TriniTuner.com | Latest Event:
Moderator: 3ne2nr Mods
AdamB wrote:Kasey wrote:A perfect book WILL make the person who reads it, understand it fully. If one misreads it, or refuses to accept it, then it is not perfect.
Kasey,
Have you read it? nope, but did those suicide bombers and their friends/teachers/'scholars' read it?Who determines what is a "PERFECT BOOK"?no one, it is perfect so no one has to 'determine' if it is perfect Is GOD in need of us to tell HIM? Certainly not. The book itself tells you:
Ch3:7 It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Qur'an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari).
Ch 9:124 And whenever there comes down a Surah (chapter from the Qur'an), some of them (hypocrites) say: "Which of you has had his Faith increased by it?" As for those who believe, it has increased their Faith, and they rejoice.
125 But as for those in whose hearts is a disease (of doubt, disbelief and hypocrisy), it will add suspicion and doubt to their suspicion, disbelief and doubt; and they die while they are disbelievers.
these are napkin logec statements again, dont waste time justifying something with itself as example
There is wisdom in it not causing people to FOLLOW like robots, which is to separate the worthy from the unworthy (in whose hearts is deviation and disbelief). sorry, I dont see the wisdom here, everyone deserves a chanceKasey wrote:If a perfect book is read, there will not be different sects following it, there will be no violence spawning from it, there will be no other book competing with it, humanity WILL follow.
According to this logic, then ALL religious books (except maybe Dspike's) are imperfect since there are different sects, violence, other books competing with it and ALL humanity who reads them DO NOT follow (some or the majority ALWAYS reject it).I did not say any was perfect, it is you who claim urs is perfect, so I am just commenting on your claim. Leave others out of it. You do not have to bring down others to make urs look good.
Kasey wrote:A perfect book WILL make the person who reads it, understand it fully. If one misreads it, or refuses to accept it, then it is not perfect. If a perfect book is read, there will not be different sects following it, there will be no violence spawning from it, there will be no other book competing with it, humanity WILL follow.
Kasey wrote:AdamB wrote:Kasey wrote:A perfect book WILL make the person who reads it, understand it fully. If one misreads it, or refuses to accept it, then it is not perfect.
Kasey,
Have you read it? nope, but did those suicide bombers and their friends/teachers/'scholars' read it?So you didn't read it but judging it? Those suicide bombers were following those in whose hearts is a deviation because they took from the unclear verses going against the Islamic Law which in that innocent lives cannot be taken in war and suicide is prohibited. They were misled. Sad but true.
Who determines what is a "PERFECT BOOK"?no one, it is perfect so no one has to 'determine' if it is perfect Is GOD in need of us to tell HIM? Certainly not. The book itself tells you:
Ch3:7 It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) the Book (this Qur'an). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari).
Ch 9:124 And whenever there comes down a Surah (chapter from the Qur'an), some of them (hypocrites) say: "Which of you has had his Faith increased by it?" As for those who believe, it has increased their Faith, and they rejoice.
125 But as for those in whose hearts is a disease (of doubt, disbelief and hypocrisy), it will add suspicion and doubt to their suspicion, disbelief and doubt; and they die while they are disbelievers.
these are napkin logec statements again, dont waste time justifying something with itself as example
The book deals with the human intellect by itself answering the questions that will be asked.
There is wisdom in it not causing people to FOLLOW like robots, which is to separate the worthy from the unworthy (in whose hearts is deviation and disbelief). sorry, I dont see the wisdom here, everyone deserves a chance
So is everyone supposed to go to paradise or become ONE WITH GOD OR BECOME GOD BY REUNITING WITH HIM? There is a reason for testing and it's outcome affirms that EVERYONE HAD A CHANCE!! You need to look outside your comfort zone with an open mind / heart.Kasey wrote:If a perfect book is read, there will not be different sects following it, there will be no violence spawning from it, there will be no other book competing with it, humanity WILL follow.
According to this logic, then ALL religious books (except maybe Dspike's) are imperfect since there are different sects, violence, other books competing with it and ALL humanity who reads them DO NOT follow (some or the majority ALWAYS reject it).I did not say any was perfect, it is you who claim urs is perfect, so I am just commenting on your claim. Leave others out of it. You do not have to bring down others to make urs look good.
rspann wrote:Kasey wrote:A perfect book WILL make the person who reads it, understand it fully. If one misreads it, or refuses to accept it, then it is not perfect. If a perfect book is read, there will not be different sects following it, there will be no violence spawning from it, there will be no other book competing with it, humanity WILL follow.
