The Religion Discussion

[Chimera]

Can the concept of time be applied / subjected to GOD? He created time. He said the son of Adam abuses Him by his abuse of time.

GOD has informed us that the question "Who created GOD?" Is from the Whisper of Satan.
(Muslim perspective).

God has said...god has informed us....


just curious again, where did GOD say and inform us ? in the flawed MAN-MADE koran,bible, all other holy books?

[ichiniisama99]

[quote="crossdrilled"]Ok, great, satan is a great tempter, he leads you into evil... God punishes you for listening to him... by sending you to live with him? I would think that if he went through all that troubble, there would be a reward in hell for you. quote]

Doesn't make sense does it? This is because "Hell" isn't really a place of torture. That word "hell" comes from a greek word "Gehenna" , which in Bible times was a place near Jerusalem where they would throw the bodies of repulsive criminals into a dump and keep a fire burning to get rid of the garbage and the bodies. So in other words those criminals were not deserving of a decent burial. So in those days when the word "hell" (or "gehenna") was used, persons knew that it referred to the treatment of those bodies, and that it was a figurative eternal death, not eternal torture. Some things in the bible are not literal, when Jesus spoke he used illustrations so that the people of his day could understand what he was talking about. But nowadays the eternal fire and torment concept is kept alive so people would be afraid.

The thing is though, that most religious leaders teach that if a person is good, they go to heaven, and if they're bad, hell fuh it, but in a funeral whether a man or woman or child was good or bad, do they ever say that person going to hell? i never heard it...seems fishy to me.

[AdamB]

Ok, great, satan is a great tempter, he leads you into evil... God punishes you for listening to him... by sending you to live with him? I would think that if he went through all that troubble, there would be a reward in hell for you. quote]

Doesn't make sense does it? This is because "Hell" isn't really a place of torture. That word "hell" comes from a greek word "Gehenna" , which in Bible times was a place near Jerusalem where they would throw the bodies of repulsive criminals into a dump and keep a fire burning to get rid of the garbage and the bodies. So in other words those criminals were not deserving of a decent burial. So in those days when the word "hell" (or "gehenna") was used, persons knew that it referred to the treatment of those bodies, and that it was a figurative eternal death, not eternal torture. Some things in the bible are not literal, when Jesus spoke he used illustrations so that the people of his day could understand what he was talking about. But nowadays the eternal fire and torment concept is kept alive so people would be afraid.

The thing is though, that most religious leaders teach that if a person is good, they go to heaven, and if they're bad, hell fuh it, but in a funeral whether a man or woman or child was good or bad, do they ever say that person going to hell? i never heard it...seems fishy to me.

This is one of the deviations (or unique) belief of the JW from mainstream christianity, that there is no hell, no place of punishment for criminals, polytheists, etc. That those people who we say are deserving to go to hell, will cease to exist instead. There is no justice in this for the ones affected by the bad deeds of the murderer, criminal, etc.

Ichi, can you confirm this. It would also be good to get a comment from a "mainstream" christian.

[AdamB]

[quote="ichiniisama99The thing is though, that most religious leaders teach that if a person is good, they go to heaven, and if they're bad, hell fuh it, but in a funeral whether a man or woman or child was good or bad, do they ever say that person going to hell? i never heard it...seems fishy to me.[/quote]
Well, people tend to be optimistic at funerals and don't judge or criticize the dead person. The latter's book of deeds would have been closed, so it does not benefit anyone from chastizing him.

At funerals, people should be reminded of death and their visit to the graves, just like the dead person, as a motivation to change their bad ways or just try to do more good deeds. I say visit because the life in the grave is for a limited set time until the day when each of us will be resurrected to face our Lord.

[AdamB]

Ok, great, satan is a great tempter, he leads you into evil... God punishes you for listening to him... by sending you to live with him? I would think that if he went through all that troubble, there would be a reward in hell for you. Satan must be one sick mofo to want to send your soul his way just so he can torture you. Does satan get something out of tortureing you? What is his motivation?
It's not like yuh going to live with him. Everyone in hell will be punished with varying degrees of fire. The fire of hell is 70 times the fire that we kindle. Jinns even though made of smokeless fire, will also be burned. Imagine a fire so intense that it burns fire of a lesser degree.

There is no reward in hell and it aint gonna be like a party down there! The descriptions we have of the punishment to be meted out include bodies enlarged, skins burnt and replenished and burnt over and over again. Replenished because the nerve cells get burnt so the person does not feel the pain but the point of the punishment is so that the pain will be felt over and over again.

