The Religion Discussion

[MG Man]

Hagar was horrible, IMHO

[AdamB]

you stuck in delusion

happy with my delusion.

Delusion = Islam + Allaah as my LORD!!

Trying to figure out what is your motivation here, what are you looking for??

u eh figure it out yet?

Doh matter to me, I've done my duty to invite you to Islam. It's all in the hands of GOD now.

[AdamB]

Hagar was horrible, IMHO

I work with a Norwegian supplier. Believe me the Vikings are horrible!

[MG Man]

you stuck in delusion

happy with my delusion.

Delusion = Islam + Allaah as my LORD!!

Trying to figure out what is your motivation here, what are you looking for??

u eh figure it out yet?

Doh matter to me, I've done my duty to invite you to Islam. It's all in the hands of GOD now.

god has no form according to you

[AdamB]

you stuck in delusion

happy with my delusion.

Delusion = Islam + Allaah as my LORD!!

Trying to figure out what is your motivation here, what are you looking for??

u eh figure it out yet?

Doh matter to me, I've done my duty to invite you to Islam. It's all in the hands of GOD now.

god has no form according to you

Don't look at how little your sins are but LOOK AT THE MAGNIFICENCE OF THE ONE YOU DISOBEY!!

[MG Man]

I still wondering how it's in his hands now if he has no hands

[pioneer]

He's gonna say he was figuratively speaking, god has no hands...his hands are all around us.


fukkas be doin that opium shyt

[Kasey]

How then can you account for the Catholic Bible having 73 books and the protestant bible 66 books? 73-66=7 books outcast in the latter or 7 books added to the former?

That is a question I have never been able to get a good answer to.

Plus the Ethiopians have their own Bible with a total of 81 books in all.

But, notwithstanding, the basic message is the same in all Bibles.

No where in the bible does it say that the individual books were to be compiled together but it probably SEEMED GOOD TO SOMEONE.

Wonder when was the first time the Quran was put together and called Quran? Never really checked that out.

*FIXED*

[MG Man]

notice how he neatly sidesteps any references made to the fact that there were different versions following the profit's death, and that there wasn't an 'official' version for over a century after he died..........

bit putting that aside, something always puzzled me about a book written by god (via a man), designed to appeal to all men in all ages:
why are there rules in the koran specificaly related to interaction with the prophet? Things like 'when you go to him for his charitable handouts, just take your food and leave, don't waste his important time' etc, why would that be put in the book? Rules only relevant to a few decades while he was alive are no longer relevant....he could have just put signs on his door etc
Why was tuff like that put in the book by god?

[Kasey]

happy with my delusion.

Delusion = Islam + Allaah as my LORD!!

Trying to figure out what is your motivation here, what are you looking for??

u eh figure it out yet?

Doh matter to me, I've done my duty to invite you to Islam. It's all in the hands of GOD now.

god has no form according to you

Don't look at how little your sins are but LOOK AT THE MAGNIFICENCE OF THE ONE YOU DISOBEY!!

He is disobeying someone? When can this individual make himself shown? Where/what is his magnificence? Not seeing anything. Or he not powerful enough to do that?

Dont have time to read a book selected from an assortment and remembered.

[AdamB]

You deny!! Soon you shall be informed of all that you used to do and be recompensed. Wait for it, have patience!!

BTW MG and Pioneer, HE has hands befitting and according to HIS magnificence and Majesty!!

[AdamB]

notice how he neatly sidesteps any references made to the fact that there were different versions following the profit's death, and that there wasn't an 'official' version for over a century after he died..........

bit putting that aside, something always puzzled me about a book written by god (via a man), designed to appeal to all men in all ages:
why are there rules in the koran specificaly related to interaction with the prophet? Things like 'when you go to him for his charitable handouts, just take your food and leave, don't waste his important time' etc, why would that be put in the book? Rules only relevant to a few decades while he was alive are no longer relevant....he could have just put signs on his door etc
Why was tuff like that put in the book by god?