Kasey, I beg to disagree with you.Even if a book is perfect,do you think it will have the same effect on all its readers?Remember,the men who are reading it are not perfect men ,so they might read the right thing,but it does not take effect in their lives because of many different reasons.I think you are saying what it should be in an ideal situation.
DFC wrote:Adamb, what about the Kaaba, what does that have to do with Islam?
Why do Muslims worship it and kiss it?
AdamB wrote:Two things are evident here.
1. Your need to oppose me (or to have someone with whom to pick a fight).
2. Your need to invent your own "religion".
AdamB wrote:For a guy who claims to be complex, philosophical and enjoy poetry you sure have a hard time understanding simple concepts that are not poetic in nature.
AdamB wrote:I hope that's simple enough so that you can comprehend.
d spike wrote:We will be judged by what we allow our lives to focus on, based on what we are aware of.
This is the reason why people who never read whatever scripture, or heard whichever prophet, will not be damned along the lines of what scripture said or prophet babbled.
The desire to know God is based on Faith - not everyone has such a yearning. To believe that everyone has such a thing is to reveal one's ignorance of the human condition.
FREE WILL is that which allows us to choose, to make decisions. We make decisions based on the information before us.
AFTER ALL THAT MATERIAL YOU SPOUTED ABOUT THE FELLOW WHO WAS QUOTED (AND LATER WENT INSANE) YOU SHOULD PAY CLOSE ATTENTION.
Personally, I thought it just underlined the old adage, a broken clock is right at least twice a day.
What was your argument then? Because he went nuts, then what he said should be taken with a pinch of salt, eh? EH???
With that SAME logic, consider the following (which I have oft said before):
A man hears the words of God being preached. Yet he is aware that the person doing the preaching is a pedophile, or a rapist, or a slave-trader, or a bandit, or a murderer... Can you expect him to truly consider that the words he heard are truth? If that experience is the only one where he comes into direct contact with "Truth", then can he be found wanting for "not believing"?
Can someone who is being led to God by someone else be blamed for discontinuing his journey if he realizes that the one guiding him to truth is false?
MG Man wrote:from page 377...........adam real busy boiAdamB wrote:MG Man wrote:notice how he neatly sidesteps any references made to the fact that there were different versions following the profit's death, and that there wasn't an 'official' version for over a century after he died..........
bit putting that aside, something always puzzled me about a book written by god (via a man), designed to appeal to all men in all ages:
why are there rules in the koran specificaly related to interaction with the prophet? Things like 'when you go to him for his charitable handouts, just take your food and leave, don't waste his important time' etc, why would that be put in the book? Rules only relevant to a few decades while he was alive are no longer relevant....he could have just put signs on his door etc
Why was tuff like that put in the book by god?
From where do you get your information, quote your source? You are grossly misinformed!!
The entire Qur'aan was memorized and recited before the prophet's death.
You are all in need of some optimism and some FAITH!! (Dspike included.)
I ask again, "What source of unbiased information shall be use for verification of these matters?". If we can't agree on one or more, then we just "spinning top in mud."
WHAT SAY YOU?
I quoted my source, then mankind chooses what to reply to, then never comments again...AdamB wrote:MG Man wrote:Chapter 3 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins, Chapter 3
and why not comment on the other part of my post?
Ah busy working right now, in due time, maybe, have patience!!
adamb, defend your perfect book please
d spike wrote:d spike wrote:We will be judged by what we allow our lives to focus on, based on what we are aware of.
This is the reason why people who never read whatever scripture, or heard whichever prophet, will not be damned along the lines of what scripture said or prophet babbled.
The desire to know God is based on Faith - not everyone has such a yearning. To believe that everyone has such a thing is to reveal one's ignorance of the human condition.
FREE WILL is that which allows us to choose, to make decisions. We make decisions based on the information before us.
[color=#FF0000]From my previous post about FREE WILL and CHOICE, it is evident that I do not disagree with you. So what is all this babble about.
I don't disagree with us being judged by GOD based on the evidence for or against us but there is a limit to this. "What we allow our lives to focus on and what we are aware of" is tantamount to sticking our head in the sand if we live in a community with muslims, christians, jews, hindus, etc if we don't try to find out what these people are upon, what is this GOD or gods that they are worshipping, why are they worshipping. We have access to books in libraries, exposure in schools and information on the internet, so do most people really have an excuse for not being exposed to one religion or another that teaches about GOD and what HE wants from us? GOD knows best.
