The Religion Discussion

[d spike]

Dspike,
The man made a scientific study that took TIME (months / years). You are saying that he accepted Islam and then the next morning he published his book!! Do you deny that he was a christian before he accepted Islam?

Dr. William F. Campbell, author of "The Qur'an and the Bible in the Light of History and Science", in early 1996 stated the following information:

At some time during his life, Dr Bucaille became the family physician of King Faisal. During this time he wrote his book, "The Bible, the Qur'an and Science", publishing it in 1975. I think that he wrote it in anger at the Catholic church, and then discovered that he could make a lot of money which he must have done considering all the translations his book has gone through.

Dr. Bucaille knows Catholicism quite well and quotes modernistic Catholic scholars. My interpretation, without personal contact with Bucaille, is that he was a fairly interested Catholic who discovered that priests were quoting the Torah of Moses as a valid authority on Sunday, and then writing articles on Monday through Saturday which showed they did not believe Moses wrote anything. This deception made him very angry. (I had this same experience when I was taught higher criticism as a young Protestant.) Anyway, it is clear that he did not write his book as a believing Christian.

While I never knew the fellow, I certainly do know Christians who either converted to another faith or left orthodox Christianity to join a fundamentalist sect, and in my opinion, they weren't very well informed about their faith. (I have also known Muslims and Hindus who have converted to Christianity, and I am also of the opinion that they were not well informed of their original religions either!)

Dr. William F. Campbell points out in "The Qur'an and the Bible in the Light of History and Science" that Dr. Bucaille twists the Arabic translations in order to show how the Koran is "correct" ("Put in other words, Bucaille is saying …‘No body has translated the Qur’an correctly, until I Dr. Bucaille came along.' - Dr. Campbell)...

So, you are talking about a fellow who was filled with dislike for his old religion, held with disdain the scholars of the very scriptures he claimed to hold in esteem (there is even the question whether he actually converted to Islam, or just wrote a lot of brown-nosing material to make money off of fat, wealthy sheiks who were glad for the ego-stroking...)
...are you sure you want to refer to his writings as a "scientific" study?

I ask you then to direct us to unbiased studies of the foundation (scriptures) of Islam, Christianity and Hinduism in the light of real documented historical information, language and preservation. What do the men of substance say about them?

You never read my previous posts, did you?
You can find what you are looking for right where you are.
Mature minds can discuss differing religions, but you have made it quite clear in almost all your posts that you are looking for targets to spit at, in the insecure and mistaken belief that it makes your choice look better.
Pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

This is the reason why I have kept asking for your evidence of your creed FROM YOUR RELIGIOUS SCRIPTURES. Everything that forms the true and correct religion of Islam has its proofs from our valid sources aka our napkin but if you can't even prove yours even from YOUR napkin, then certainly that is a sad state of affairs.

First of all, this is a DISCUSSION, not a court case. I am stating my OPINION.
You have made everyone aware by your outbursts and fanaticism that you cannot cope with objection or opposition. I have nothing to PROVE to you.

As I have said before to other fundamentalist detractors: I have no wish nor desire to convert anyone. I know very well that you will not even bother to think about what I am saying, except to look for some way of rebutting. I respond merely to serve as a voice for the benefit of those who look in.

Muslims are critical of Jews because they had the knowledge (scriptures) but did not follow (were disobedient), taking their Rabbis as LORDS instead of Allah (making permissible what was prohibited and making prohibited what was permissible).

Muslims are critical of Christians because they innovated and strayed from the religion of GOD brought to them by Jesus, following misguidance not substantiated by firm knowledge.

Since you wish to bring this up again, let us take a closer look at this erroneous nonsense about the followers of the Bible.