From where do you get your information, quote your source? You are grossly misinformed!!

The entire Qur'aan was memorized and recited before the prophet's death.

You are all in need of some optimism and some FAITH!! (Dspike included.)

I ask again, "What source of unbiased information shall be use for verification of these matters?". If we can't agree on one or more, then we just "spinning top in mud."

WHAT SAY YOU?

[MG Man]

Chapter 3 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins, Chapter 3

and why not comment on the other part of my post?

[AdamB]

Chapter 3 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins, Chapter 3

and why not comment on the other part of my post?

Ah busy working right now, in due time, maybe, have patience!!

[megadoc1]

the fact that there were different versions following the profit's death

MG yuh big dun...c......wiat! I saw what you did there

[MG Man]

lol
ever notice how adamB does have time to respond to the easy questions, but when you point out he sidesteppin the hard questions, he does be all importent and busy n such?

[d spike]

The entire Qur'aan was memorized and recited before the prophet's death.

You are all in need of some optimism and some FAITH!! (Dspike included.)

Of faith and optimism I have plenty, don't sweat.
What you could sweat about is the scribe of the Prophet I spoke about. Why did the prophet have him murdered?

Wives are jealous, yes...but Hagar was also his wife, that's what the bible says "he took her AS HIS WIFE."

AND YOU CAN'T FIGURE OUT WHAT THAT REALLY MEANS?

Now Sarai, Abram's wife, had borne him no children. But she had an Egyptian maidservant named Hagar; so she said to Abram, "The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant; perhaps I can build a family through her." Abram agreed to what Sarai said.

The situation is clear. Sarai is the wife of Abram, and Hagar is the servant of Sarai. It was a middle eastern custom in those times that a wife could give her slave to her husband and the child thus conceived would be counted as the child of the wife ("perhaps I can build a family through her").

So after Abram had been living in Canaan ten years, Sarai his wife took her Egyptian maidservant Hagar and gave her to her husband to be his wife. He slept with Hagar, and she conceived. When she knew she was pregnant, she began to despise her mistress. Then Sarai said to Abram, "You are responsible for the wrong I am suffering. I put my servant in your arms, and now that she knows she is pregnant, she despises me. May the LORD judge between you and me." "Your servant is in your hands," Abram said. "Do with her whatever you think best." Then Sarai mistreated Hagar; so she fled from her.

Even after the agreement between Sarai and Abram (v.2), Hagar is still considered her maidservant (v.3). The language is important. It is not Abram who takes Hagar into his tent, but Sarai gives Hagar to Abram. Sarai is in charge. After Abram slept with Hagar and conceived, not only Sarai (v.5) but also Abram still talks about Hagar as Sarai's servant (v.6), not as his (new) wife. Furthermore, the narrator continues to call Sarai "her mistress" (v.4).

The phrase "to be his wife" in verse 3 is merely a euphemism for sexual intercourse. That is clear from the phrase that immediately follows it as well as from the original request (v.2). The context makes it clear that Hagar remained the slave not of Abraham, but of Sarai.

All throughout Genesis we find Sarai addressed as Abraham's wife many times (11:29,31; 12:5,17,18,20; 13:1; 16:1,3; 17:15,19; 18:9,10; 20:2,7,11,12,14,18; 23:3,19) by the narrator, by Abraham, or by God himself. Hagar is never called the wife of Abraham, whether by Abraham, or by Sarah, or by God and only once by the narrator in the above discussed verse 16:3.

The custom referred to in verse 2 is well known in history and for instance in Babylonian law a wife was entitled to get children from her husband through her slave, without any idea that the slave would receive the status of a legal wife. In the Bible the same custom is employed again by Abraham's grandson Jacob with Lea and Rachel, his wives, and their maidservants Bilhah and Zilpah (Gen. 29:31 - 30:23).

