The Religion Discussion

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

After all is said and done:
Don't people believe what they want to believe?
Is it not a matter of (personal) choice?

So regardless of what the reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves if GOD (reward /punishment) is the reality.

if?

what if it isn't? what then?
what if megadoc1 is right and you are wrong?
what if maj.tom is right and God doesn't exist?
what if crossdrilled is right and you are wrong?

the man who first said the earth revolved around the sun must have seemed like a "looney" back when he said it! He may have been the most revered scientist of his time, however people were not accustomed to that concept and so they would say he is crazy.

[d spike]

After all is said and done:
Don't people believe what they want to believe?
Is it not a matter of (personal) choice?

Do you really believe this?
If you do, then what about the ethics involved in accepting this concept? (and that is not another type of poetry)

If people are allowed to believe what they WANT to believe, then their ability to choose FREELY is important to maintain this premise. Once their ability to choose freely is hindered, then the choice is not truly theirs.
This means that forced conversion - which is more than just putting a sword to a man's neck - is wrong. Putting pressure on anyone to belong to a religion is wrong.
This includes subjecting their beliefs to ridicule or belittlement.

So regardless of what the reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves if GOD (reward /punishment) is the reality.

It is unfortunate that your concept of God seems based on reward and punishment.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

After all is said and done:
Don't people believe what they want to believe?
Is it not a matter of (personal) choice?

Do you really believe this?
If you do, then what about the ethics involved in accepting this concept? (and that is not another type of poetry)

If people are allowed to believe what they WANT to believe, then their ability to choose FREELY is important to maintain this premise. Once their ability to choose freely is hindered, then the choice is not truly theirs.
This means that forced conversion - which is more than just putting a sword to a man's neck - is wrong. Putting pressure on anyone to belong to a religion is wrong.
This includes subjecting their beliefs to ridicule or belittlement.

but having a book tell you that if you follow God's way (the God of that book) you will go to heaven and if you don't you will suffer eternal damnation in hell - isn't that the same kind of "forced conversion" and being "pressured". If a bandit tells a victim "give me your money or else I'll shoot you", is that truly choice?

free will or ultimatum?

So regardless of what the reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves if GOD (reward /punishment) is the reality.

It is unfortunate that your concept of God seems based on reward and punishment.

isnt that the point of the concepts of heaven and hell?

[d spike]

If people are allowed to believe what they WANT to believe, then their ability to choose FREELY is important to maintain this premise. Once their ability to choose freely is hindered, then the choice is not truly theirs.
This means that forced conversion - which is more than just putting a sword to a man's neck - is wrong. Putting pressure on anyone to belong to a religion is wrong.
This includes subjecting their beliefs to ridicule or belittlement.

but having a book tell you that if you follow God's way (the God of that book) you will go to heaven and if you don't you will suffer eternal damnation in hell - isn't that the same kind of "forced conversion" and being "pressured". If a bandit tells a victim "give me your money or else I'll shoot you", is that truly choice?

free will or ultimatum?

Good point... but acceptance of such written material is based on Faith. Without Faith, it is just scribble. If someone reads such material and has Faith, then choosing the path prescribed by the writing is a journey that the reader is already upon and has chosen.

So regardless of what the reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves if GOD (reward /punishment) is the reality.

It is unfortunate that your concept of God seems based on reward and punishment.

isnt that the point of the concepts of heaven and hell?

I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean that the concept of heaven and hell is based on reward and punishment, then a simplistic answer would be yes - but this would show a misunderstanding of the proper concept of heaven and hell. (This error is accepted by many, but isn't commonly explained - probably because missionaries are too happy to encourage fear in the hearts of neophytes, in the hope that such fear drives them towards their "new goal".)
I hope you didn't mean that the concept of God should be based on reward and punishment. That is an error.

[maj. tom]

Where does faith in such things come from? And why don't we have faith in things like Santa Claus or Atlantis? What makes those books the foundation of faith as opposed to a peer-reviewed science journal or university textbook that is accepted by so many billions in the world who undertake science education?

Isn't it then just the need to believe that keeps them believing and having faith?

[d spike]

Where does faith in such things come from? And why don't we have faith in things like Santa Claus or Atlantis? What makes those books the foundation of faith as opposed to a peer-reviewed science journal or university textbook that is accepted by so many billions in the world who undertake science education?

Isn't it then just the need to believe that keeps them believing and having faith?

Possibly.
Faith is considered a gift from the divine. Either one has it or one does not.
For someone who has such a gift and believes in the divine, to condemn another simply because that other does not have such a gift, is foolish and wasteful... and arrogant.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

ok so you are saying faith is a gift, and the choice we make is based on the gift we get. In the case of atheists and agnostics therefore, no gift was received and so no choice has yet been made.