Muslim jurists and scholars suffer from being torn between accepting the Bible as scripture and denying and attacking the very same Bible as the corrupted and unreliable word of God. This didn't happen with the first Muslims until they actually read the Bible for themselves and only then compared it to the Koran - written more than six hundred years after the birth of Christianity, and three hundred years after the collation of scriptures now known as the Bible - the very scripture that they believed confirmed the scriptures of the Jews and Christians:

It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus). (Surah 3:3 Yusuf Ali)

And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone. (Surah 2:41 Yusuf Ali)

And when there cometh unto them a messenger from Allah, confirming that which they possess, a party of those who have received the Scripture fling the Scripture of Allah behind their backs as if they knew not. (Surah 2:101 Pickthall)

O ye unto whom the Scripture hath been given! Believe in what We have revealed confirming that which ye possess, before We destroy countenances so as to confound them, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers (of old time). The commandment of Allah is always executed. (Surah 4:47 Pickthall)

And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. (Surah 5:48 Pickthall)

As for that which We inspire in thee of the Scripture, it is the Truth confirming that which was (revealed) before it. Lo! Allah is indeed Observer, Seer of His slaves. (Surah 35:31 Pickthall)

To solve this problem of conflicting beliefs, Muslims made a distinction between the former and present form of the Bible: they started to claim that the Bible had been tampered with, thus explaining the differences and contradictions between the Koran and the Bible. Remarkably enough, these claims means that Muslims distorted their own scripture when they asserted despite the lack of evidence that the revelations preceding the Koran were no longer in their original form. As shown in some of the verses quoted above, the author of the Koran made it clear that what was confirmed was not lost scriptures, but the very scriptures possessed by Jews and Christians in Muhammed’s era!

The writer of the Koran asked Muhammed’s followers to believe in existing and real books rather than in some lost copies of the previous revelations when he devised the following verse:

Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to God (in Islam)." (Surah 2:136 Yusuf Ali)

Now, with regards to this verse, why did the writer not ask Muslims to believe in the idea of former revelations rather than in the texts if there were any doubts concerning their originality or wished to teach the doctrine of corruption? Are Muslims disobeying the instruction to consider all the revelations equal, by claiming that the Bible is distorted and not authentic?

[Humes]

Are we go over this again? Scientists have NOT DISCOVERED that EVOLUTION did actually happen! It is a mere theory.

you are the one going over this again

You misunderstand the meaning of the term scientific theory and you are confusing it with the word hypothesis.

A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment."

He's a damn idiot if after the dozens of times that that's been explained, he can still trot out that BS "it's just a theory" argument.

Mentally stunted, or willingly ignorant. Nobody who's actually been reading this thread for 50+ pages should still be so clueless about something so basic.

[brams112]

Hear nah ent there exist a rule about quotes on tuner?

[Kasey]

Are we go over this again? Scientists have NOT DISCOVERED that EVOLUTION did actually happen! It is a mere theory.

you are the one going over this again

You misunderstand the meaning of the term scientific theory and you are confusing it with the word hypothesis.

A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment."

He's a damn idiot if after the dozens of times that that's been explained, he can still trot out that BS "it's just a theory" argument.

Mentally stunted, or willingly ignorant. Nobody who's actually been reading this thread for 50+ pages should still be so clueless about something so basic.

This was established a long, long while ago. Primarily looking to condemn other beliefs thinking this might make his look good. Demanding proof. Saying Dwayne and Bluefete was 'the only level headed people in here' because, for a breif moment, it appeared that they supported one of his rantings!!

Really, even if the Koran has been kept authentic after all these years, what evidence is there that it was put together/'revealed' right in the first place? Scholars these days were not present back then so we cannot go to them for advice, even if was memorized by 'many', at different times, there is no proof of this. How many different sources give this information?

Fact: the only thing that says that it is right is itself (islam).

[pioneer]

AdamB do you care to comment on the actions of your brothers in libya...murdering innocent people because a movie was made (by someone else) of your prophet?

[MG Man]

AdamB do you care to comment on the actions of your brothers in libya...murdering innocent people because a movie was made (by someone else) of your prophet?

he has the ultimate comeback: they not real muslims and they misrepresenting the koran etc etc etc

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

This was established a long, long while ago. Primarily looking to condemn other beliefs thinking this might make his look good. Demanding proof. Saying Dwayne and Bluefete was 'the only level headed people in here' because, for a breif moment, it appeared that they supported one of his rantings!!