And from AdamB's favourite reference material (other than mimeographed pamphlets handed out by hate-mongerers), Wikipedia:

According to Qisas Al-Anbiya, a collection of tales about the prophets, Hagar was the daughter of the King of Maghreb, a descendant of the prophet Salih. Her father was killed by Pharaoh Dhu l-'arsh and she was captured and taken as slave. Later, because of her royal blood, she was made mistress of the female slaves and given access to all of Pharaoh's wealth. Upon conversion to Abraham's faith, the Pharaoh gave Hagar to Sarah who gave her to Abraham. In this account, the name "Hagar" (called Hajar in Arabic) comes from Ha ajruka, Arabic for "here is your recompense".

There's a conspiracy theory that PAUL and his cohorts hijacked Jesus' religion, so the question is : FOLLOW JESUS OR FOLLOW PAUL?

The FIRST intelligent thing you have said for all your "contributions" (for want of a better word)!!!! Care to go into details? (And state what you know or think - don't quote from one of those cheap anti-Christian pamphlets, eh...)

How then can you account for the Catholic Bible having 73 books and the protestant bible 66 books? 73-66=7 books outcast in the latter or 7 books added to the former?

That is a question I have never been able to get a good answer to.

Plus the Ethiopians have their own Bible with a total of 81 books in all.

But, notwithstanding, the basic message is the same in all Bibles.

No where in the bible does it say that the individual books were to be compiled together but it probably SEEMED GOOD TO SOMEONE.

Wonder when was the first time the books were put together and called bible? Never really checked that out.

I answered that moons ago, but I will repost it again. Unfortunately, I can't do it now as I just came back from the bush... and I am loading up to head back for the weekend in a little while (MG, yuh missing out!!!) ...if it hasn't been dealt with when I return, I will do the needful - but I am sure that Wikipedia has most, if not all, of the information required to satisfy your query.

[maj. tom]

Iranian university bans on women causes consternation

With the start of the new Iranian academic year, a raft of restrictions on courses open to female students has been introduced, raising questions about the rights of women to education in Iran - and the long-term impact such exclusions might have.

More than 30 universities have introduced new rules banning female students from almost 80 different degree courses.

These include a bewildering variety of subjects from engineering, nuclear physics and computer science, to English literature, archaeology and business.

No official reason has been given for the move, but campaigners, including Nobel Prize winning lawyer Shirin Ebadi, allege it is part of a deliberate policy by the authorities to exclude women from education.

"The Iranian government is using various initiatives… to restrict women's access to education, to stop them being active in society, and to return them to the home," she told the BBC.

Higher Education Minister Kamran Daneshjoo has sought to play down the situation, stressing Iran's strong track record in getting young people into higher education and saying that despite the changes, 90% of university courses are still open to both men and women.


Men outnumbered

Iran was one of the first countries in the Middle East to allow women to study at university and since the Islamic Revolution in 1979 it has made big efforts to encourage more girls to enrol in higher education.

The gap between the numbers of male and female students has gradually narrowed. In 2001 women outnumbered men for the first time and they now make up more than 60% of the overall student body.


A university entrance exam at a high school in Tehran, June 2009 University entrance exams are highly competitive in Iran, with the number of female applicants increasing each year

Year-on-year more Iranian women than men are applying for university places, motivated some say by the chance to live a more independent life, to have a career and to escape the pressure from parents to stay at home and to get married.

Women are well-represented across a wide range of professions and there are many female engineers, scientists and doctors.

But many in Iran fear that the new restrictions could now undermine this achievement.

"I wanted to study architecture and civil engineering," says Leila, a young woman from the south of Iran. "But access for girls has been cut by fifty per cent, and there's a chance I won't get into university at all this year."

“Start Quote

Traditional politicians now see educated and powerful women as a threat”

-Saeed Moidfar Retired professor from Tehran

In the early days after the Islamic revolution, universities were one of the few places where young Iranian men and women could mix relatively freely.

Over the years this gradually changed, with universities introducing stricter measures like separate entrances, lecture halls and even canteens for men and women.

