The Religion Discussion

[d spike]

Y u say MG's messed up?

Maybe if he had said that prayer when he married his wife/bought his camel (same thing anyway, according to the book) he wouldn't be so kantish...

[d spike]

Classical Christian hogwash that the prophet Jesus never taught!! You innovate thinking that you are better than Jesus himself and the early generations that followed him who were on the right path.

You innovated and strayed far from the right path. Your "Bible" scholars CHANGED THE WORDING AND MEANING of the GOSPEL OF JESUS.

This is why I had refused to state which "religion" I follow. As I had said before the pseudo-intellectuals have no idea how to hold a debate (as logic escapes them completely) so they prefer to look for preset targets to spit at.
You say you are a Christian, they immediately start up on variance from the "original" teachings (which they have NO idea about, except what they read on the internet that is posted by insecure and permanent bachelors who look at Hollywood claptrap and comic books for guidance)...
You say you are a Hindu, and they screech on about reincarnation, the caste system and holy cows...
You say you are a Catholic, and they squeal on about eating Jesus, praying to Mary, priest pedophiles and The Head Boss Pope...
You say you are a Jew, and they wail about how you killed Christ...
You say you are a Muslim, and they drag up terrorism, jihad and stoning women...

It doesn't MATTER what religion you are, they will choose to focus on matters that were not part of the discussion...

AdamB, proof is required to PROVE something is right. Faith is believing in something THAT CANNOT BE PROVEN.
If you wish to discuss such matters with me, then you need to understand a logical argument. Quoting from Muslim scripture to prove a Muslim point of view is only logical if you are discussing the matter with another Muslim. The reference material (in order to be accepted as such) must be regarded as such by both sides.

Your argument about the Bible and Christianity being "changed" over the centuries is an old one, but a wrong one and oft-proved so. However, your source of information is quite biased, so they still fall back on the old BS. a perfect example of this is the book "The Elders of Zion". Even though scholars (including anti-Semitic ones) have shown that it was a fraudulent document, Arabs still rely on it to show the evil nature of the Jew.

Is doesn't matter whether you are Christian or Muslim, being fundamentalist is dangerous as it blinds you to that which is actually there.
A man put up a signpost showing the way. Instead of walking along the path, people cling to the signpost...

[d spike]

Classical Christian hogwash that the prophet Jesus never taught!!

Can you explain your argument here? What makes you think that Jesus never taught this?

You innovate thinking that you are better than Jesus himself and the early generations that followed him who were on the right path.

WHO SAID THEY WERE BETTER THAN JESUS???? (Apart from John Lennon... ) What makes you think that the early Christians thought differently? Have you studied their writings as well?

You innovated and strayed far from the right path. Your "Bible" scholars CHANGED THE WORDING AND MEANING of the GOSPEL OF JESUS.

Can you explain this?

[MG Man]

hey hey hey do not dare blaspheem the memory of His Holiness Sri John Lennon (acid Trip His Soul)

[pioneer]

No other religion despises, alienates and discriminates against women more than islam.

Deal with it adam.


btw do you have any dogs?

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Fellas calm it down please.
This is a discussion to learn about other's beliefs, query, put forward questions, answers and opinions.

Let us not degenerate into attacking.

You cannot claim they are intolerant when you are intolerant of them.

As adults we can have open logical and factual discussion without the hate and bigotry.

[RBphoto]

I read somewhere years ago (pre innernety days) that if a man allwos a woman to be on top during sex, that man is doomed (t'was an islamic booklet)
According to a book given to me and all students in my year at ASJA Boys college in 1993/4, there is a prayer for a married man to say before going to sleep; it basically tells the man to pray for protection from any evil hiding in the woman, that may attack him during his slumber.......no such prayer was listed for a woman...........the best was 'Prayer when taking a wife (or buying a camel)'
To this day I regret misplacing that book

This is the most insightful post in this whole thread. Ive been doing it wrong!!!