Really, even if the Koran has been kept authentic after all these years, what evidence is there that it was put together/'revealed' right in the first place? Scholars these days were not present back then so we cannot go to them for advice, even if was memorized by 'many', at different times, there is no proof of this. How many different sources give this information?

Fact: the only thing that says that it is right is itself (islam).

well the same can be said of any religious book or teachings - the bible claims that it is right and the torah claims that it is right and the gita claims that it is right - it would be silly of a religious book to claim it was wrong.

which is why I keep asking, because it would seem the "rightness" of a religious text is based solely on your personal faith and beliefs.

[pioneer]

brb religion based on interpritation

[MG Man]

This was established a long, long while ago. Primarily looking to condemn other beliefs thinking this might make his look good. Demanding proof. Saying Dwayne and Bluefete was 'the only level headed people in here' because, for a breif moment, it appeared that they supported one of his rantings!!

Really, even if the Koran has been kept authentic after all these years, what evidence is there that it was put together/'revealed' right in the first place? Scholars these days were not present back then so we cannot go to them for advice, even if was memorized by 'many', at different times, there is no proof of this. How many different sources give this information?

Fact: the only thing that says that it is right is itself (islam).

well the same can be said of any religious book or teachings - the bible claims that it is right and the torah claims that it is right and the gita claims that it is right - it would be silly of a religious book to claim it was wrong.

which is why I keep asking, because it would seem the "rightness" of a religious text is based solely on your personal faith and beliefs.

duane, where in the gita does it say it is right?
I was always led to believe hinduism does not proclaim itself to be the one right path, ie tolerates other religions etc etc..........I always thought that was cool.........now u say it nuh so?

[MG Man]

'whosoever follows any faith and worships me under whatsoever denomination in whatsoever form with steadfastness, his faith I shall indeed reinforce'
- Krishna, form the Gita

Taken from "Hinduism, an Introduction" by Shakunthala Jagannathan

I cannot vouch for the authenticity yadda yadda...it's just a book I bought some years ago and found it an interesting read

[maj. tom]

[MG Man]

One of his best interviews

I love his documentaries
The Trials of Life was awesome

[bluefete]

Strangely though some will call out to a God they don't believe exist if they are in a life and death situation

It is logical to assume that an atheist would call God's name in a life and death situation purely as a figure of speech such as "oh lord" or "oh god mih dog dead".


Let me put it another way, as a Christian, if you were in a life and death situation, you would not call the name of Allah, Lakshmi or call on Superman to save you - since none of those things you have faith in. So an atheist would not call on a God that he/she does not have faith in.

understand?

But isn't it interesting, Duane, that these same people never say "Oh Devil!!!"

Somehow they always call out to God at the relevant times.

[MG Man]

not true
when I nearly rolled my car, it was more 'whattheFUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

lots of people use 'what the devil?!' as an expression
but as duane said, the 'oh god' thing is largely social conditioning

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Strangely though some will call out to a God they don't believe exist if they are in a life and death situation

It is logical to assume that an atheist would call God's name in a life and death situation purely as a figure of speech such as "oh lord" or "oh god mih dog dead".


Let me put it another way, as a Christian, if you were in a life and death situation, you would not call the name of Allah, Lakshmi or call on Superman to save you - since none of those things you have faith in. So an atheist would not call on a God that he/she does not have faith in.

understand?

But isn't it interesting, Duane, that these same people never say "Oh Devil!!!"

Somehow they always call out to God at the relevant times.

what?

why would they say "oh devil"?

as far as I know atheists do not believe the devil / satan exists either

because someone does not believe in God does not mean they worship the devil!

[maj. tom]

... and cats do not say "oh god" either. they pray to a Long Johnson.

[Humes]

It's not interesting at all. It's about as mundane as language gets.

We've been socialised that way, bluefete. We grow up and live in a society where "Oh God" is a common vocal response to certain situations, so we emulate it. Nobody says "Oh Satan" because it's not a common exclamation. But people say "What the hell?" all the time.

