The Religion Discussion

[AdamB]

@AdamB how is the average Joe like me supposed to recognize a true scholar?

Seek knowledge, educate yourself, don't confine yourself to any particular group, as your imam or scholar what is the basis for their statements (Quran and Sunnah)? Ask them : is there difference of opinion or ruling on particular matters?

A lot of scholars, well in Trinidad, students of knowledge they state their views but are not honest to say that there are differing opinions or rulings. When these exist, there is such a thing as the srtongest opinion or ruling based on the evidence.

Are you a scholar?

No. I reverted to Islam 21yrs ago so it was a concerted choice, I was not brainwashed from childhood.

[d spike]

If I am accused of ignorance, isn't that defined as "lack of knowledge". Aren't we here to find out?

Find out what? Don't you have it all in your book already?
Lack of knowledge is unawareness, or even nescient (no knowledge). Ignorance is certainly more likely the problem, as its root word is ignore.

Ok so you have never experienced Allah in a way no one else has. What you're saying is the only thing he left you with to believe that he is real is a book. So what makes Islam the truth over Christianity then. They got a book that claims to be the truth also. In fact, they claim supernatural interventions, which is a better argument than someone who just decides to choose a book and believe on it without any form of proof as you've basically described above there.

Well, they do have an interesting argument...
As their religion was formed about 600 years after Christianity, the are in the remarkable position to say that their writings claim to be superior to the Bible. Their scripture claim that previous scripture has been tampered with (hence the need for this "latest edition") and their proof of such tampering is where the Christian scriptures differ with Koranic scripture!

This attitude reminds me of the Caliph's response to the General who had led the Muslim horde that seized Egypt, with regard to the question of what to do with all the books that were within the Library of Alexandria: "If they agree with the Koran, they are superfluous; if they disagree with the Koran, they are blasphemous. Burn it."

sMASH had asked me moons ago about this whole "tampered" scripture thing. When one understands how the scriptures were put together in the first place, then one has to admit that either one accepts it or not - the only question of "tampering" existed in the collation, not the transmission.

can u trace the steps from which they left jesus' mouth to the document u have today? can u account for the writers who penned the words?
even some of the books, as i understand, are attributed to people who did not write them but were the famous person of the time.

those can be additions, or modifications.

Smash, if memory serves me right, most of what you have said agrees with basic Christian doctrine. While my opinion might not seem to meet the approval of some, I certainly do agree with many of your points.
I can appreciate the fervour of the Muslims, where ensuring that their scriptures remain exactly the way they were written, thus maintaining perfect originality of their writings through time.
The bible, however, is quite different in the way it was compiled, the multiplicity of authors of the individual parts (their idiom, personality, and even religious beliefs varied) and the time-span that it covers.
These writings were compiled almost 400 years after Christ's crucifixion, and some of it is made up of even smaller compilations.
The writings that were finally considered for membership in the Christian book club (aka the bible) at that time fell into three categories: protocanonical books (those everybody accepted as scripture), deutercanonical books (those that some accepted and some didn't), and apocrypha (books that weren't seen as scripture - the word is Greek for "writings").

When Luther came along and began his rant, he decided that it was a lot easier to solve the mess the Western Church was in by rejecting the parts of scripture that referred to the issues he had problems with. He ended up throwing some out onto the garbage heap of "not truly inspired" (seven deutercanonical books from the Old Testament and Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelations from the New Testament) but later Protestants dragged them back inside the house - only the New Testament ones, though.

All these books are generally accepted as scripture by Christians, because of what they speak about (the belief that they contain revealed truth) not because of who wrote them. ("Accepted as containing revealed truth" and "accepted as being literal truth" are two totally different things, but that is another story.)

While in our time, someone producing work under the name of another would be seen as fraud, this was not always so. I always maintain that to properly understand scripture, one must study the culture and idiom of the author first.

[d spike]

adamB, seeing that you are back, can you respond now?

Faith is but a light on the roadway of our journey.
What we choose to do while we travel, is dependent on how well we can see, and that is dependent on the light... but, the choice of right or wrong action is still ours to make, AND NOT that of the light. And though we can claim that our decisions are based on that very light, that is but justification, not reason.
FOR THE LIGHT JUST ILLUMINATES - what we perceive to see in the distance has more to do with our opinion and imagination, than light.

Classical Christian hogwash

How is this hogwash?
Let's start at the beginning:
Faith is but a light on the roadway of our journey.
Faith is what you believe to be true. It is this faith of ours that we rely on to form a value system, which in turn helps us to make judgements we consider to be right. The "roadway" is a metaphor for life.