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

finally getting chance to respond to this

some religions claim to have "started science" however this is simply bad logic.

If a man came up with a scientific process happens to be a Jew does not mean that Jews as a whole came up with the scientific process nor does it mean that Jewish doctrine or teachings had anything to do with the discovery of the scientific process.

He may have also been a member of the Rotary Club - it doesnt mean Rotarians came up with the process.

Also there have always been large advancements in human history: the Egyptians, Greeks, Maya etc

why not give any claim to their religious beliefs?

But you are missing the point

how so? I only stated a fact!!!!!.. advancement in science came this far even in a time when there was more religious control or influence, how can there be a problem now? can you answer this?

what fact? It also came at a time when people where eating more processed food, is that a factor?

my point is that nothing in the religious teachings had anything to do with the development of science.

The people may have been religious but what role did religion or religious teachings play in the development of technology? None!

two points
1.show me the source along with your data and maybe I would consider to make an effort to refute.... but as for now this is just "HOT AIR"

you are the one claiming that religious people advanced science - the burden of proof is with you, not me! So you need to show what relation religion has with scientific advancement.

2. this have nothing to do with the issue I raised, in fact most think that religion was against or anti science, so religion, not having a roll in science is not the issue here but the opposition to science is what I am talking about..my point was, in the midst of all this, science came thru..so what is the problem now? seeing that things are not like it was back then when there was more religious control/influence...

ever consider that with all the scientific findings people are realising that religious teachings are no longer valid i.e. creationism, geocentric universe etc.

There was a time when people thought lighting and thunder were the work of gods like Thor and Zeus, now with science they know lightning is a massive electrostatic discharge caused by unbalanced electric charge in the atmosphere and thunder is the sound the lightning makes. No more need for Thor and Zeus and being smitten by them if offerings are not made at the temple on Olympus etc etc.

Bill Nye may have an agenda however just as you feel religion should be taught in schools, he feels children should be taught science.

correction! bill nye thinks only the IDEA of evolution should be taught in schools but not the IDEA of an intelligent creator ..note:both IDEAS cannot and have not been proven at this time..

LOL evolution is much more than an idea. An entire branch of science is based on evolution, it's called BIOLOGY. There is more empirical evidence of evolution than there is of ANY supernatural being. Faith is not needed for evolution since the theories are based on fact.

A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment."

Please do not confuse it with a hypothesis.

From what I gather, atheists don't put effort in promoting atheism the way religions promote themselves and try to convert the masses. Atheists do encourage science though.

lol...same difference!

how is it the same difference?

now you are contradicting yourself - are you saying then that to encourage science is to discourage religion?

if you say yes to that then you are also saying that to encourage religion is to discourage science?

so duane do you agree that religion is holding back science?

not unless the scientists decide to throw the scientific method out the window.

To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.

if they decide to stop that method because its findings may conflict with religious belief then yes, their staunch beliefs will hold back science. Thankfully this has not happened.

let me ask you though, what should a scientist do if they discover something that goes against religious teachings? You think they should hide it?

[pioneer]

Like yuh get some calls Duane?

[megadoc1]

finally getting chance to respond to this

some religions claim to have "started science" however this is simply bad logic.

If a man came up with a scientific process happens to be a Jew does not mean that Jews as a whole came up with the scientific process nor does it mean that Jewish doctrine or teachings had anything to do with the discovery of the scientific process.

He may have also been a member of the Rotary Club - it doesnt mean Rotarians came up with the process.

Also there have always been large advancements in human history: the Egyptians, Greeks, Maya etc

why not give any claim to their religious beliefs?

I see nothing wrong with your statement but it has nothing to do with what we were discussing

But you are missing the point

how so? I only stated a fact!!!!!.. advancement in science came this far even in a time when there was more religious control or influence, how can there be a problem now? can you answer this?

what fact? It also came at a time when people where eating more processed food, is that a factor?

my point is that nothing in the religious teachings had anything to do with the development of science.

what this have to do with what we were discussing? and again you provided no data so I would not even entertain....