By the way, is it relevant to call out "Oh God" in the throes of passion while having sex? Because adulterers and homosexuals do it all the time, I'm sure.

People say "Oh sh1t!" and "Oh f**k!" too...and in exactly the same "relevant" situations.

Is that really the kinda evidence you want to put forward for the validity of belief? It's actually a pathetic argument.

[MG Man]

based on bluefete's logic, my god has many names..........[edited]

[AdamB]

Are we go over this again? Scientists have NOT DISCOVERED that EVOLUTION did actually happen! It is a mere theory.

you are the one going over this again

You misunderstand the meaning of the term scientific theory and you are confusing it with the word hypothesis.

A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment."

He's a damn idiot if after the dozens of times that that's been explained, he can still trot out that BS "it's just a theory" argument.

Mentally stunted, or willingly ignorant. Nobody who's actually been reading this thread for 50+ pages should still be so clueless about something so basic.

This was established a long, long while ago. Primarily looking to condemn other beliefs thinking this might make his look good. Demanding proof. Saying Dwayne and Bluefete was 'the only level headed people in here' because, for a breif moment, it appeared that they supported one of his rantings!!

Really, even if the Koran has been kept authentic after all these years, what evidence is there that it was put together/'revealed' right in the first place?
IT IS MEMORIZED WORD FOR WORD, LETTER FOR LETTER IN THE ORIGINAL ARABIC LANGUAGE!!!
Scholars these days were not present back then so we cannot go to them for advice, even if was memorized by 'many', at different times, there is no proof of this. How many different sources give this information? YOU DENY A THING WHICH IS WELL ESTABLISHED. THE POINT OF EVIDENCE, [size=200]YOU DENY!!!ONE WONDERS WHAT EVIDENCE YOU HAVE IN YOUR OWN RELIGION / SCRIPTURES...THAT IS FOR YOU TO CONTEMPLATE!![/size]

Fact: the only thing that says that it is right is itself (islam).

Sorry but it's not Islam, it is ALLAH, HE IS AL-HAQQ!! (THE TRUTH / RIGHT!!!

[AdamB]

It is mutually exclusive when you want to literally follow scripture.

How else are we to follow scripture? In what manner did GOD intend for us to follow HIS scriptures, if not literally? Would GOD reveal scripture and then say don't follow it "literally"? Well, you said literally, Muslims say "ON THEIR OBVIOUSLY UNDERSTOOD MEANING/S".

When it is not followed this way, it leads to many misguided sects because each one wants to follow their interpretation, their desire!! It has happened to ALL RELIGIONS including Islam but we know who are the "saved sect", the ones on the true and correct guidance.

[bluefete]

d spike it isn't nonsense..... We are no longer discussing the medium through which you obtained your belief - whether it be proof or faith. We are discussing how valid is faith as a means of believing in something. Proof is a valid means of believing, no argument there. To me, history proved faith to be invalid as a means of believing in something.

Using your example, once upon a time it did take faith to believe that the world was round/flat and it did take faith to believe that the moon was/wasn't made of cheese. Whether the word faith was used or not to describe such blind belief, it is the same concept. Basically hope and belief in the unproven/unseen. Now Science and technology has PROVEN otherwise. Not through faith, but through proof.

It is indeed the same for religion.

But was it not the Scientists who had people believing the world was flat???

But the clergy also did a hatchet job on the people back then because many were illiterate. So they put out what they wanted people to believe and anyone who disagreed - well- check the Inquisition.

[bluefete]

based on bluefete's logic, my god has many names..........[edited]

When you are dancing in the friendly flames, I don't want to be anywhere close to you.

[AdamB]

Strangely though some will call out to a God they don't believe exist if they are in a life and death situation

It is logical to assume that an atheist would call God's name in a life and death situation purely as a figure of speech such as "oh lord" or "oh god mih dog dead".