What we choose to do while we travel, is dependent on how well we can see, and that is dependent on the light
The choices we make is based on our belief of right and wrong, which in turn (as stated before) is based on our faith.

...but, the choice of right or wrong action is still ours to make, AND NOT that of the light. And though we can claim that our decisions are based on that very light, that is but justification, not reason.
We as individuals can decide on an action, and this decision can be based on our value system, but we have the ability to rationalize our choice of action and make it appear right. An example: I believe my religion is the true one, so I decide to tell everyone about it. Or I can slaughter those who refuse to believe in it.

FOR THE LIGHT JUST ILLUMINATES - what we perceive to see in the distance has more to do with our opinion and imagination, than light.
To conclude, while our faith helps us in our forming of opinions and choices, our outlook or attitude also has a lot to do with it, and can help in making our choices seem to reflect our faith - while it actually is formed out of our selfishness or greed, and is then twisted to appear based on faith.


Now then, AdamB, which part of this is hogwash?
Which part of this conflicts with Jesus' teachings?

And use your own words...

[AdamB]

You last post still has me in awe of how religion can have a man ignorant. Did you read what you just said. You're saying you don't need any proof...NONE AT ALL, you just know that Islam is the truth. Not even a feeling in the gut as some would claim? You just know that this book is true and you chose to defend it with your life. Smh....

Bizz,
I was referring specifically to having a relationship with GOD to the extent to say "I have had many personal experience with God over my life time and have developed a relationship with him I recognise his voice". No, I haven't had that but yes, I have the gut feeling to the extent that I know that Allah exists, that HE is real, that Paradise and Hellfire exists now, etc.

You claim to not have had this "personal" encounter despite your trying so hard for so many years.

[d spike]

Dspike,
Unfortunately I don't have the time to spend to discuss with you since you don't have a basis of evidence for what you follow. You have expressed disbelief in your own book and other fundamental issues, you follow what YOU WANT TO FOLLOW ACCORDING TO YOUR OPINION.

When you reveal what you believe and give evidence to back up, then maybe we can talk.

Because you can't recognize my "basis of evidence" (as you call it) does not mean it isn't there. When last did you see Neptune in the sky?

I refuse to accept scripture LITERALLY - that does not mean I don't accept it. Your concept of believing in scripture differs to mine. I accept it as containing truths regarding who we are - not as a history or science textbook.
As you have made it clear that you know very little about Christianity, and even less about my beliefs, you ARE IN NO POSITION to say what is fundamental to a Christian, and certainly whether I accept them or not. My disagreeing with folks here is based on a disagreement of doctrine, not a lack of belief.

This isn't the first time i have had to deal with this sort of immaturity:

I have not only put my opinions on the table but have also show the scriptures that back my belief giving others a chance to show me where I am in error of interpreting these verses

That was your choice. No one said this was supposed to be a "I show you mine, you show me yours" contest... This was a discussion. Carry on.

You claim to teach Christianity well show me how your belief is formed so that I can understand

It does not work that way, I'm afraid. What I do, is done in a far more formal, structured environment, with those who are able to grasp previously accepted concepts. I don't run a carny show...

I do not care for your opinion, if you do not care to show me how you have come to such a conclusion/opinion

This was (up until this point) an open and free discussion. Whether you care for my opinion, or not, doesn't change it's value - just your opinion of it. Facts can be queried. My opinion is precisely that - my opinion. I certainly don't have to attempt to defend it in the face of those who clearly are seeking targets to spit at.

You seem to think that you are not guilty of the because we/i say so mentality that you accuse others of having

I have never said such a thing - in fact, quite the opposite. I have clearly stated that all persons will have their 'bias', due to personality, culture, upbringing, experiences, and so forth. Our personal choices are truly our own when we make them based on our exposure, experiences and learning. "To thine own self be true". The sign of maturity is in using one's own bias to judge what is right for oneself, but not letting it cloud one's judgment of others.
"You seem to think...", eh? You clearly have passed judgment on me already without truly considering what I have said here (the only facts before you) and this is a clear case of prejudiced thinking. In light of this, you really think I will feel comfortable discussing my religion with you?

So what makes you right about Christianity and me wrong

I could very well ask you that question... but I won't. I have my beliefs, and they are based on my life's experiences and those that have gone before me, as well as my studies... I trust you, Smash, and all the others can say the same. You follow the path of your own choosing... not the one you have been badgered by someone else into following.