The people may have been religious but what role did religion or religious teachings play in the development of technology? None!

two points
1.show me the source along with your data and maybe I would consider to make an effort to refute.... but as for now this is just "HOT AIR"

you are the one claiming that religious people advanced science - the burden of proof is with you, not me! So you need to show what relation religion has with scientific advancement.

and where did I make this claim MR Duane? can you quote me?

2. this have nothing to do with the issue I raised, in fact most think that religion was against or anti science, so religion, not having a roll in science is not the issue here but the opposition to science is what I am talking about..my point was, in the midst of all this, science came thru..so what is the problem now? seeing that things are not like it was back then when there was more religious control/influence...

ever consider that with all the scientific findings people are realising that religious teachings are no longer valid i.e. creationism, geocentric universe etc.

lol..my initial point was if science made it so far how come its being held back by religion.these were the claims made ....and why is bill nye begging people to believe in evolution? take another look at the vid!

There was a time when people thought lighting and thunder were the work of gods like Thor and Zeus, now with science they know lightning is a massive electrostatic discharge caused by unbalanced electric charge in the atmosphere and thunder is the sound the lightning makes. No more need for Thor and Zeus and being smitten by them if offerings are not made at the temple on Olympus etc etc.

ok!

Bill Nye may have an agenda however just as you feel religion should be taught in schools, he feels children should be taught science.

correction! bill nye thinks only the IDEA of evolution should be taught in schools but not the IDEA of an intelligent creator ..note:both IDEAS cannot and have not been proven at this time..

LOL evolution is much more than an idea. An entire branch of science is based on evolution, it's called BIOLOGY. There is more empirical evidence of evolution than there is of ANY supernatural being. Faith is not needed for evolution since the theories are based on fact.

you have evidence? you have fact? can you name one fact? well then you are greater than the scientists who perform these test because they don't have any...further more if they cant even provide facts for what is material how can you expect them to get any for a transcendent being?...jokes on you duane....

A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment."

true! but you must admit that evolution does not fit that description ..please tell me when was evolution repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment? and if so why is bill nye begging that we believe in it .... Georg Ohm never begged anyone to believe his theory it was proven to be true! until then it is unscientific for you to expect me to believe in evolution! prove it!

Please do not confuse it with a hypothesis.

what do you call the error of scientifically presenting something as fact or confirmed, that cannot be proven as fact?

From what I gather, atheists don't put effort in promoting atheism the way religions promote themselves and try to convert the masses. Atheists do encourage science though.

lol...same difference!

how is it the same difference?

now you are contradicting yourself -

really ? can you qoute me and prove it?

are you saying then that to encourage science is to discourage religion?how so?

dont decieve yourself or attempt to decieve me or others when you make a statement like that..this is not about science! but check out the vid again you would notice that we are being asked to abandon religion in favor of evolution !which is being currently being presented in an unscientific manner

if you say yes to that then you are also saying that to encourage religion is to discourage science?

exactly! that's why you need to form your question this way but its a sloppy premise! a lot of the earlier fathers of science were religious.but the truth here is that to encourage evolution is to discourage religion ..and you saw it in the vid yourself..lets be real nah! dont try to mask it by saying science the guy is trying to discourage religion because he claims that it holds back science ! do you agree with him?

so duane do you agree that religion is holding back science?

not unless the scientists decide to throw the scientific method out the window.

agreed! and thats what they do when they expect you to believe in evolution seeing that it cannot be proven at this time...when it is proven give me a call!