Let me put it another way, as a Christian, if you were in a life and death situation, you would not call the name of Allah, Lakshmi or call on Superman to save you - since none of those things you have faith in. So an atheist would not call on a God that he/she does not have faith in.

understand?

But isn't it interesting, Duane, that these same people never say "Oh Devil!!!"

Somehow they always call out to God at the relevant times.

what?

why would they say "oh devil"?

as far as I know atheists do not believe the devil / satan exists either

because someone does not believe in God does not mean they worship the devil!

A true story. About 3 yrs ago, an old (catholic) school friend of mine was held up by bandits, robbed and tied up and put in the trunk of his car. The bandits lit the car (with fire eh) and fled. He was saved but sustained burns on his hands while trying to escape. (May Allah save us from such a horrible trial).

Afterwards, I asked him when he was in that situation, "Who did you turn to? On whom did you place your trust (mentally and verbally)?" I was thinking ok he would say GOD the father or the son (Jesus).

He said he called on his "ANCESTORS" to save him (his dead ancestors who are buried in their graves)!! He said it's what Catholics believe.

Megadoc, can you confirm?

[bluefete]

^ independent, historical, unbiased critical studies sounds like the scientific method to me

SCIENCE - systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

Using that method, scientists discovered that humans evolved from single cell life forms and we share common descendants with other modern primates.

"Humans (Homo sapiens) are primates of the family Hominidae, and the only living species of the genus Homo. They originated in Africa, where they reached anatomical modernity about 200,000 years ago and began to exhibit full behavioral modernity around 50,000 years ago."

That does not support the Adam and Eve story the Muslims, Jews and Christians claim.

So how do you continue from there?

But yet they refuse to get into a discussion about the Origin of these single cell life forms.

[bluefete]

Strangely though some will call out to a God they don't believe exist if they are in a life and death situation

It is logical to assume that an atheist would call God's name in a life and death situation purely as a figure of speech such as "oh lord" or "oh god mih dog dead".


Let me put it another way, as a Christian, if you were in a life and death situation, you would not call the name of Allah, Lakshmi or call on Superman to save you - since none of those things you have faith in. So an atheist would not call on a God that he/she does not have faith in.

understand?

But isn't it interesting, Duane, that these same people never say "Oh Devil!!!"

Somehow they always call out to God at the relevant times.

what?

why would they say "oh devil"?

as far as I know atheists do not believe the devil / satan exists either

because someone does not believe in God does not mean they worship the devil!

Agreed. But if atheists/agnostics do not believe in God, why call His name in times of trouble or even as a figure of speech?

Why not say - Oh "Richard Dawkins"?

[AdamB]

Strangely though some will call out to a God they don't believe exist if they are in a life and death situation

It is logical to assume that an atheist would call God's name in a life and death situation purely as a figure of speech such as "oh lord" or "oh god mih dog dead".


Let me put it another way, as a Christian, if you were in a life and death situation, you would not call the name of Allah, Lakshmi or call on Superman to save you - since none of those things you have faith in. So an atheist would not call on a God that he/she does not have faith in.

understand?

But isn't it interesting, Duane, that these same people never say "Oh Devil!!!"

Somehow they always call out to God at the relevant times.

what?

why would they say "oh devil"?

as far as I know atheists do not believe the devil / satan exists either

because someone does not believe in God does not mean they worship the devil!

Agreed. But if atheists/agnostics do not believe in God, why call His name in times of trouble or even as a figure of speech?

Why not say - Oh "Richard Dawkins"?

There is a prophetic narration (hadith) that all of the souls of the children of Adam were extracted and ALL were made to witness "laa ilaaha ill Allaah", that "there is no (true) god except ALLAAH (God Almighty)".

So, possibly deep within our mind we all know that GOD exists and life threatening events "reminds" us somehow!!??

[megadoc1]

A true story. About 3 yrs ago, an old (catholic) school friend of mine was held up by bandits, robbed and tied up and put in the trunk of his car. The bandits lit the car (with fire eh) and fled. He was saved but sustained burns on his hands while trying to escape. (May Allah save us from such a horrible trial).