So if I am not asking to much voice your opinion on the death and resurrection of Christ and the bases for such and opinion as found in the scripture, that you say we misread

Rereading my responses above will clearly answer this. I believe I am not here to teach - that is for somewhere else. I am merely acting as a guide. All I will suggest is that you carefully review your tenets, and more importantly, the actions their influence encourages you to perform. I will not be as crass as some to demand you explain why you think what you think. Unlike such characters, I respect the choice of belief of others - until they start disrespecting such a choice. I hope to ask the same of others is not asking too much.

unless there is something to hide?

I have nothing to hide. My students and those who know me well (ask MG) will tell you that, among friends, speaking of such topics is a favourite activity of mine. If you cannot appreciate privacy, I can't explain it. I am happy with my body, but I am not going to walk around naked in public! I see no reason to expose my private thoughts for public ridicule... and you are out of place to demand that I do. And you have made it very clear in this post (and others) that my opinion is not regarded very highly by your good self... so why all this needling? It's not like my answers will mean much to you...

It is very clear that some here only respect the views of those who share similar views. Dissimilar views can be derided and scorned. While I enjoy the rollicking banter of Trinituner, I see no reason to subject myself to unnecessary hardship at the hands of a clearly antagonistic few.

[d spike]

Here is something else I said about Faith. It would be interesting to find out if any of this is also "Classical Christian hogwash"...

The problem with faith is understanding it. Like everything else we have, it can grow, or diminish. Though faith seems to grow with application (will explain this) it isn't a muscle that grows DUE to flexing - a mistaken belief held by many, not just fundamentalists. Faith's seeming growth through application actually takes place due to consideration/reflection of past actions and consequences (the use of critical and analytical thinking)... NOT to the application itself - hence its direct link to human logic and intelligence.

Here is where fundamentalists part ways with reality. Faith grows with doubt. Only when you question, when you ask 'why', can your faith truly develop as the answer becomes apparent. The answer may take years, decades... but that is part of your journey. Sometimes, a negative answer seems to diminish or eradicate what faith is there, but that is not so. To search is to find... to find is to continue looking. That is our nature.
Fundamentalists refute this. Faith to them is the opposite of doubt - to doubt is to fail, to fall... To be totally adamant allows presumption to rear its head in your life, accompanied by blindedness.
Faith is not the roadway... it's the light you use to see your way more clearly.

[AdamB]

Dspike,
Unfortunately I don't have the time to spend to discuss with you since you don't have a basis of evidence for what you follow. You have expressed disbelief in your own book and other fundamental issues, you follow what YOU WANT TO FOLLOW ACCORDING TO YOUR OPINION.

When you reveal what you believe and give evidence to back up, then maybe we can talk.

Because you can't recognize my "basis of evidence" (as you call it) does not mean it isn't there. When last did you see Neptune in the sky?

I refuse to accept scripture LITERALLY - that does not mean I don't accept it. Your concept of believing in scripture differs to mine. I accept it as containing truths regarding who we are - not as a history or science textbook.
As you have made it clear that you know very little about Christianity, and even less about my beliefs, you ARE IN NO POSITION to say what is fundamental to a Christian, and certainly whether I accept them or not. My disagreeing with folks here is based on a disagreement of doctrine, not a lack of belief.

This isn't the first time i have had to deal with this sort of immaturity:

1) Asking for proof is immaturity?

2) You refuse to accept scripture literally? How else do you accept it? If a million persons were to do the same, would we end up with a million sects of Christianity?

The scripture says one thing, you say it means another. How do you know what Jesus said means or whoever wrote it in the literal words they used, how do you know WHAT THEY MEANT?
If you did this, then you can't prove that what you are saying is right?

[AdamB]

adamB, seeing that you are back, can you respond now?

Faith is but a light on the roadway of our journey.
What we choose to do while we travel, is dependent on how well we can see, and that is dependent on the light... but, the choice of right or wrong action is still ours to make, AND NOT that of the light. And though we can claim that our decisions are based on that very light, that is but justification, not reason.
FOR THE LIGHT JUST ILLUMINATES - what we perceive to see in the distance has more to do with our opinion and imagination, than light.

Classical Christian hogwash

How is this hogwash?
Let's start at the beginning:
Faith is but a light on the roadway of our journey.
Faith is what you believe to be true. It is this faith of ours that we rely on to form a value system, which in turn helps us to make judgements we consider to be right. The "roadway" is a metaphor for life.

What we choose to do while we travel, is dependent on how well we can see, and that is dependent on the light
The choices we make is based on our belief of right and wrong, which in turn (as stated before) is based on our faith.