But once the choice is made as to which path to follow, the ultimatums given on that path means there is no real choice after that.

correct?

To bring back maj.tom's point: A 5yr old has strong faith that Santa Claus is real, mostly because the parents told him so - and that he will get toys from Santa if he behaves good.

His faith is based on what he was taught.
He really wanted a bike and it seems that Santa heard him and he got a bike! so Santa must have super powers.
If you don't believe in Santa you won get any toys from him.

Would it be wrong to tell the kid that Santa is not real?

My answer is yes, it would be wrong! I would not spoil a 5yr old's dreams and fantasy.
However an adult, I'd be sure to tell them the truth!

agreed?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

http://www.livescience.com/23758-einstein-god-letter-auction.html

The private letter written by Einstein expressing his views on God and religion will go up for auction Monday (Oct. on eBay. In the letter, he calls belief in religion and God "pretty childish" and ridicules the idea that the Jews are a chosen people.

"This is the most historic and significant piece we have listed on eBay," Eric Gazin,

it auctioned for £1.85MILLION!!!

Albert Einstein letter which he uses to say religion is ‘childish’ goes up for auction for £1.85MILLION

A handwritten letter by Albert Einstein in which he calls religion 'childish' is to be sold at auction - with a starting price of £1.85million.

The Nobel Prize-winning scientist questions the existence of God in a letter penned to philosopher Eric Gutkind in 1954.

In the private letter, which was a response to Gutkind’s book ‘Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt’, the genius says the word God is 'nothing more than the expression of human weaknesses'.

The agnostic Jew goes on to say the Bible is a 'collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish'.

He adds: 'For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions.

'And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people.

He added: 'As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power.
'Otherwise I cannot see anything ‘chosen’ about them.'

The letter, written one year before the German’s death in 1955, is commonly known as ‘The God Letter’.

When it was offered by Bloomsbury Auctions in 2008 it had an estimate of just £8,000. But a bidding frenzy resulted in one anonymous person eventually paying a staggering £170,000.
The letter has been stored in a temperature-controlled vault and will be sold through LA-based Auction Cause with a starting bid of $3 million (£1.85million). However, it has been estimated the letter could fetch as much as twice this figure.

Eric Gazin, president of Auction Cause, said: 'This letter, in my opinion, is really of historical and cultural significance as these are the personal and private thoughts of arguably the smartest man of the 20th century.

'The letter was written near the end of his life, after a lifetime of learning and thought.'
Einstein was a theoretical physicist who developed the general theory of relativity, effecting a revolution in physics.

For this achievement, Einstein is often regarded as the father of modern physics.

[nareshseep]

Lets dissect this concept of religion. What is a religion made up of?

0. A common belief in GOD
1. Songs
2. Literature
3. Rituals
4. Significance of certain days of the year

What else forms a major part of religion?

[Bizzare]

deluded believers - the main element

[DFC]

Einstein is Kufir.
And the western world also.

[nareshseep]

[Fuzzle]

Lets dissect this concept of religion. What is a religion made up of?

0. A common belief in GOD
1. Songs
2. Literature
3. Rituals
4. Significance of certain days of the year

What else forms a major part of religion?

Religion is MAN-MADE, hence the flaw

[Chimera]

i can't afford Einstein's letter so ill try to buy up as much of d spike's original letters as possible.

[maj. tom]

lots of fireworks on Mount St. Benedict's Monastery, just finished. Looked like it was from just behind the main abbey with the tower.

Jesus came again.

[d spike]

deluded believers - the main element

ok so you are saying faith is a gift, and the choice we make is based on the gift we get. In the case of atheists and agnostics therefore, no gift was received and so no choice has yet been made.

But once the choice is made as to which path to follow, the ultimatums given on that path means there is no real choice after that.

correct?

No. The error of fundamentalists is to over-simplify intricate concepts (the whole "black or white" argument) in an effort to produce rules... and what they spout sounds SOOOO REASONABLE, that we casually accept it without thinking about it.
Guidance is needed, make no mistake... but each of us is extremely important in the plan the Bossman has for us - assuming you believe in such a thing - why else would you in particular (or anyone else) exist? Considering this, one realizes that each of us has a specific path to trod. Faith is what makes us aware of such a path. This Faith might not steer you into a church... but perhaps this is part of your journey.
Faith matures... and this takes time and experience - not studying scripture!!!!! We are HERE for a reason... to do things, to be things to others... not to lock ourselves away with books - but that too could be PART of your journey (the mistake some make is assuming that is the destination )
A friend of mine told me long ago that we walk along a road in life. We stop at taverns along the way... in some we stay a long time... but sooner or later, we have to continue walking.
This life is all we are aware of at this point. It behooves us to show gratitude for it, by making the most of it. If, in one's estimation, the group one is in satisfies one's need to find a link with the divine, then that is good! ...but don't assume that is the correct choice for all others.