To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.

great! what are the evidence for macro evolution?

if they decide to stop that method because its findings may conflict with religious belief then yes, their staunch beliefs will hold back science. Thankfully this has not happened.

so who is holding them back now ?..this is ridiculous ah mean are you admitting that science can be mess with? so why it cannot be possible for it to be driven by the faith of unbelievers..in other words if you are saying that science can be hindered to preserve religious beliefs then it is fair to assert that science can be hindered buy the atheists to promote their world view!

let me ask you though, what should a scientist do if they discover something that goes against religious teachings? You think they should hide it?

no! but I think they should believe God! example: science told Abraham that he was to old to make children and this was a truth and proven.. but then God said you are gonna have a child ,now Abraham ended up in a position to choose between reality and what God said......this is my point of view though

[AdamB]

there were several versions of the koran and bands of people with their own versions floating around post prophet's death..........for over a century, before they all agreed on an 'official' version

What is your source for this claim?

Please see: http://www.islam101.com/quran/preservedQ.htm
and http://www.quranandscience.com/quran-is ... quran.html

The latter gives opinions of leading orientalists.

MG,
I eh hearing yuh. Check out the FACTS please from those qualified to give such, not the conspiracy theories.

[AdamB]

More facts...

http://www.imranhosein.org/articles/wom ... islam.html

The Qur’an has clearly established that men have (a measure of) authority over women, and has obliged a woman to be obedient to her husband (or guardian). In this connection Islam has gone to great lengths to reaffirm the natural order pertaining to the status, role and function of gender in society. Consider the following:

• The Qur’an refers to Allah Most High in the masculine, and never in the feminine gender. (The masculine gender in Arabic does not necessarily connote masculinity.)

• The Prophets sent by Allah to mankind to function as spiritual guides and leaders were all men. There was never a woman Prophet. But there is a perverted European effort which seeks to promote Mary to Prophethood.

• Although angels are neither male nor female the Qur’an gives them male names and denounces those who give them female names.

• When a child is born a thanksgiving feast called ‘Aqiqah’ is held. For a male child two animals must be sacrificed, but a female child requires the sacrifice of only one animal.

• The Prophet said that “the best row (in congregational prayer) for men is the first, and the worse is the last. And the best row for women is the last, and the worse is the first” (Sahih Muslim).

Yupp, that seems pretty equal to me.

Pioneer,
I went through this drama before, ISLAM ENJOINS JUSTICE, NOT EQUALITY!!

Imran Hosein is NOT a SHAYKH (they call him a maulana meaning learned), he came through Trinidad associated with ASJA, which are for the most part somewhat misguided in that they CLING to the INDIAN / PAKISTANI muslim customs bringing to Trinidad & Tobago the errors that from that sub-continent. This may partly explain the crap that was taught to MG 35yrs ago. Remember back then did not have free information and effective communication, so they followed what they had thinking it was correct.

He does not have a good command of the Arabic language, so he is not qualified to make all the noise he seems to be making. He also has (conspiracy) theories about the Jews, the state of Israel becoming the next ruling state in the world. This may be prophesied in Islam but we cannot say that it will happen in the next 50 yrs for example, as he has stated. I had attended lectures of his years ago.

His deductions from what he quotes from the Qur'aan and Sunnah are FAR FETCHED and DEVIATE from their obviously understood meaning and most importantly the meaning derived from the same quotes by the QUALIFIED SCHOLARS OF ISLAM.
May Allah guide him and those who may follow him (blindly).

You have been unjust with your quotation because the following preceded it on his site, so you are quoting out of context:

If God is a man, that’s bad news for women – because masculinity would then be divine – and hence only the male would have been created in the divine image. This explains why the feminist revolution has redefined God as being both male and female. Islam declares that Allah Most High created both the male and the female but is neither male nor female. In addition, He never appeared in the person of anyone, male or female. And so neither at point of creation, nor at any time thereafter, has the male ever defined the female in Islam. Islam is thus unique in offering to women the opportunity to pray to a God who is not a man.