...but, the choice of right or wrong action is still ours to make, AND NOT that of the light. And though we can claim that our decisions are based on that very light, that is but justification, not reason.
We as individuals can decide on an action, and this decision can be based on our value system, but we have the ability to rationalize our choice of action and make it appear right. An example: I believe my religion is the true one, so I decide to tell everyone about it. Or I can slaughter those who refuse to believe in it.

FOR THE LIGHT JUST ILLUMINATES - what we perceive to see in the distance has more to do with our opinion and imagination, than light.
To conclude, while our faith helps us in our forming of opinions and choices, our outlook or attitude also has a lot to do with it, and can help in making our choices seem to reflect our faith - while it actually is formed out of our selfishness or greed, and is then twisted to appear based on faith.


Now then, AdamB, which part of this is hogwash?
Which part of this conflicts with Jesus' teachings?

And use your own words...

Pal,
I don't have the time to waste on poetry and philosophy. The next thing you will tell me is that Jesus is the light, he is the faith, etc.

This is useless unless you can show where in the bible it came from or if it came from a prophet of God with an authentic chain of narration.

Or is it that christians like parables in lieu of plain talk? Gives one a feeling of dominance or superiority over others if they can't understand or see what is written between the lines?

[AdamB]

Here is something else I said about Faith. It would be interesting to find out if any of this is also "Classical Christian hogwash"...

The problem with faith is understanding it. Like everything else we have, it can grow, or diminish. Though faith seems to grow with application (will explain this) it isn't a muscle that grows DUE to flexing - a mistaken belief held by many, not just fundamentalists. Faith's seeming growth through application actually takes place due to consideration/reflection of past actions and consequences (the use of critical and analytical thinking)... NOT to the application itself - hence its direct link to human logic and intelligence.

Here is where fundamentalists part ways with reality. Faith grows with doubt. Only when you question, when you ask 'why', can your faith truly develop as the answer becomes apparent. The answer may take years, decades... but that is part of your journey. Sometimes, a negative answer seems to diminish or eradicate what faith is there, but that is not so. To search is to find... to find is to continue looking. That is our nature.
Fundamentalists refute this. Faith to them is the opposite of doubt - to doubt is to fail, to fall... To be totally adamant allows presumption to rear its head in your life, accompanied by blindedness.
Faith is not the roadway... it's the light you use to see your way more clearly.

Some tend to leave off what is or will be of no benefit to our hereafter. Does it matter what increases faith? If it is increased, then thank GOD!

Are you saying that faith does not increase with good deeds or with application aka obedience to GOD? Then are you advocating for not doing good deeds and the acts pleasing to GOD?

What's your point? I am not a poet or literature buff, I like to keep it simple, obey and don't disobey.

[AdamB]

don't confine yourself to any particular group

How come you're not applying this principle to religion on the whole?

Because I have seen or see that other religions worship the Creation of God and not GOD HIMSELF!

Simply put if you hold Jesus to be anything more than a man / prophet, elevating him to status of GOD or Son of GOD, and IN REALITY HE IS NOT, then you have ascribed a partner to GOD. Commandment #1 broken. Do you understand / agree with this statement? Jesus said, "My father is greater than I", "Why call me good, Only the father is Good". Something to that effect, I did not search to copy/paste.

Please answer my question so we can proceed / continue the discussion.

[AdamB]

Was the wine much better than the bread?
Didn't you have a "personal relationship" with GOD after consuming the body and blood?

What I am asking is: are you a rum cork? And don't catholics have this "personal" thing with their god like other christian sects? If you didn't, was something wrong with you?

I see ignorance but hope it is sarcasm.
Trying to find out what has you the way you are. Somehow in Trini, saying "ignorant" has a different meaning or additional connotation of being "unreasonable or violent".

World English Dictionary
ignorance (ˈɪɡnərəns)
— n
lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant

You do understand that it is purely symbolic and it is grape juice that is served. In fact most communion in Catholic Churches often only have bread in the form of a small disc like wafer.

Don't you feel a personal connection to Allah when you make dua asking him for forgiveness and favors? It is different from salaah and much more personal, not so?

Yes it is, but the core is remembrance of Allah, beseeching HIM knowing that HE is seeing and hearing us, knowing that HE can and has power to do all things including answering our every request. I don't ask for money or women or attention/status. I ask for the intangible like guidance, forgiveness, mercy, being a better father and husband, to be saved from the punishment of the grave and that of the Hellfire, knowledge, to distinguish truth from falsehood, health, etc.