One can always choose a new path - but in order for this choice to help you grow, it MUST be based on something real, not a whim. Hence the reason why such things are personal or individual. My choice on my journey might actually hamper you on yours if you decide to make the same choice based on the fact that I chose such a thing.

To bring back maj.tom's point: A 5yr old has strong faith that Santa Claus is real, mostly because the parents told him so - and that he will get toys from Santa if he behaves good.

His faith is based on what he was taught.
He really wanted a bike and it seems that Santa heard him and he got a bike! so Santa must have super powers.
If you don't believe in Santa you won get any toys from him.

Would it be wrong to tell the kid that Santa is not real?

My answer is yes, it would be wrong! I would not spoil a 5yr old's dreams and fantasy.
However an adult, I'd be sure to tell them the truth!

agreed?

Quite right.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

I think that guy is confused and he seems to admit it many times in his talk.
He says there are many holes in the secular life, but I think those are his perceptions and HE wants more out of a secular life.

nothing is wrong with Santa Claus and Jingle Bells or even Christmas hymns and going by friends for Divali and Eid or attending wedding ceremonies etc
these are all communal things that all of us do anyway. Only the extremists stay away and stick to their own.

no doubt a massive part of anthropology involves religion - it is part of the legacy of humanity.
Who knows, in 1000 years we may look back at religions today as we look back at Greek religion and call it Mythology now.

many of us today do rituals and have practices and views that we borrow from many religions and dont even realise it - and nothing is wrong with that, however understand that those are human communal practices and not necessarily because we believe in ALL the religions equally.

we have all pulled various parts of religious beliefs to make our own - in fact you can see that even in the modern religions of today drawing ideas from ancient religions (Egyptians had the concept of the son of God being born through immaculate conception thousands of years before Christianity)

that is why there are so many sects of the major religions - because people take different things and put them together that appeals to them - they take the things that make them comfortable, the things that fill those holes in their life/mind and they create a new sect.

but doing it again with slightly different beliefs and now trying to give it a name like Atheism 2.0 is just plain silly IMO

the host at the end fittingly messed up the speaker a bit when he asked him if he was going to be the leader of his new religion

we don't need a movement or a new way of thinking to appreciate humanity and its culture.

[AdamB]

Lets dissect this concept of religion. What is a religion made up of?

0. A common belief in GOD
1. Songs
2. Literature
3. Rituals
4. Significance of certain days of the year

What else forms a major part of religion?

Sorry but for Islam, minus the Songs. These are NOT part of our religion.

[AdamB]

hold a Certified LOONEY in high esteem because he seems to support your cause

sounds like alot of religions and religious figures

as a Muslim you probably think the same thing of Sai Baba, while Sai Baba followers probably think the same thing of Muhammad.

you should not judge

And what legacy has Sai Baba left? I am ignorant of such, please inform me.

Also:
1. GOD Almighty is EVER-LIVING, HE does NOT DIE.

2. The legacy if the Prophets (what they leave behind) is the KNOWLEDGE OF THE GUIDANCE FROM GOD ALMIGHTY.

[AdamB]

After all is said and done:
Don't people believe what they want to believe?
Is it not a matter of (personal) choice?

So regardless of what the reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves if GOD (reward /punishment) is the reality.

if?

what if it isn't? what then?
what if megadoc1 is right and you are wrong?
what if maj.tom is right and God doesn't exist?
what if crossdrilled is right and you are wrong?

the man who first said the earth revolved around the sun must have seemed like a "looney" back when he said it! He may have been the most revered scientist of his time, however people were not accustomed to that concept and so they would say he is crazy.

Sorry: not IF, rather WHEN.

So regardless of what the PERCEIVED reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves [b]WHEN [color=#FF0000]GOD (reward /punishment) is MADE MANIFEST TO BE the TRUE AND ONLY reality.[/color][/b]

[AdamB]

After all is said and done:
Don't people believe what they want to believe?
Is it not a matter of (personal) choice?

Do you really believe this?
If you do, then what about the ethics involved in accepting this concept? (and that is not another type of poetry)

If people are allowed to believe what they WANT to believe, then their ability to choose FREELY is important to maintain this premise. Once their ability to choose freely is hindered, then the choice is not truly theirs.
People ARE free to believe what they want to believe, even if they are forced. They may SAY that they believe but they do not really believe.