Nor has Islam ever discriminated between the male and the female in an unjust way. A woman complained to the Prophet (peace be upon him) that divine revelation in the Qur’an was addressing men only. What about women? she asked. In response, revelation came down in the Qur’an that addressed both men and women in such constant repetition that the matter was conclusively settled that Allah Most High does not discriminate in matters concerning gender in any unjust way. Indeed the blessed Prophet declared that all of mankind (male and female) would stand before Allah on the Last Day “as equal in His sight as are the teeth of a comb.”
Nevertheless Islam does employ a philosophy of gender that reinforces the functional differences of the male and the female in society, and that is the focus of our essay. The Qur’an teaches analogically that as day and night are functionally different yet interdependent, so too are the male and female. The ominous warning is that if this were ever to be changed, if the ‘night’ were to attempt to become ‘day’ and the sacred order of gender were to be overturned, as in the modern feminist revolution, then the anarchy and disintegration of society that would ensue would be equivalent of cosmic mayhem. The process of unraveling of social order has already commenced. The police service knows this quite well. But so many who have eyes yet cannot see, and cannot connect ‘cause’ and ‘effect’. .
The Qur’an has clearly established that men have (a measure of) authority over women, and has obliged a woman to be obedient to her husband (or guardian). In this connection Islam has gone to great lengths to reaffirm the natural order pertaining to the status, role and function of gender in society.

[AdamB]

the mosque that my mother prays at, teaches that women in positions of power leads to disaster, adn that women should not be allowed to assume roles of power....they frown on female world leaders, for example, and cite Kamla as an example of what happens when women are allowed to rule
I read somewhere years ago (pre innernety days) that if a man allwos a woman to be on top during sex, that man is doomed (t'was an islamic booklet)
According to a book given to me and all students in my year at ASJA Boys college in 1993/4, there is a prayer for a married man to say before going to sleep; it basically tells the man to pray for protection from any evil hiding in the woman, that may attack him during his slumber.......no such prayer was listed for a woman...........the best was 'Prayer when taking a wife (or buying a camel)'
To this day I regret misplacing that book

They ask you concerning menstruation. Say: that is an Adha (a harmful thing for a husband to have a sexual intercourse with his wife while she is having her menses), therefore keep away from women during menses and go not unto them till they are purified (from menses and have taken a bath). And when they have purified themselves, then go in unto them as Allah has ordained for you (go in unto them in any manner as long as it is in their vagina). Truly, Allah loves those who turn unto Him in repentance and loves those who purify themselves (by taking a bath and cleaning and washing thoroughly their private parts, bodies, for their prayers).
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #222)

Evidence above to refute your claim that you read "somewhere" - woman being on top of man during sexual intercourse. LOL

Islam teached submission to GOD in every single act that a person does. The difference is the intention and asking GOD's help and blessings.

The authentic duas (supplications) from our prophet can be found in a book called HISNUL MUSLIM (Fortress of the Muslim/believer). It is not the only book but most popular. It is not the book we follow but the supplications from the authentic source.

If any other supplication is used, the source may not be authentic and the question should be asked "what is the source quote (quran or hadith) to back up?"
http://www.makedua.com/display_dua.php?sectionid=15

[AdamB]

Classical Christian hogwash that the prophet Jesus never taught!!

Can you explain your argument here? What makes you think that Jesus never taught this?

You innovate thinking that you are better than Jesus himself and the early generations that followed him who were on the right path.

WHO SAID THEY WERE BETTER THAN JESUS???? (Apart from John Lennon... ) What makes you think that the early Christians thought differently? Have you studied their writings as well?

You innovated and strayed far from the right path. Your "Bible" scholars CHANGED THE WORDING AND MEANING of the GOSPEL OF JESUS.

Can you explain this?

http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_boo ... Christ.pdf

Cheers!

[AdamB]

No other religion despises, alienates and discriminates against women more than islam.

Deal with it adam.


btw do you have any dogs?

WOOF!!!!

[AdamB]

Fellas calm it down please.
This is a discussion to learn about other's beliefs, query, put forward questions, answers and opinions.

Let us not degenerate into attacking.

You cannot claim they are intolerant when you are intolerant of them.

As adults we can have open logical and factual discussion without the hate and bigotry.