One more thing.... I asking here really don't know.... this thing about Jinn... that means unseen spirits sent by the devil right? Never got a good explanation of those even from Imams... and I have read conflicting stuff online..... they seem reluctant to talk about them for some reason. Also, what powers these Jinn have? can they posess you and cause harm to you or are they just temptes and "whisperers" as well.

Jinns are beings created from smokeless fire, they have free will just like man. Satan (Iblis) was a jinn who was elevated in status that he used to be in the company of angels. Angels don't have free will, they do exactly as they are commanded by GOD. So there's no fallen angel drama, certainly no battle between good and evil forces in heaven as some may say.

Satan's main purpose is to lead man away from the path of GOD. He has followers from among jinn that he sends out to tempt persons. One of the most pleasing acts to him is when one of them is successful in getting a married couple to divorce.

Jinn's are able to "possess" man, they are very strong physically. They can take other forms like snakes.

There are good jinns as well who hear the Qur'aan and become muslim. There as jinns who follow other religions as well. I don't know if this is what happens (possession) when people "speak in tongues".

[AdamB]

http://abdurrahman.org/character/index-shytaan.html

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/26226/jinns

Lots of info on jinns can be found above.

[AdamB]

Can the concept of time be applied / subjected to GOD? He created time. He said the son of Adam abuses Him by his abuse of time.

GOD has informed us that the question "Who created GOD?" Is from the Whisper of Satan.
(Muslim perspective).

God has said...god has informed us....


just curious again, where did GOD say and inform us ? in the flawed MAN-MADE koran,bible, all other holy books?

This is like the whisper of the jinn... Evil from among jinn and from among man...

[maj. tom]

are you 6 years old or something?

[AdamB]

Them Jehovas wittness real nice. Always coming by your house, giving you free stuff to read and I guess a fire engine service cause all I hear is they saving you from fire.... jolly good chaps.. bravo.

lol! yuh lie they don't think that a good God will send you to hell..wait what kinda fire yuh talking about?

I used to think that the JW, due to their belief that Jesus is not GOD (they don't believe in the Trinity), was somewhat closer to the belief in Islam. But I changed that view and instead saw that it was worse. The reason being that normal christians do believe in ONE GOD in their minds so they try to make the 3 gods of the trinity into 1. However, the JW believe that Jesus is separate from GOD but still HIS SON, more than a man.

They also believe that Jesus was the first angel, chief as it were. It sounds preposterous to me, but that's just me. Evidence that people twist and turn the scriptures. It's amazing that after over 1800 yrs, they JW now come along and suddenly know all the truths that the bible holds.

[AdamB]

are you 6 years old or something?

are you 600 or something?

This is a religion discussion and I am stating what my religion believes.

What's your religion? What...have no purpose in life?
Why not give away all your money and possessions and end it all now?

[ichiniisama99]

Ok, great, satan is a great tempter, he leads you into evil... God punishes you for listening to him... by sending you to live with him? I would think that if he went through all that troubble, there would be a reward in hell for you. quote]

Doesn't make sense does it? This is because "Hell" isn't really a place of torture. That word "hell" comes from a greek word "Gehenna" , which in Bible times was a place near Jerusalem where they would throw the bodies of repulsive criminals into a dump and keep a fire burning to get rid of the garbage and the bodies. So in other words those criminals were not deserving of a decent burial. So in those days when the word "hell" (or "gehenna") was used, persons knew that it referred to the treatment of those bodies, and that it was a figurative eternal death, not eternal torture. Some things in the bible are not literal, when Jesus spoke he used illustrations so that the people of his day could understand what he was talking about. But nowadays the eternal fire and torment concept is kept alive so people would be afraid.

The thing is though, that most religious leaders teach that if a person is good, they go to heaven, and if they're bad, hell fuh it, but in a funeral whether a man or woman or child was good or bad, do they ever say that person going to hell? i never heard it...seems fishy to me.

This is one of the deviations (or unique) belief of the JW from mainstream christianity, that there is no hell, no place of punishment for criminals, polytheists, etc. That those people who we say are deserving to go to hell, will cease to exist instead. There is no justice in this for the ones affected by the bad deeds of the murderer, criminal, etc.

Ichi, can you confirm this. It would also be good to get a comment from a "mainstream" christian.

Please do not misunderstand. JW's do not believe there is no punishment for wrongdoers. In fact, the Bible actually says that God will punish evildoers in His due time. The teaching that hell is a literal place of torment however, is not a teaching of the Bible.

I do not know where you get your information from, but to get accurate information on what JW's really believe, talk to them or visit the official website.