Since the unrest after the 2009 presidential election this process has accelerated as conservative politicians have tightened their grip on the country.

Women played a key role in those protests - from the traditionally veiled but surprisingly outspoken wives of the two main opposition candidates, to the glamorous green-scarved demonstrators out on the streets of Tehran and other cities.


A woman protests after a heavily disputed Presidential election in June 2009 in Tehran's Azadi Square Some say it was the prominient role of women in 2009's protests that has unnerved Iran's conservative leaders

Some Iranians say it was the sight of so many young Iranian women at the forefront of the protests in 2009 that unnerved the country's conservative leaders and prompted them into action.

"The women's movement has been challenging Iran's male-dominated establishment for several years," says Saeed Moidfar, a retired sociology professor from Tehran.

"Traditional politicians now see educated and powerful women as a threat."

'Islamisation'

In a speech after the 2009 protests, the country's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei called for the "Islamisation" of universities and criticised subjects like sociology, which he said were too western-influenced and had no place in the Iranian Islamic curriculum.

Since then, there have been many changes at universities, with courses cut and long-serving academic staff replaced with conservative loyalists.

“Start Quote

From age 16 I knew I wanted to be a mechanical engineer, I really worked hard for it ... But although I got high marks in the entrance exam, I've ended up with a place to study art and design instead”

Noushin A student from Esfahan

Many see the new restrictions on female students as a continuation of this process.

In August 2012 Ayatollah Khamenei made another widely-discussed speech calling for Iranians to return to traditional values and to have more children.

It was an affront to many in a country which pioneered family planning and has won praise from around the world for its emphasis on the importance of providing families with access to contraception.

"People are more educated now and they are more concerned about the size of their families," says Saeed Moidfar. "I doubt that the government plans will change anything."

However, since the speech there have been reports of cutbacks in family planning programmes, and in sex education classes at universities.

It is not yet clear exactly how many women students have been affected by the new rules on university entrance. But as the new academic year begins, at least some have had to completely rethink their career plans.

"From the age of 16 I knew I wanted to be a mechanical engineer, and I really worked hard for it," says Noushin from Esfahan. "But although I got high marks in the National University entrance exam, I've ended up with a place to study art and design instead."

Over the coming months campaigners will be watching closely to track the effects of the policy and to try to gauge the longer-term implications.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19665615
BBC © 2012

[Bizzare]

yasalama should try being less of a douche

[AdamB]

The entire Qur'aan was memorized and recited before the prophet's death.

You are all in need of some optimism and some FAITH!! (Dspike included.)

Of faith and optimism I have plenty, don't sweat. LOL
What you could sweat about is the scribe of the Prophet I spoke about. Why did the prophet have him murdered?
Bring something factual evidence if you want to continue this line of discussion, please. Who is the scribe (his name) and when was he supposed murdered?

There's a conspiracy theory that PAUL and his cohorts hijacked Jesus' religion, so the question is : FOLLOW JESUS OR FOLLOW PAUL?

The FIRST intelligent thing you have said for all your "contributions" (for want of a better word)!!!! Care to go into details? (And state what you know or think - don't quote from one of those cheap anti-Christian pamphlets, eh...)

Almost everything that is the religion of Christianity today opposes what Jesus said, preached and taught. It is painfully obvious for those who have "eyes" to see.
quote]

[nareshseep]

Almost everything that is the religion of Christianity today opposes what Jesus said, preached and taught. It is painfully obvious for those who have "eyes" to see.
quote]

Thats true... but for all religions.

[AdamB]

The entire Qur'aan was memorized and recited before the prophet's death.

You are all in need of some optimism and some FAITH!! (Dspike included.)

Of faith and optimism I have plenty, don't sweat. LOL
What you could sweat about is the scribe of the Prophet I spoke about. Why did the prophet have him murdered?
Bring something factual evidence if you want to continue this line of discussion, please. Who is the scribe (his name) and when was he supposed murdered?