These Fellas here are COWARDS, afraid and insecure to reveal their beliefs (except a few who like Megadoc and the atheists).

So how can you have a proper discussion when all they want to do is take cheap shots.

ISLAM has nothing to HIDE for IT IS THE RELIGION / WAY OF LIFE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD ALMIGHTY.

DEAL WITH IT!!

[MG Man]

1993 was 35 years ago?
AdamB you really are a delusional twit

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Fellas calm it down please.
This is a discussion to learn about other's beliefs, query, put forward questions, answers and opinions.

Let us not degenerate into attacking.

You cannot claim they are intolerant when you are intolerant of them.

As adults we can have open logical and factual discussion without the hate and bigotry.

These Fellas here are COWARDS, afraid and insecure to reveal their beliefs (except a few who like Megadoc and the atheists).

So how can you have a proper discussion when all they want to do is take cheap shots.

ISLAM has nothing to HIDE for IT IS THE RELIGION / WAY OF LIFE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD ALMIGHTY.

DEAL WITH IT!!

someone does not have to give their side of the story for you to be able to give yours - so I don't see the issue you have with others not wanting to tell you their beliefs.

You claim ASJA is wrong, that is an opinion.
They have scholars that they follow and you have scholars that you follow - you have no proof that they are wrong and you are right other than faith in the scholars you follow and your personal opinion of them.

If there was absolute proof that one way was the right way then faith would not be needed and there would only be one religion.

and that is reality we all have to deal with

[d spike]

Classical Christian hogwash that the prophet Jesus never taught!!

Can you explain your argument here? What makes you think that Jesus never taught this?

You innovate thinking that you are better than Jesus himself and the early generations that followed him who were on the right path.

WHO SAID THEY WERE BETTER THAN JESUS???? (Apart from John Lennon... ) What makes you think that the early Christians thought differently? Have you studied their writings as well?

You innovated and strayed far from the right path. Your "Bible" scholars CHANGED THE WORDING AND MEANING of the GOSPEL OF JESUS.

Can you explain this?

http://d1.islamhouse.com/data/en/ih_boo ... Christ.pdf

It is most unfortunate that you seem unable to present an rebuttal in this debate. Your ability to understand English needs some help, for I never asked you to suggest reading material, but for YOU to EXPLAIN - this means you use your own words to support your point of view...


(SIGH)

...As adults we can have open logical and factual discussion without the hate and bigotry.

These Fellas here are COWARDS, afraid and insecure to reveal their beliefs...

So how can you have a proper discussion when all they want to do is take cheap shots.

Really? One example of a cheap shot is the one above, where you toss a book instead of an explanation... (I wonder if you even understand what is in that document, come to think of it...)

This is a DISCUSSION on religion - NOT AN EXPOSE. I don't have to say which temple I visit in order to take part in such a discussion. I don't have to say which school I attended in order to take part in a discussion on education.

As far as cheap shots go, this is precisely why he needs people to identify their religion, for when he cannot respond to folks by tossing literature or Koranic quotes, he belittles their religion - exactly what I meant by spitting at preset targets.
...so AdamB, and anyone else who feels the same way, for the next 3 weeks I will be Buddhist.

[AdamB]

1993 was 35 years ago?
AdamB you really are a delusional twit

MG,
You display an attitude of intolerance and impatience. (GOD ALMIGHTY is with those who are PATIENT.)

Sorry I missed that little detail, but ASJA would have had those books / teachings since they came here on the Fatel Razack, that's the point.

Also, I thought you just celebrated 50 yrs? Did you go to ASJA school when you were 31? I minused approx 15yrs from 50 that's how I came up with 35 yrs. I guess you may be 17+19=36 yrs(+or-2) ?

[AdamB]

Fellas calm it down please.
This is a discussion to learn about other's beliefs, query, put forward questions, answers and opinions.

Let us not degenerate into attacking.

You cannot claim they are intolerant when you are intolerant of them.