You are the one who said that "Faith is a gift", so where is the FREE WILL there?

IS THAT NOT EQUIVALENT TO FORCED CONVERSION?

So regardless of what the reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves if GOD (reward /punishment) is the reality.

It is unfortunate that your concept of God seems based on reward and punishment.

If you think about it deeply....punishment is a reward, though on the negative scale. It is what one would have EARNED through his belief and deeds.

[DFC]

Lets dissect this concept of religion. What is a religion made up of?

0. A common belief in GOD
1. Songs
2. Literature
3. Rituals
4. Significance of certain days of the year

What else forms a major part of religion?

Sorry but for Islam, minus the Songs. These are NOT part of our religion.

So Islam has None of these except for Songs?

[AdamB]

Where does faith in such things come from? And why don't we have faith in things like Santa Claus or Atlantis? What makes those books the foundation of faith as opposed to a peer-reviewed science journal or university textbook that is accepted by so many billions in the world who undertake science education?

Isn't it then just the need to believe that keeps them believing and having faith?

Possibly.
Faith is considered a gift from the divine. Either one has it or one does not.
Guidance is the gift. Faith is the result of the CHOICE.
For someone who has such a gift and believes in the divine, to condemn another simply because that other does not have such a gift, is foolish and wasteful... and arrogant.

Did Moses not "condemn" the Pharoah who believed himself to be THE LORD AND GOD?

So what were the prophets supposed to tell the people to whom they were sent? The gods you worship are fine but the Unseen ONE I worship is better?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

After all is said and done:
Don't people believe what they want to believe?
Is it not a matter of (personal) choice?

So regardless of what the reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves if GOD (reward /punishment) is the reality.

if?

what if it isn't? what then?
what if megadoc1 is right and you are wrong?
what if maj.tom is right and God doesn't exist?
what if crossdrilled is right and you are wrong?

the man who first said the earth revolved around the sun must have seemed like a "looney" back when he said it! He may have been the most revered scientist of his time, however people were not accustomed to that concept and so they would say he is crazy.

Sorry: not IF, rather WHEN.

So regardless of what the PERCEIVED reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves [b]WHEN [color=#FF0000]GOD (reward /punishment) is MADE MANIFEST TO BE the TRUE AND ONLY reality.[/color][/b]

assuming that you are right!

no one in here has been able to say why their religion is right and the others are wrong other than for their own faith in it. You yourself said faith is the choice they make through guidance, however you need to have faith that the guidance you are putting your faith in is the right one.

it is based on faith only

[AdamB]

After all is said and done:
Don't people believe what they want to believe?
Is it not a matter of (personal) choice?

So regardless of what the reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves if GOD (reward /punishment) is the reality.

if?

what if it isn't? what then?
what if megadoc1 is right and you are wrong?
what if maj.tom is right and God doesn't exist?
what if crossdrilled is right and you are wrong?

the man who first said the earth revolved around the sun must have seemed like a "looney" back when he said it! He may have been the most revered scientist of his time, however people were not accustomed to that concept and so they would say he is crazy.

Sorry: not IF, rather WHEN.

So regardless of what the PERCEIVED reality is, we all would have made our choice and will have no one to blame but ourselves [b]WHEN [color=#FF0000]GOD (reward /punishment) is MADE MANIFEST TO BE the TRUE AND ONLY reality.[/color][/b]

assuming that you are right!

no one in here has been able to say why their religion is right and the others are wrong other than for their own faith in it. You yourself said faith is the choice they make through guidance, however you need to have faith that the guidance you are putting your faith in is the right one.

it is based on faith only

Well if you shoot down the evidence and guidance that has been sent down, then it may appear like that.

For those who believe in GOD, some make the BEST choice they can, others don't.

As I said before, "People choose to believe in what they WANT to believe." Others don't choose to make a CHOICE. They are all free to make their choices.

[AdamB]

Len Goodman said, "You can do what you like, I have to be honest."

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

assuming that you are right!

no one in here has been able to say why their religion is right and the others are wrong other than for their own faith in it. You yourself said faith is the choice they make through guidance, however you need to have faith that the guidance you are putting your faith in is the right one.

it is based on faith only

Well if you shoot down the evidence and guidance that has been sent down, then it may appear like that.

but you are shooting down what megadoc1 is calling evidence

and he is shooting down what you are calling evidence

For those who believe in GOD, some make the BEST choice they can,

BEST according to whom?