Again, we don't have a "personal connection" like christians and others claim to feel HIM or hear HIS voice or the like (to be overwhelmed, to have HIM control me without my choosing to).

[MG Man]

@AdamB how is the average Joe like me supposed to recognize a true scholar?

Seek knowledge, educate yourself, don't confine yourself to any particular group, as your imam or scholar what is the basis for their statements (Quran and Sunnah)? Ask them : is there difference of opinion or ruling on particular matters?

A lot of scholars, well in Trinidad, students of knowledge they state their views but are not honest to say that there are differing opinions or rulings. When these exist, there is such a thing as the srtongest opinion or ruling based on the evidence.

different people have different capacities for learning and understanding.....some grasp ideas quickly, some are slow learners, some are dyslexic, some hve low IQs........ie people are different.......having said that, your advice is impossible for EVERYONE to follow and come to the same (right) conclusions....this mental diversity among humans makes it impossible for any single book to teach everyone.........one the one hand, you say read the book with an open mind etc and it will be revealed, yet you recognize there are points that raise doubt, at which point, you need to seek out experts for clarification.....there are too many holes for any one book to be the work of a god............it's all works of man, designed for social control and maintenance of a particular status quo

[dregz]

@AdamB how is the average Joe like me supposed to recognize a true scholar?

Seek knowledge, educate yourself, don't confine yourself to any particular group, as your imam or scholar what is the basis for their statements (Quran and Sunnah)? Ask them : is there difference of opinion or ruling on particular matters?

A lot of scholars, well in Trinidad, students of knowledge they state their views but are not honest to say that there are differing opinions or rulings. When these exist, there is such a thing as the srtongest opinion or ruling based on the evidence.

Are you a scholar?

No. I reverted to Islam 21yrs ago so it was a concerted choice, I was not brainwashed from childhood.

1) Are you suggesting that Muslims born into Islam are brainwashed from childhood?

Also, the scholars will know the scholars. Think about it.

2) Since you are not a scholar, it therefore suggest, from your earlier discourse, that you cannot recognize a scholar, am I right to say this? I am only going off what you told me so far.

3) Are there any stipulated requirements (passing an examination of some sort) that one must have in order to prove that he/she is a scholar and if so where and how does one go about acquiring these requirements?

[megadoc1]

adam b whats up with you and these five posts in a row?

[sMASH]

this show examines our understanding of things around us and in us. came across this episode and it is food for thought.

[AdamB]

You last post still has me in awe of how religion can have a man ignorant. Did you read what you just said. You're saying you don't need any proof...NONE AT ALL, you just know that Islam is the truth. Not even a feeling in the gut as some would claim? You just know that this book is true and you chose to defend it with your life. Smh....

Bizzare,
Please explain what you really mean by ignorant above.

I think you're being hypocritical in that you are chastizing me for holding on to the Qur'aan but you still do the same with the Bible expecting that GOD will "communicate" with you but to no avail as yet. Doesn't that tell you something for someone who is not supposed to be "ignorant"?

I said that I DON'T NEED PROOF in terms of the "personal communication" with GOD.

The Qur'aan itself establishes the proof by rehearsing the signs of GOD. As I said, you should give it a try. See what it contains. Maybe it will establish that connection but not in the way that you seek. That's how GOD works.

The life of the prophet reinforces / explains the Qur'aan. There are events that proved the truthfulness of the message of the Qur'aan.

[AdamB]

adam b whats up with you and these five posts in a row?

It's what I use to reel you in! LOL

[AdamB]

You last post still has me in awe of how religion can have a man ignorant. Did you read what you just said. You're saying you don't need any proof...NONE AT ALL, you just know that Islam is the truth. Not even a feeling in the gut as some would claim? You just know that this book is true and you chose to defend it with your life. Smh....

Bizzare,
Please explain what you really mean by ignorant above.

I think you're being hypocritical in that you are chastizing me for holding on to the Qur'aan but you still do the same with the Bible expecting that GOD will "communicate" with you but to no avail as yet. Doesn't that tell you something for someone who is not supposed to be "ignorant"?

I said that I DON'T NEED PROOF in terms of the "personal communication" with GOD.

The Qur'aan itself establishes the proof by rehearsing the signs of GOD. As I said, you should give it a try. See what it contains. Maybe it will establish that connection but not in the way that you seek. That's how GOD works.

The life of the prophet reinforces / explains the Qur'aan. There are events that proved the truthfulness of the message of the Qur'aan.

Maybe you will be shocked by the paradigm shift as the PROOF you seek is not necessary, in fact does not exist.