Afterwards, I asked him when he was in that situation, "Who did you turn to? On whom did you place your trust (mentally and verbally)?" I was thinking ok he would say GOD the father or the son (Jesus).

He said he called on his "ANCESTORS" to save him (his dead ancestors who are buried in their graves)!! He said it's what Catholics believe.

Megadoc, can you confirm?

nah! that not roman Catholicism but probably a mixture of another religion..but if he did say saint jude, saint megadoc or saintt duane then maybe
but you see again the need for you to know what the other religious belief are so you won't
find yourself making these kinds of mistakes...or it can very well come across a an opportunity for you to thread on another religion based on errant beliefs but this will only work against you

[AdamB]

A true story. About 3 yrs ago, an old (catholic) school friend of mine was held up by bandits, robbed and tied up and put in the trunk of his car. The bandits lit the car (with fire eh) and fled. He was saved but sustained burns on his hands while trying to escape. (May Allah save us from such a horrible trial).

Afterwards, I asked him when he was in that situation, "Who did you turn to? On whom did you place your trust (mentally and verbally)?" I was thinking ok he would say GOD the father or the son (Jesus).

He said he called on his "ANCESTORS" to save him (his dead ancestors who are buried in their graves)!! He said it's what Catholics believe.

Megadoc, can you confirm?

nah! that not roman Catholicism but probably a mixture of another religion..but if he did say saint jude, saint megadoc or saintt duane then maybe
but you see again the need for you to know what the other religious belief are so you won't
find yourself making these kinds of mistakes...or it can very well come across a an opportunity for you to thread on another religion based on errant beliefs but this will only work against you

What's the virtue of Saint Jude?

[megadoc1]

A true story. About 3 yrs ago, an old (catholic) school friend of mine was held up by bandits, robbed and tied up and put in the trunk of his car. The bandits lit the car (with fire eh) and fled. He was saved but sustained burns on his hands while trying to escape. (May Allah save us from such a horrible trial).

Afterwards, I asked him when he was in that situation, "Who did you turn to? On whom did you place your trust (mentally and verbally)?" I was thinking ok he would say GOD the father or the son (Jesus).

He said he called on his "ANCESTORS" to save him (his dead ancestors who are buried in their graves)!! He said it's what Catholics believe.

Megadoc, can you confirm?

nah! that not roman Catholicism but probably a mixture of another religion..but if he did say saint jude, saint megadoc or saintt duane then maybe
but you see again the need for you to know what the other religious belief are so you won't
find yourself making these kinds of mistakes...or it can very well come across a an opportunity for you to thread on another religion based on errant beliefs but this will only work against you

What's the virtue of Saint Jude?

some people hold the saints at a very high esteem its a traditional thing with certain groups within Christianity ..but please don't mix it with the actual belief system of Christianity
do some research on it

[MG Man]

A true story. About 3 yrs ago, an old (catholic) school friend of mine was held up by bandits, robbed and tied up and put in the trunk of his car. The bandits lit the car (with fire eh) and fled. He was saved but sustained burns on his hands while trying to escape. (May Allah save us from such a horrible trial).

Afterwards, I asked him when he was in that situation, "Who did you turn to? On whom did you place your trust (mentally and verbally)?" I was thinking ok he would say GOD the father or the son (Jesus).

He said he called on his "ANCESTORS" to save him (his dead ancestors who are buried in their graves)!! He said it's what Catholics believe.

Megadoc, can you confirm?

nah! that not roman Catholicism but probably a mixture of another religion..but if he did say saint jude, saint megadoc or saintt duane then maybe
but you see again the need for you to know what the other religious belief are so you won't
find yourself making these kinds of mistakes...or it can very well come across a an opportunity for you to thread on another religion based on errant beliefs but this will only work against you

What's the virtue of Saint Jude?

some people hold the saints at a very high esteem its a traditional thing with certain groups within Christianity ..but please don't mix it with the actual belief system of Christianity
do some research on it

he is doing exactly what he claims people do to his religion, ie judge incorrectly
the dude is one messed up sada roti