As adults we can have open logical and factual discussion without the hate and bigotry.

These Fellas here are COWARDS, afraid and insecure to reveal their beliefs (except a few who like Megadoc and the atheists).

So how can you have a proper discussion when all they want to do is take cheap shots.

ISLAM has nothing to HIDE for IT IS THE RELIGION / WAY OF LIFE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD ALMIGHTY.

DEAL WITH IT!!

someone does not have to give their side of the story for you to be able to give yours - so I don't see the issue you have with others not wanting to tell you their beliefs.

You claim ASJA is wrong, that is an opinion.
They have scholars that they follow and you have scholars that you follow - you have no proof that they are wrong and you are right other than faith in the scholars you follow and your personal opinion of them.

If there was absolute proof that one way was the right way then faith would not be needed and there would only be one religion.

and that is reality we all have to deal with

Duane,
You have hit the nail on the head!!

We have proof that ASJA and others are wrong but that's the nature of humans to follow their desires despite seeing the clear evidence right in front of their eyes. The same goes for ALL other deviant sects and religions of the past that have now become abrogated because of tampering with the revealed books (Dspike google it nah, just like you I dont have to give proof). That is the fact according to my religion, you will say opinion, no problem.

There is no compulsion in religion.[b] Verily, the Right Path has become distinct from the wrong path. Whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All-Hearer, All-Knower. Quran Ch2:256.[/b]
There is absolute proof in favour of the religion of ISLAM, the Qur'aan and the authentic Sunnah of Muhammad BUT most of mankind CHOOSES to not to accept.

There is supposed to be ONLY ONE RELIGION, ISLAM. That is what GOD WANTS but it is the legislative WILL OF GOD, it may happen but it may not depending on man's choices.

If we accept otherwise that GOD had revealed different religions for man to follow at the same time, then we would have to say that GOD is mad and wanted to create chaos and confusion upon the Earth. THAT IS NOT SO FOR GOD IS FAR ABOVE IMPERFECTION and having these EVIL AND LOWLY DESIRES.

[d spike]

Faith is but a light on the roadway of our journey.
What we choose to do while we travel, is dependent on how well we can see, and that is dependent on the light... but, the choice of right or wrong action is still ours to make, AND NOT that of the light. And though we can claim that our decisions are based on that very light, that is but justification, not reason.
FOR THE LIGHT JUST ILLUMINATES - what we perceive to see in the distance has more to do with our opinion and imagination, than light.

Classical Christian hogwash

How is this hogwash?
Let's start at the beginning:
Faith is but a light on the roadway of our journey.
Faith is what you believe to be true. It is this faith of ours that we rely on to form a value system, which in turn helps us to make judgements we consider to be right. The "roadway" is a metaphor for life.

What we choose to do while we travel, is dependent on how well we can see, and that is dependent on the light
The choices we make is based on our belief of right and wrong, which in turn (as stated before) is based on our faith.

...but, the choice of right or wrong action is still ours to make, AND NOT that of the light. And though we can claim that our decisions are based on that very light, that is but justification, not reason.
We as individuals can decide on an action, and this decision can be based on our value system, but we have the ability to rationalize our choice of action and make it appear right. An example: I believe my religion is the true one, so I decide to tell everyone about it. Or I can slaughter those who refuse to believe in it.

FOR THE LIGHT JUST ILLUMINATES - what we perceive to see in the distance has more to do with our opinion and imagination, than light.
To conclude, while our faith helps us in our forming of opinions and choices, our outlook or attitude also has a lot to do with it, and can help in making our choices seem to reflect our faith - while it actually is formed out of our selfishness or greed, and is then twisted to appear based on faith.


Now then, AdamB, which part of this is hogwash?
Which part of this conflicts with Jesus' teachings?

And use your own words...

[AdamB]

Dspike,
Unfortunately I don't have the time to spend to discuss with you since you don't have a basis of evidence for what you follow. You have expressed disbelief in your own book and other fundamental issues, you follow what YOU WANT TO FOLLOW ACCORDING TO YOUR OPINION.