Dspike,
When yuh done sweat in d bush, sweat the article below:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Sarh/

[bluefete]

What a sad guy.

‘The Science Guy’ Bill Nye wades into evolution debate with online video
Nye video urges parents not to pass religious-based doubts about evolution down to their children.

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Monday, September 24, 2012, 8:40 AM

The man known to a generation of Americans as "The Science Guy" is condemning efforts by some Christian groups to cast doubts on evolution and lawmakers who want to bring the Bible into science classrooms.

Bill Nye, a mechanical engineer and star of the popular 1990s TV show "Bill Nye The Science Guy," has waded into the evolution debate with an online video that urges parents not to pass their religious-based doubts about evolution on to their children.

Christians who view the stories of the Old Testament as historical fact have come to be known as creationists, and many argue that the world was created by God just a few thousand years ago.

"The Earth is not 6,000 or 10,000 years old," Nye said in an interview with The Associated Press. "It's not. And if that conflicts with your beliefs, I strongly feel you should question your beliefs."

Millions of Americans do hold those beliefs, according to a June Gallup poll that found 46 percent of Americans believe God created humans in their present form about 10,000 years ago.

Nye, 56, also decried efforts in recent years by lawmakers and school boards in some states to present Bible stories as an alternative to evolution in public schools. Tennessee passed a law earlier this year that protects teachers who let students criticize evolution and other scientific theories. That echoes a Louisiana law passed in 2008 that allows teachers to introduce supplemental teaching materials in science classes.


Bill Nye, host of television's "Bill Nye the Science Guy," recently waded into the evolution debate with an online video urging parents not to pass their religious-based doubts about evolution on to their children.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... z27RPWYEfc


"If we raise a generation of students who don't believe in the process of science, who think everything that we've come to know about nature and the universe can be dismissed by a few sentences translated into English from some ancient text, you're not going to continue to innovate," Nye said in a wide-ranging telephone interview.

The brief online video was not Nye's first foray into the combustible debate, but "it's the first time it's gotten to be such a big deal."

"I can see where one gets so caught up in this (debate) that you say something that will galvanize people in a bad way, that will make them hate you forever," he said. "But I emphasize that I'm not questioning someone's religion - much of that is how you were brought up."

In the video he tells adults they can dismiss evolution, "but don't make your kids do it. Because we need them." Posted by Big Think, an online knowledge forum, the clip went viral and has 4.6 million views on YouTube. It has garnered 182,000 comments from critics and supporters.

It drew the ire of the creationism group Answers in Genesis, which built a biblically based Creation Museum in Kentucky that teaches the stories of the Old Testament and has attracted headlines for its assertion that dinosaurs roamed alongside Adam and Eve.

The group produced a response video featuring two scientists who say the Bible has the true account of Earth's origins, and that "children should be exposed to both ideas concerning our past."

Nye, who is prone to inject dry humor into scientific discussions, said Earth is about 4.5 billion years old.

"What I find troubling, when you listen to these people ... once in a while I get the impression that they're not kidding," Nye said.

Ken Ham, a co-founder of Answers in Genesis, said dating methods used by scientists to measure the age of the earth are contradictory and many don't point to millions or billions of years of time.

"We say the only dating method that is absolute is the Word of God," Ham said. "Time is the crucial factor for Bill Nye. Without the time of millions of years, you can't postulate evolution change."

America is home to the world's biggest creationist following, Ham said, and the $27 million Creation Museum has averaged about 330,000 visitors a year since it opened just south of Cincinnati in 2007.

Nye can't talk for long about science without mentioning his current passion: speaking out against proposed government cuts to NASA's planetary sciences division. Nye is CEO of The Planetary Society, an organization in Pasadena, Calif., that promotes space exploration.

NASA's landing of the Curiosity rover on Mars last month is the kind of technological achievement that get kids interested in science, Nye said, but funding cuts would endanger future missions.

He said if Curiosity is able to find evidence of life on Mars - perhaps in the form of fossilized microorganisms - it would "change the world."