Remember Moses wanted to "see" GOD. Did he? Why not? Doesn't the bible say that no man ever will see GOD and live, or something like that?

Exodus 33:20
There shall no man see me, and live.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time.

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father.

Colossians 1:15
The invisible God

1 Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.

1 Timothy 6:16
Whom no man hath seen nor can see.

1 John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time.

Since you are more of an expert in the Bible, then did any man feel GOD or be possessed by HIM (in the Bible)? Can you quote some of these verses?

[RBphoto]

So.... has anyone here actually asked anyone else to convert to their religion (IRL, not in this POS forum)? I find it demeaning to tell someone that they should convert to your religion. it tells them that you are completely disrespectful of their belief (or lack thereof), and you do not respect them as a person, as religion goes to the core of a person's Pshyche. Worse yet, I am an agnostic, but I chose to follow Hinduism because it is the only religion which allows you to have an agnostic view of the world and consider god as an abstract impersonal being. I like to read the Hindu religious texts to find moral guidance and life lseeons from the stories. I do not want to encourage anyone to partake of my religion, but those of the Aramic sects (Jews, christians, Muslim) would denounce me as a devil/ Idol worshiper. I find it demeaning that persons without a quater of my education would denounce me as ignorant for my views on spirituality, which is not only personal, but something that they cannot prove to me (you cannot prove your thoughts are pure, even if all of your life deeds are).

Discussing belief is silly, whether or not those are written down in a book and whether or not that book is subscribed to by millions of other people. No, there is no proof that any book is a supernatural gateway to godhead or contains information to such an end. All the books that have been quoted here contain absurdities (Mohammed's sexual deviance, Jesus Christ as son of god, super flying demon slaying monkeys) Belief is your own personal delusion.

The only thing left to discuss is your personal relationship with god. Here is the tricky part... most religions do not allow you to have a "personal" relationship with god. Islam tells you exactly which prayer you have to say and when and for whom each hour of the day... you even have to say something god related based on every action you do for the day. Christianity also defindes your relationship in clear terms. hinduism has a dazzling array of fire sacrifices which must be performed and a callender on what has to be done on each day of the year.

So after all the beat dong, we all discussing what piece of paper defines our insanity. The more you wanna beat up about it.. clearly the more insane you are.

Cheers...CD

[Kasey]

^^very insightful!!!!!!!!!!!

[MG Man]

god is a loony egomaniac
seriously wtf
he created us with the sole purpose of worshiping him, setting down VERY specific rules on how to do it........we supposed to believe he loves us soooooo much, but will cast us into eternal damnation if we misbehave....parents can forgive murderers of their children but our loving god will cast us into hell for disrespecting him via the free will he supposedly granted us?
please

[AdamB]

So.... has anyone here actually asked anyone else to convert to their religion
I asked the man to read the book called the Qur'aan perchance he may find what he is seeking because he doesn't seem to be finding it in the Bible. He may take up the offer as well as he may not. That's not your cup of tea, so what!!
(IRL, not in this POS forum)? I find it demeaning to tell someone that they should convert to your religion. it tells them that you are completely disrespectful of their belief (or lack thereof), and you do not respect them as a person, as religion goes to the core of a person's Pshyche.
I'm sorry she made you do that against your will (or did you have a choice?) Why didn't you tell that to the imam?
Worse yet, I am an agnostic, but I chose to follow Hinduism because it is the only religion which allows you to have an agnostic view of the world and consider god as an abstract impersonal being. I like to read the Hindu religious texts to find moral guidance and life lseeons from the stories. I do not want to encourage anyone to partake of my religion, but those of the Aramic sects (Jews, christians, Muslim) would denounce me as a devil/ Idol worshiper. I find it demeaning that persons without a quater of my education would denounce me as ignorant for my views on spirituality, which is not only personal, but something that they cannot prove to me (you cannot prove your thoughts are pure, even if all of your life deeds are).
Who has a quarter of your education? What is your education level? How do you measure to come up with a quarter? Does it really matter (though I agree with you to some extent)?
Discussing belief is silly, whether or not those are written down in a book and whether or not that book is subscribed to by millions of other people. No, there is no proof that any book is a supernatural gateway to godhead or contains information to such an end. All the books that have been quoted here contain absurdities (Mohammed's sexual deviance, Jesus Christ as son of god, super flying demon slaying monkeys) Belief is your own personal delusion.
You choose to be personally deluded, so keep it to yourself!!
The only thing left to discuss is your personal relationship with god. Here is the tricky part... most religions do not allow you to have a "personal" relationship with god. Islam tells you exactly which prayer you have to say and when and for whom each hour of the day... you even have to say something god related based on every action you do for the day.
That's not true, there are supplications that the prophet made but anyone can raise their hands up to their LORD and ask HIM FOR ANYTHING!!
Christianity also defindes your relationship in clear terms. hinduism has a dazzling array of fire sacrifices which must be performed and a callender on what has to be done on each day of the year.