Someone lost in a jungle without access to any of this, to me would have more claim to not being aware or someone who dies at a young age (before the age of understanding of these matters), or someone who is mentally incapacitated, or someone who is blind or physically handicapped and so does not have access to that which normal folks do. In this case and even in the case above if someone GENUINELY was not aware of GOD (no one called him to GOD), then GOD will question him on the Day of Judgment and his choice then will determine his faith of paradise or hellfire.
I think I mentioned this before that GOD will command them to enter the Fire and only the ones who OBEY GOD will be saved (the fire will be made cool for them) and all of the others will be sent to the fire of hell. I seek GOD's protection from that torment.
[/color]
MG Man wrote:it's ok to say you don't know buddy
AdamB wrote:DFC wrote:Adamb, what about the Kaaba, what does that have to do with Islam?
Why do Muslims worship it and kiss it?
Firstly, Muslims all over the earth, during the act of ritual worship (prayer), face in the DIRECTION towards the HOLY KAABA in Mecca for the purpose of UNITY ONLY. The Kaaba is not worshipped, it is a house of worship (a mosque) itself. It was originally built by prophet Abraham and it's location is said to be where Adam first worshipped GOD. Prayer performed in the Haram (surrounding the Kaaba) is better than 100,000 times prayer in any other mosque, except the Prophet's mosque in madinah which is better than 1000 times.
Secondly, why does someone kiss something or someone? Does that mean they are worshipping it? Or could it be that it is something they love and cherish dearly?
When an atheist kisses their loved ones, does that mean that they are worshipping them? So in reality they are taking their wives and children as objects of worship, as gods? Are you an atheist? Do you kiss objects and people? If so, why?
AdamB wrote:
World English Dictionary
fundamentalism (ˌfʌndəˈmɛntəˌlɪzəm)
— n
1. Christianity (esp among certain Protestant sects) the belief that every word of the Bible is divinely inspired and therefore true
2. Islam a movement favouring strict observance of the teachings of the Koran and Islamic law
3. strict adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs
I AM PROUD TO BE A FUNDAMENTALIST!!!
How do you describe your "religion"?
1. the DSPIKE belief that every word of the Bible is NOT divinely inspired and therefore FALSE
2. a DSPIKE movement favouring LOOSE, NEGLIGENT, CARELESS, FAULTY, INACCURATE, LAX OR VAGUE observance of the teachings of the BIBLE and CHRISTIAN law
3. LOOSE, NEGLIGENT, CARELESS, FAULTY, INACCURATE, LAX OR VAGUE adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs
[/b][/color]
MG Man][quote="MG Man wrote:there were different versions following the profit's death, and that there wasn't an 'official' version for over a century after he died..........
The entire Qur'aan was memorized and recited in it's entirety before the prophet's (note the spelling) death. It was not recorded on paper because the prophetic narrations were written during the life of the prophet. The point was to memorize the Qur'aan and not write it down to create confusion with the hadith (prophetic narrations).
It is believed upon Ḥudhayfa’s request ʿUthmān obtained the sheets of the Qur'an from Ḥafṣa and appointed a commission consisting of Zayd b. Thābit and three prominent Meccans, and instructed them to copy the sheets into several volumes based on the dialect of Quraysh, the main tribe of Mecca.
Uthman's reaction in 653 is recorded in the following:
"So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.'"[Quran 33:23][Bukhari Sahih al-Bukhari, 6:61:510]
When the task was finished ʿUthmān kept one copy in Medina and sent others to Kūfa, Baṣra, Damascus, and, according to some accounts, Mecca, and ordered that all other copies of the Qur'an be destroyed.
It is generally accepted that the Uthmanic text comprises all 114 suras in the order known to us today.
Come on, let's get real here. The overwhelming majority of Arabic speaking people are muslims who follow the Qur'aan. Do you think that millions from over 4 billion people are wrong in memorizing the Qur'aan, thereby preserving it. It is written in the chests of men!!
bit putting that aside, something always puzzled me about a book written by god (via a man), designed to appeal to all men in all ages:
why are there rules in the koran specificaly related to interaction with the prophet? Things like 'when you go to him for his charitable handouts, just take your food and leave, don't waste his important time' etc, why would that be put in the book? Rules only relevant to a few decades while he was alive are no longer relevant....he could have just put signs on his door etc
Why was tuff like that put in the book by god?