"It would change the way everybody feels about his or her place in space," he said. "And we do that for $300 million a year, which is not even a buck a person. We don't want to cut that."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... z27RPJpFvK

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ how is that sad?

he is promoting exploration and discovery

[d spike]

How then can you account for the Catholic Bible having 73 books and the protestant bible 66 books? 73-66=7 books outcast in the latter or 7 books added to the former?

That is a question I have never been able to get a good answer to.

Plus the Ethiopians have their own Bible with a total of 81 books in all.

But, notwithstanding, the basic message is the same in all Bibles.

No where in the bible does it say that the individual books were to be compiled together but it probably SEEMED GOOD TO SOMEONE.

Wonder when was the first time the books were put together and called bible? Never really checked that out.

I can appreciate the fervour of the Muslims, where ensuring that their scriptures remain exactly the way they were written, thus maintaining perfect originality of their writings through time.
The bible, however, is quite different in the way it was compiled, the multiplicity of authors of the individual parts (their idiom, personality, and even religious beliefs varied) and the time-span that it covers.
These writings were compiled almost 400 years after Christ's crucifixion, and some of it is made up of even smaller compilations.
The writings that were finally considered for membership in the Christian book club (aka the bible) at that time fell into three categories: protocanonical books (those everybody accepted as scripture), deutercanonical books (those that some accepted and some didn't), and apocrypha (books that weren't seen as scripture - the word is Greek for "writings").

When Luther came along and began his rant, he decided that it was a lot easier to solve the mess the Western Church was in by rejecting the parts of scripture that referred to the issues he had problems with. He ended up throwing some out onto the garbage heap of "not truly inspired" (seven deutercanonical books from the Old Testament and Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations from the New Testament) but later Protestants dragged them back inside the house - only the New Testament ones, though.

All these books are generally accepted as scripture by Christians, because of what they speak about (the belief that they contain revealed truth) not because of who wrote them.

The complete "bible" was collated during the fourth century. Folks had to agree on which of all the scriptures used contained revealed truth and which were just writings, so during a series of meetings which all the top holy rollers of the time attended, lists of approved scripture were agreed upon.

Hellenistic Jews used to describe their sacred books as ta biblia, which is Greek for books. Christians started using the term around 223AD.

...but Hagar was also his wife, that's what the bible says "he took her AS HIS WIFE."

So... have you figured out as yet what that meant?

There's a conspiracy theory that PAUL and his cohorts hijacked Jesus' religion, so the question is : FOLLOW JESUS OR FOLLOW PAUL?

The FIRST intelligent thing you have said for all your "contributions" (for want of a better word)!!!! Care to go into details? (And state what you know or think - don't quote from one of those cheap anti-Christian pamphlets, eh...)

Almost everything that is the religion of Christianity today opposes what Jesus said, preached and taught. It is painfully obvious for those who have "eyes" to see.

I just love the effort put into writing this detailed response and the painstaking concern for clarity.

Dspike,
When yuh done sweat in d bush, sweat the article below:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Sarh/

I don't "sweat" in the bush, laddie... I relax and enjoy myself. Perspiration is a natural result of activity. "Sweating" is for bright-light slickers who view my communing with nature as "wuk".
All this site shows is that there is a wide variety of versions of what befell the chap. Wikipedia forms an interesting opinion based on this same multiplicity of versions:
"…merely proves that the primary source materials of Islam cannot be trusted since they are full of contradictions and mistakes."
It is not surprising that Muslims prefer to accept the versions that don’t make the Prophet look like a murderer – and it is even less surprising that they justify this decision based on the “fact” that the Prophet “wouldn’t do a thing like that, because he was the Prophet”…

[AdamB]

...but Hagar was also his wife, that's what the bible says "he took her AS HIS WIFE."

So... have you figured out as yet what that meant?