So after all the beat dong, we all discussing what piece of paper defines our insanity. The more you wanna beat up about it.. clearly the more insane you are.
Expression of opinion once again!!
Cheers...CD

Cheers!!

[AdamB]

Again, those who deny express their denial!!

Where are the believers expressing their belief??

[stickman]

I'd just like to share this link with you guys:

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

[brams112]

Still can't figure why people are being upset with each other,to each his own.

[Kasey]

Still can't figure why people are being upset with each other,to each his own.

not people. only AdamB.

[d spike]

adamB, seeing that you are back, can you respond now?

Faith is but a light on the roadway of our journey.
What we choose to do while we travel, is dependent on how well we can see, and that is dependent on the light... but, the choice of right or wrong action is still ours to make, AND NOT that of the light. And though we can claim that our decisions are based on that very light, that is but justification, not reason.
FOR THE LIGHT JUST ILLUMINATES - what we perceive to see in the distance has more to do with our opinion and imagination, than light.

Classical Christian hogwash

How is this hogwash?
Let's start at the beginning:
Faith is but a light on the roadway of our journey.
Faith is what you believe to be true. It is this faith of ours that we rely on to form a value system, which in turn helps us to make judgements we consider to be right. The "roadway" is a metaphor for life.

What we choose to do while we travel, is dependent on how well we can see, and that is dependent on the light
The choices we make is based on our belief of right and wrong, which in turn (as stated before) is based on our faith.

...but, the choice of right or wrong action is still ours to make, AND NOT that of the light. And though we can claim that our decisions are based on that very light, that is but justification, not reason.
We as individuals can decide on an action, and this decision can be based on our value system, but we have the ability to rationalize our choice of action and make it appear right. An example: I believe my religion is the true one, so I decide to tell everyone about it. Or I can slaughter those who refuse to believe in it.

FOR THE LIGHT JUST ILLUMINATES - what we perceive to see in the distance has more to do with our opinion and imagination, than light.
To conclude, while our faith helps us in our forming of opinions and choices, our outlook or attitude also has a lot to do with it, and can help in making our choices seem to reflect our faith - while it actually is formed out of our selfishness or greed, and is then twisted to appear based on faith.


Now then, AdamB, which part of this is hogwash?
Which part of this conflicts with Jesus' teachings?

And use your own words...

Pal,
I don't have the time to waste on poetry and philosophy.

You claimed before to have studied Arabic rhetoric (if I recall rightly) yet you cannot recognize simply stated matters in English? This isn't poetry or philosophy, this is theology. You need to work on your education, my lad. In order for a reader to appreciate what I write, no matter their background, I deliberately write as simply as possible. If you can mistake simply-written theological material for poetry... I don't know if to take that as a compliment for my prose, or just be bewildered at your vacuity.

The next thing you will tell me is that Jesus is the light, he is the faith, etc.

This just goes to show that you don't read my posts. As this is a public forum, I deliberately stay away from divisive and unnecessary statements like that - I have never seen the point to make such statements. I have always held that we should focus on the beliefs we share, rather than focus on our differences - this will help us grow together, instead of apart.

This is useless unless you can show where in the bible it came from or if it came from a prophet of God with an authentic chain of narration.

Why? It is simply a statement about a concept... one just has to agree or disagree. This is called stimulating discussion, where people (wait for it) SHARE IDEAS.
So why can you not discuss concepts? Are you such a sheep that you have to know the source of the concept, in order to know whether you can agree with it or not? Are you totally incapable of original thought?

Or is it that christians like parables in lieu of plain talk? Gives one a feeling of dominance or superiority over others if they can't understand or see what is written between the lines?

This is simple theology. It is sad (but it certainly explains a lot) that you are incapable of seeing it for what it is.

[d spike]

Some tend to leave off what is or will be of no benefit to our hereafter. Does it matter what increases faith? If it is increased, then thank GOD!