AdamB wrote:MG Man wrote:Chapter 3 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins, Chapter 3
I checked your "bible" above and found nothing to do with the Qur'aan or the prophet. However, I did find a lot of info about the Bible, the four gospels and at least 8 others that were thrown out (or not put in) and other books like Did Jesus Exist? and The Story Behind Who Changed The New Testament and Why?
and why not comment on the other part of my post?
Ah busy working right now, in due time, maybe, have patience!!
Kasey wrote:Didnt someone tell AdamB that most major religions ALSO believe in ONE GOD? He seems to be clueless about this.
AdamB wrote:World English Dictionary
fundamentalism (ˌfʌndəˈmɛntəˌlɪzəm)
— n
1. Christianity (esp among certain Protestant sects) the belief that every word of the Bible is divinely inspired and therefore true
2. Islam a movement favouring strict observance of the teachings of the Koran and Islamic law
3. strict adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs
I AM PROUD TO BE A FUNDAMENTALIST!!!
Some Christian theologians, some fundamentalists, and others pejoratively refer to any philosophy which they see as literal-minded or they believe carries a pretense of being the sole source of objective truth as fundamentalist, regardless of whether it is usually called a religion.
Fundamentalism refers to “black-and-white” thinking that opposes modernism, or progressive thinking about religion and other social topics. Fundamentalist groups tend to oppose anything that challenges their religious group's interpretations and opinions.
AdamB wrote:How do you describe your "religion"?
1. the DSPIKE belief that every word of the Bible is NOT divinely inspired and therefore FALSE
2. a DSPIKE movement favouring LOOSE, NEGLIGENT, CARELESS, FAULTY, INACCURATE, LAX OR VAGUE observance of the teachings of the BIBLE and CHRISTIAN law
3. LOOSE, NEGLIGENT, CARELESS, FAULTY, INACCURATE, LAX OR VAGUE adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs
AdamB wrote:Kasey wrote:Didnt someone tell AdamB that most major religions ALSO believe in ONE GOD? He seems to be clueless about this.
In your mind yes, but not in the religion and gods (plural) that you worship and other acts that classify those that do it as POLYTHEISTS.
Can you prove that THE ONE TRUE GOD resembles the mother latchmi, shiva, etc and countless other idols that hindus in the past TOOK AS THEIR GOD? So you living in modern times, so you smarter than them, so educate yourself and find out what it means that there is ONE GOD.
Historically, most Christian churches have taught that the nature of God is a mystery, in the original, technical meaning; something that must be revealed by special revelation rather than deduced through general revelation. Among early Christians there was considerable debate over the nature of Godhead, with some factions arguing for the deity of Jesus and others calling for an Arian conception of God. These issues of Christology were to form one of the main subjects of contention at the First Council of Nicaea.
The First Council of Nicaea, held in Nicaea in Bithynia (in present-day Turkey), convoked by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in 325, was the first (or second, if one counts the apostolic Council of Jerusalem) ecumenical council of bishops of the Roman Empire, and most significantly resulted in the first uniform Christian doctrine, called the Nicene Creed. With the creation of the creed, a precedent was established for subsequent 'general (ecumenical) councils of bishops' (synods) to create statements of belief and canons of doctrinal orthodoxy— the intent being to define unity of beliefs for the State church of the Roman Empire and eradicate heretical ideas.
The purpose of the council was to resolve disagreements in the Church of Alexandria over the nature of Jesus in relationship to the Father; in particular, whether Jesus was of the same substance as God the Father or merely of similar substance. St. Alexander of Alexandria and Athanasius took the first position; the popular presbyter Arius, from whom the term Arian controversy comes, took the second. The council decided against the Arians overwhelmingly. (Of the estimated 250-318 attendees, all but 2 voted against Arius).
Christian orthodox traditions (Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Evangelical) follow this decision, which was codified in 381 and reached its full development through the work of the Cappadocian Fathers. They consider God to be a triune entity, called the Trinity, comprising the three "Persons" God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, the three of this unity are described as being "of the same substance". The true nature of an infinite God, however, is asserted to be beyond definition, and "the word 'person' is but an imperfect expression of the idea, and is not biblical. In common parlance it denotes a separate rational and moral individual, possessed of self-consciousness, and conscious of his identity amid all changes. Experience teaches that where you have a person, you also have a distinct individual essence. Every person is a distinct and separate individual, in whom human nature is individualized. But in God there are no three individuals alongside of, and separate from, one another, but only personal self distinctions within the divine essence, which is not only generically, but also numerically, one.