Everyone who absolutely believes in God thinks that they have made the BEST choice, not so?

others don't.

that is just your opinion

As I said before, "People choose to believe in what they WANT to believe."

yes that is very apparent

Others don't choose to make a CHOICE.

what do you mean? Are you saying there are those who do not make a choice?

can you give me an example of someone who does not make, or has not made a choice?

[nareshseep]

many of us today do rituals and have practices and views that we borrow from many religions and dont even realise it - and nothing is wrong with that, however understand that those are human communal practices and not necessarily because we believe in ALL the religions equally.

we have all pulled various parts of religious beliefs to make our own - in fact you can see that even in the modern religions of today drawing ideas from ancient religions (Egyptians had the concept of the son of God being born through immaculate conception thousands of years before Christianity)

that is why there are so many sects of the major religions - because people take different things and put them together that appeals to them - they take the things that make them comfortable, the things that fill those holes in their life/mind and they create a new sect.

Following this trend of thought then nothing is wrong with a supersect?

but doing it again with slightly different beliefs and now trying to give it a name like Atheism 2.0 is just plain silly IMO

I agree, but it was used as an example.

the host at the end fittingly messed up the speaker a bit when he asked him if he was going to be the leader of his new religion

we don't need a movement or a new way of thinking to appreciate humanity and its culture.

This is where I disagree, the world needs it. Here he is saying he does not want to be the leader because he wants each person need to able to think for themselves and analyse the facts presented to them from the various major sects. This brings me back to my original question that has not been answered to date, how has the various religions benefited mankind? I am not interested in who is wrong or right.

It will always seem that those that do not follow are always leaders, when in truth and in fact they do not know where they are heading. The masses always end up following them, whether it is good or bad. This can be applied to the Past, Present and Future. Ah mean I dont support TTASA but the masses do and guess who outnumbers who in Trinidad.

What is said differs what is meant and that also differ from what the other person hears and understands, therefore communication whether verbal or literal is not 100% effective.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ what is a supersect?

I googled it but an insecticide came up
Did you mean a cult?

"how has religion benefited mankind?"
I assume you mean ALL religion and the entire concept of religion. In answering this should we single out none or a few? since ALL religions have had followers who have contributed greatly to humanity's advancement. While some religious notions have suffered mankind through wars, genocide and hate.

I love to look at and visit great temples, majids and cathedrals - I think they are spectacular to look at and awe at. However there are also great castles, forts and fortresses, skyscrapers etc etc that also command awe. So while religion and God's will may be great motivators for great architecture, it certainly is not a requirement and I think this goes for morality, community, culture, guidance, consolation etc.

I'm not disagreeing with you or him entirely, I'm actually doing what he suggested and I picked out of his talk the things that make sense and then suggest why I think the other points don't.

[AdamB]

assuming that you are right!

no one in here has been able to say why their religion is right and the others are wrong other than for their own faith in it. You yourself said faith is the choice they make through guidance, however you need to have faith that the guidance you are putting your faith in is the right one.

it is based on faith only

Well if you shoot down the evidence and guidance that has been sent down, then it may appear like that.

but you are shooting down what megadoc1 is calling evidence
We need to recognize and accept that some of those were for specific times and specific people who were at a specific condition. The guidance then was specific to that. What is more important is knowing when to let go and accept that those previous 'evidences' and guidance has been changed by man, corrupted. So they do not convey the true and complete reflection of the way that GOD Almighty wants for us NOW.

and he is shooting down what you are calling evidence
He can try but the difference here is that he rejects my way/prophet/revelation but I don't reject his prophet.

For those who believe in GOD, some make the BEST choice they can,

BEST according to whom?
According to their own intellect.

Everyone who absolutely believes in God thinks that they have made the BEST choice, not so?
Well maybe but not so in reality if their judgment is clouded.

others don't.

that is just your opinion
Yes, it's my opinion but it is true. There are some who choose for the wrong reasons - money, fame, status, etc.

As I said before, "People choose to believe in what they WANT to believe."

yes that is very apparent

Others don't choose to make a CHOICE.

what do you mean? Are you saying there are those who do not make a choice?
Not making a choice is equivalent to either
1. "Sticking one's head in the sand" and continuing to follow what your forefathers followed, not looking outside to see what exists. THAT IS ALSO A CHOICE.
2. Looking outside your confort zone but not choosing anything or rejecting everything. THAT IS ALSO A CHOICE.
3. Not looking outside, not choosing anything, rejecting everything. THAT IS ALSO A CHOICE.
4. Looking outside, or not looking outside, choosing everything to follow, not discriminating from one to the other. Following traditions, not seeking knowedge, just going with the flow. THAT IS ALSO A CHOICE.[color=#FFBF00][/color]
can you give me an example of someone who does not make, or has not made a choice?