It isn't so much what matters, as much as what some folk errantly believe about faith. I was attempting to clarify a concept. Such an example of an errant belief is displayed below in this post of yours.
Some people are happy in their ignorance, but there are those who try to understand exactly what a concept is about, like "religion" or "faith". It is to these folk my posts are directed. People accept concepts by understanding them as best as they can - some just are able to appreciate more detail than others.

Are you saying that faith does not increase with good deeds or with application aka obedience to GOD?

No. That is just a childish fantasy, concocted to explain in very simple terms to simple people something that might be beyond their understanding - like telling a child that horses pull the sun across the sky.
Faith can be affirmed or strengthened by experiences, but it isn't a piggy-bank God adds to in order to reward you.

Then are you advocating for not doing good deeds and the acts pleasing to GOD?

Now, where did I say that? Of course not! I specifically used the analogy of light illuminating one's path to AVOID this sort of hysterical nonsense. Perhaps it is your literacy rather than your spirituality that needs help.

What's your point? I am not a poet or literature buff, I like to keep it simple, obey and don't disobey.

It is simple. Neither is it poetry - but I will still accept your compliment on my prose-writing! .
Nothing wrong with being simple a la obey and don't disobey... but there comes a time when you might need more - especially when you choose to discuss religion on a public forum with intelligent people.

Please note that I am not decrying immature or simple-minded folk - far from it... Their lives are far more uncomplicated. It is what we do, not what we know, that we will be judged by - if you believe in some form of judgment, of course. In fact, to be aware of more, makes whatever judgment you might face even more weighty. Simple people see things in "black and white". Decisions come easily to them... until they come across one of life's quagmires of moral dilemmas. (At that point, they either become aware of the existence of the "gray areas" of life - and in choosing to deal with it, open their minds to the ability to learn more deeply about life; or they prefer to remain as they are by "backpedalling" until they reach to safe ground, then avoid that particular reality like the plague - or just live in denial.)
Where these simple folk run afoul is when they decide that everybody else must do things / accept truths their way - as any other way must be wrong.

[dregz]

@AdamB how is the average Joe like me supposed to recognize a true scholar?

Seek knowledge, educate yourself, don't confine yourself to any particular group, as your imam or scholar what is the basis for their statements (Quran and Sunnah)? Ask them : is there difference of opinion or ruling on particular matters?

A lot of scholars, well in Trinidad, students of knowledge they state their views but are not honest to say that there are differing opinions or rulings. When these exist, there is such a thing as the srtongest opinion or ruling based on the evidence.

Are you a scholar?

No. I reverted to Islam 21yrs ago so it was a concerted choice, I was not brainwashed from childhood.

1) Are you suggesting that Muslims born into Islam are brainwashed from childhood?

Also, the scholars will know the scholars. Think about it.

2) Since you are not a scholar, it therefore suggest, from your earlier discourse, that you cannot recognize a scholar, am I right to say this? I am only going off what you told me so far.

3) Are there any stipulated requirements (passing an examination of some sort) that one must have in order to prove that he/she is a scholar and if so where and how does one go about acquiring these requirements?

@AdamB Could you please answer my questions Sir.

[AdamB]

Some tend to leave off what is or will be of no benefit to our hereafter. Does it matter what increases faith? If it is increased, then thank GOD!

It isn't so much what matters, as much as what some folk errantly believe about faith. I was attempting to clarify a concept. Such an example of an errant belief is displayed below in this post of yours.
Some people are happy in their ignorance, but there are those who try to understand exactly what a concept is about, like "religion" or "faith". It is to these folk my posts are directed. People accept concepts by understanding them as best as they can - some just are able to appreciate more detail than others.

Are you saying that faith does not increase with good deeds or with application aka obedience to GOD?

No. That is just a childish fantasy, concocted to explain in very simple terms to simple people something that might be beyond their understanding - like telling a child that horses pull the sun across the sky.
Faith can be affirmed or strengthened by experiences, but it isn't a piggy-bank God adds to in order to reward you.

Dspike,
It is clear in my religion that faith increases and decreases. So as far as Islam is concerned, it is NOT an errant belief.

If you are saying the opposite, all I ask is that you provide (clear) evidence of such from valid sources (your bible). If you can't or if there is difference of opinion among christian scholars, then aren't you just choosing to follow what YOU want to follow?

Even among muslims, there are those who CHOOSE to follow ERRANT beliefs on particular matters but they are the ones who have gone astray. When you examine the evidence on those matters, you will see that they follow the "unclear" verses and "weak" hadith (narrations) over the "clear" verses and "authentic" hadith.

So that's why I say, "BRING YOUR EVIDENCE, IF YOU ARE TRUTHFUL!!"