GENESIS CHAPTER 16 NOW Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
My point was that is IS STATED in the Bible that Abraham took Hagar AS HIS WIFE (TO BE HIS WIFE).
You can twist and turn the meaning as you wish (which is what Christians are generally accused of in relation to the wording and meaning of the bible) but the Bible said she was his wife. Whoever says otherwise, is possible accusing a great prophet (Abraham) of illegal sexual intercourse?? Or was it legal / permissible then...BUT NOT NOW??!!!

Also note the statement of Sarai "it may be that I may obtain children by her." Does this not suggest that the children would be legitimate?

[RBphoto]

*jussaying* religion has civilized the human race. Our ancestors had this magnificent machine called a brain, but the problem is that our colective knoledge has been evolving (round earth, atmosphere, reasons for the seasons etc.). We want to know how everything ticks, the reason behind something. It is my oppinion that man has sought religion to fill in the gaps in our curiosity so we could focus on the task at hand of being civilized. Once we are idoctrinated into a system of language and thought, order could be brought to a a society. Within that social framework, collective knoledge could be oreserved, pluss the DNA of a society to keep customs and traditions alive.

One can say that we have evoled beyond the need for blinders, where science is explaining natural phenomena, and our curiosity leads us to use the scientific method to satisfy it, and using the scientific method of experiment and verification of hypothesis, we can move forward from failed ideas, or revisit them in a different way later.

Science was probably the true religion we were seeking all along, with all the explanations, and the means to find and bridge gaps in our knoledge. Humans are building machines to disect sub atomic particles to find answers to the origins of the universe. No amount of reading any religous text will reveal any new evidence except: "I say it is this way, blindly follow" in face, religious clerics should not be phased by science... if they are right, all of our experements will one day prove the exsistence of god, molded in their fashion. So we should just all sit back and relax and let sciennce prove which religion is correct... or all of them are wrong.

[megadoc1]

...but Hagar was also his wife, that's what the bible says "he took her AS HIS WIFE."

So... have you figured out as yet what that meant?

GENESIS CHAPTER 16 NOW Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
My point was that is IS STATED in the Bible that Abraham took Hagar AS HIS WIFE (TO BE HIS WIFE).
You can twist and turn the meaning as you wish (which is what Christians are generally accused of in relation to the wording and meaning of the bible) but the Bible said she was his wife. Whoever says otherwise, is possible accusing a great prophet (Abraham) of illegal sexual intercourse?? Or was it legal / permissible then...BUT NOT NOW??!!!

Also note the statement of Sarai "it may be that I may obtain children by her." Does this not suggest that the children would be legitimate?

adam b I know without a doubt that you did not read what d spike wrote At the top of the page!

[AdamB]

...but Hagar was also his wife, that's what the bible says "he took her AS HIS WIFE."

So... have you figured out as yet what that meant?

GENESIS CHAPTER 16 NOW Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
2 And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
3 And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
My point was that is IS STATED in the Bible that Abraham took Hagar AS HIS WIFE (TO BE HIS WIFE).
You can twist and turn the meaning as you wish (which is what Christians are generally accused of in relation to the wording and meaning of the bible) but the Bible said she was his wife. Whoever says otherwise, is possible accusing a great prophet (Abraham) of illegal sexual intercourse?? Or was it legal / permissible then...BUT NOT NOW??!!!

Also note the statement of Sarai "it may be that I may obtain children by her." Does this not suggest that the children would be legitimate?

adam b I know without a doubt that you did not read what d spike wrote At the top of the page!

Megadoc,
Have you not read what I wrote PLAINLY from the Bible? What is the obviously understood meaning?

YOU PREFER (OR IT HAS BECOME THE NORM) TO FOLLOW THE MISGUIDED DESIRES OF THOSE WHO "CORRECT THE WORD OF GOD"!!

THAT'S WHAT I KNOW, WITHOUT A DOUBT!!!

[RBphoto]

So... after a few thousand years... how is the price of bodi affected by who take their handmaid to make a chirren because thier wife was not able? Man haffi breed.