamB]

some Muslims who have a mindset that if a person eat pork or is an unbeliever ,nothing valuable can come from them..

That's not true. What is the basis for this statement? GOD affirms in the Qur'aan that some good/benefit comes from alcohol, gambling, etc but the evil far outweighs the good.

well answer me this ...is there anything that d spike wrote here that you can gather simple truths from? if no GOTO quote below

some Muslims have a mindset that if a person eat pork or is an unbeliever ,nothing valuable can come from them..

I already responded to this, yes.

I believe in God and I believe all truth comes from God

If you believe in GOD, then you would recognize the truth in the Qur'aan. Since you don't recognize the Qur'an as truth, DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE IN GOD?

I do recognize truths in the Qur'an but that does not mean that the quran is a truthful book as a whole
We can say the same for the bible, do you agree?

what attack?

It is very wrong for people to portray polygamy as only as Muslim thing yet it is ...................................................................................................................................

dan how does his warrant such a response? a guy simply asked some questions and it was considered to be an attack on muslims...It was, simply, because he chose to attack muslims alone.

Megadoc1 tell me if you disbelieve in any of these:

1. GOD and HIS ONENESS.

2. THE BOOKS, REVELATIONS SENT BY GOD TO MAN.

3. THE ANGELS.

4. THE PROPHETS.

5. THE DAY OF JUDGMENT.

6. DIVINE PRE-DECREE (that GOD WILLS everything to occur that occurs), ITS GOOD AND ITS BAD (that GOD WILLS GOOD and BAD/EVIL like hellfire/satan to occur for a wisdom, through HIS knowledge and not without justice.)