When you reveal what you believe and give evidence to back up, then maybe we can talk.

Cheers!

[d spike]

Dspike,
Unfortunately I don't have the time to spend to discuss with you since you don't have a basis of evidence for what you follow. You have expressed disbelief in your own book and other fundamental issues, you follow what YOU WANT TO FOLLOW ACCORDING TO YOUR OPINION.

When you reveal what you believe and give evidence to back up, then maybe we can talk.

That is absolute crap, coming from a person who quite happily quotes literature to support his point of view that LUMPS ALL"CHRISTIANS" TOGETHER.

There are those among them who deny divine indwelling and
the hypostatic union, such as the Arians. Arius said that Christ
was a servant of God sent by Him, like the rest of the
messengers. In agreeing with the others on the expressions
‘the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit’ he did not explain it
according to what controversialists held about hulel and
ittihad. Similarly, the Nestorian agree with them on this
formulation, and dispute with the Jacobites and Melkites on
the belief in the hypostatic union held by the latter groups.
20

ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU CAN'T LUMP???

Now that sirs, is a COWARD.

[dregz]

AdamB what kind of muslim are you?
let me qualify my question, are you Sunni, Salafi or some other type of muslim?

[AdamB]

Dspike,
Unfortunately I don't have the time to spend to discuss with you since you don't have a basis of evidence for what you follow. You have expressed disbelief in your own book and other fundamental issues, you follow what YOU WANT TO FOLLOW ACCORDING TO YOUR OPINION.

When you reveal what you believe and give evidence to back up, then maybe we can talk.

That is absolute crap, coming from a person who quite happily quotes literature to support his point of view that LUMPS ALL"CHRISTIANS" TOGETHER.

There are those among them who deny divine indwelling and
the hypostatic union, such as the Arians. Arius said that Christ
was a servant of God sent by Him, like the rest of the
messengers. In agreeing with the others on the expressions
‘the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit’ he did not explain it
according to what controversialists held about hulel and
ittihad. Similarly, the Nestorian agree with them on this
formulation, and dispute with the Jacobites and Melkites on
the belief in the hypostatic union held by the latter groups.
20

ALL OF A SUDDEN YOU CAN'T LUMP???

Now that sirs, is a COWARD.

My apologies, sorry I just don't have the time. Just like I didn't have the time to discuss with my Jehovah Witness pardna this morning (though I gave him about 10-15mins).

[d spike]

When you reveal what you believe and give evidence to back up

What absolute crap is this???
I have revealed most of what I have believed in this thread. (Some folks just can't read.)
After all that has been said here about faith and evidence, HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF ONE'S FAITH?

[AdamB]

AdamB what kind of muslim are you?
let me qualify my question, are you Sunni, Salafi or some other type of muslim?

I don't belong or follow a particular sect or group. I follow the Qur'aan and the AUTHENTIC SUNNAH of the prophet (and his rightly guided Caliphs). I don't follow a particular madhhab (school of thought), all of the 4 imams said that if authentic evidence (hadith) came to oppose their view or ruling, then to leave off their (imam's) opinion and follow it.

[AdamB]

When you reveal what you believe and give evidence to back up

What absolute crap is this???
I have revealed most of what I have believed in this thread. (Some folks just can't read.)
After all that has been said here about faith and evidence, HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE OF ONE'S FAITH?

Are you saying that there is no evidence or basis for what you have faith in?

Sorry but we muslims don't need to be inhabited by the Holy spirit or speak in tongues or the like to have faith in what we believe.

Our basis is the REVEALED BOOK (OF GUIDANCE) FROM GOD and the EXAMPLE OF HIS PROPHET!!

We don't follow any man's desires or emotional exploits of unaware followers. No wishy-washy-shaky stuff, no-sir-ree.

[AdamB]

Gotta go and worship my LORD now.

Cheers!