Hindus venerate God in the form of the Murti, an icon. The Puja (worship) of the Murti is like a way to communicate with the formless, abstract divinity (Brahman in Hinduism) which creates, sustains and dissolves creation.
Hindu philosophers and theologians also argue for a transcendent metaphysical structure with a single divine essence. This divine essence is usually referred to as Brahman or Atman, but the understanding of the nature of this absolute divine essence is the line which defines many Hindu philosophical traditions such as Vedanta. Hindus believe that the decision of whose path to god is correct will be decided by god only, so everything must be left to and surrendered unto god and no one should take the matters into his own hands or use violence.
Many lay Hindus believe in different deities emanating from Brahman, and the majority continues to worship a deity as a matter of personal belief or tradition as a representation of this supreme being, as a representation of the 'One God'.
Says who?AdamB wrote:There are three categories of ONENESS OF GOD:
1. LORDSHIP (Creator, Sustainer, Owner, Running of affairs, Giver and taker of life)
2. WORSHIP (HE ALONE is to be worshipped in the way that HE has legislated)
3. NAMES AND ATTRIBUTES. (not resembling the Creation and creation not resembling HIM, unique to HIM, Names not without meaning and Attributes of perfection, There is NONE LIKE UNTO HIM).
DFC wrote:It seems as if Adamb has fallen victim to Allah, the great deceiver (khayru al-makireen) (yes google it)
You're a self proclaimed Islamic Fundamentalist, further discussion with you is futile, and may warrant a fatwa on my head.
d spike wrote:AdamB wrote:World English Dictionary
fundamentalism (ˌfʌndəˈmɛntəˌlɪzəm)
— n
1. Christianity (esp among certain Protestant sects) the belief that every word of the Bible is divinely inspired and therefore true
2. Islam a movement favouring strict observance of the teachings of the Koran and Islamic law
3. strict adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs
I AM PROUD TO BE A FUNDAMENTALIST!!!
This generalization has been stated before... which means you NEVER read my response. (Look it up.)
I would also point out that Wikipedia, the source you seem fond of, says:Some Christian theologians, some fundamentalists, and others pejoratively refer to any philosophy which they see as literal-minded or they believe carries a pretense of being the sole source of objective truth as fundamentalist, regardless of whether it is usually called a religion.
Google "fundamentalism" and you will get responses like:Fundamentalism refers to “black-and-white” thinking that opposes modernism, or progressive thinking about religion and other social topics. Fundamentalist groups tend to oppose anything that challenges their religious group's interpretations and opinions.AdamB wrote:How do you describe your "religion"?
1. the DSPIKE belief that every word of the Bible is NOT divinely inspired and therefore FALSE
2. a DSPIKE movement favouring LOOSE, NEGLIGENT, CARELESS, FAULTY, INACCURATE, LAX OR VAGUE observance of the teachings of the BIBLE and CHRISTIAN law
3. LOOSE, NEGLIGENT, CARELESS, FAULTY, INACCURATE, LAX OR VAGUE adherence to the fundamental principles of any set of beliefs
That's right, twist what I have said in the vain hope you will fool somebody other than yourself.
The whole point about scripture is that it IS divinely inspired writings - and I have never said otherwise. WHAT I HAVE SAID IS THAT IT IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY.
This load of hooey will easily be recognized as such by anyone who has read my posts.
So Muslims should all have slaves then?York wrote:If scripture is not to be taken literally, then how is it to be taken and understood? What is the purpose of it then?
What you are saying is that no one will know what it really means unless they themselves are "divinely inspired". Now that's unreasonable.
TonyM wrote:Qur'an 33:50 - "Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives to whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty."
http://quran.com/33/50
York wrote:DSpike,
If scripture is not to be taken literally, then how is it to be taken and understood? What is the purpose of it then?
York wrote:What you are saying is that no one will know what it really means unless they themselves are "divinely inspired". Now that's unreasonable. No two persons will understand scripture the same way, leading to many divisions aka sects, as currently exists. Will GOD accept all or some or none?
In the christian dilemma, if the holy spirit enters, inspires (or possesses) someone then where's the FREE WILL? In this case, it will be coerced by GOD rather than man as you said in your discourse with AdamB.
Dspike,
I have a couple questions for you. Is there anyone that GOD will reject? Send to Hell (if it exists)? What is the criteria for heaven for all people / religions, not christianity alone?
Return to “Ole talk and more Ole talk”
Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 383 guests