[Dizzy28]

Them Jehovas wittness real nice. Always coming by your house, giving you free stuff to read and I guess a fire engine service cause all I hear is they saving you from fire.... jolly good chaps.. bravo.

lol! yuh lie they don't think that a good God will send you to hell..wait what kinda fire yuh talking about?

I used to think that the JW, due to their belief that Jesus is not GOD (they don't believe in the Trinity), was somewhat closer to the belief in Islam. But I changed that view and instead saw that it was worse. The reason being that normal christians do believe in ONE GOD in their minds so they try to make the 3 gods of the trinity into 1. However, the JW believe that Jesus is separate from GOD but still HIS SON, more than a man.

They also believe that Jesus was the first angel, chief as it were. It sounds preposterous to me, but that's just me. Evidence that people twist and turn the scriptures. It's amazing that after over 1800 yrs, they JW now come along and suddenly know all the truths that the bible holds.

On the flip side...........
"It's amazing that after only 1400 yrs, the Muslims now come along and suddenly theirs is the only truth."

[megadoc1]

Doesn't make sense does it? This is because "Hell" isn't really a place of torture. That word "hell" comes from a greek word "Gehenna" , which in Bible times was a place near Jerusalem where they would throw the bodies of repulsive criminals into a dump and keep a fire burning to get rid of the garbage and the bodies. So in other words those criminals were not deserving of a decent burial. So in those days when the word "hell" (or "gehenna") was used, persons knew that it referred to the treatment of those bodies, and that it was a figurative eternal death, not eternal torture.

you are wrong son, the word Gehenna in the Greek is a figurative description of a reality,that is the place of everlasting punishment

γέεννα
geenna
gheh'-en-nah
Of Hebrew origin ([H1516] and [H2011]); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; gehenna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: - hell.

Gehenna is a Greek word borrowed from the Hebrew language. In Mark 9:43-44, Jesus speaks of hell (gehenna). Hell is a Greek translation of the Hebrew “Valley of Hinnom,” a place outside Jerusalem’s walls desecrated by Molech worship and human sacrifice (2 Chronicles 28:1-3; Jeremiah 32:35). It was also a garbage dump where rubbish and refuse were burned. The smoldering fires and festering worms of the Valley of Hinnom made it a graphic and effective picture of the fate of the damned. This is the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41). Men only go to this place prepared for the devil and his angels if they reject God’s salvation and condemn themselves.

Some things in the bible are not literal, when Jesus spoke he used illustrations so that the people of his day could understand what he was talking about. But nowadays the eternal fire and torment concept is kept alive so people would be afraid.

tell me is this figurative?

Rev 20:9-15 They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them.
10 The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them.
12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.

13 Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and * Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works.
14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The thing is though, that most religious leaders teach that if a person is good, they go to heaven, and if they're bad, hell fuh it,

can you say who are the religious leaders that teach this? because its not the message of the bible, the bible teaches that one is save by faith..
even your group teaches that you must come to knowledge of God to be save and that to me is worst than the teaching of being good or bad as all are work based......

[AdamB]

Them Jehovas wittness real nice. Always coming by your house, giving you free stuff to read and I guess a fire engine service cause all I hear is they saving you from fire.... jolly good chaps.. bravo.

lol! yuh lie they don't think that a good God will send you to hell..wait what kinda fire yuh talking about?

I used to think that the JW, due to their belief that Jesus is not GOD (they don't believe in the Trinity), was somewhat closer to the belief in Islam. But I changed that view and instead saw that it was worse. The reason being that normal christians do believe in ONE GOD in their minds so they try to make the 3 gods of the trinity into 1. However, the JW believe that Jesus is separate from GOD but still HIS SON, more than a man.

They also believe that Jesus was the first angel, chief as it were. It sounds preposterous to me, but that's just me. Evidence that people twist and turn the scriptures. It's amazing that after over 1800 yrs, they JW now come along and suddenly know all the truths that the bible holds.

On the flip side...........
"It's amazing that after only 1400 yrs, the Muslims now come along and suddenly theirs is the only truth."

Its was established 1400 YEARS AGO, just 600 plus years in our era (AD). JW was established in the late 1870s (that's almost 1900 yrs AD. See the difference?

[Bizzare]

Some things in the bible are not literal, when Jesus spoke he used illustrations so that the people of his day could understand what he was talking about.\

So how exactly do you choose what is literal and what isn't?

[AdamB]

Some things in the bible are not literal, when Jesus spoke he used illustrations so that the people of his day could understand what he was talking about.\

So how exactly do you choose what is literal and what isn't?

Make the text obsolete and send down a new book with straight talk, no parables / beating around the bush.

[ichiniisama99]

Them Jehovas wittness real nice. Always coming by your house, giving you free stuff to read and I guess a fire engine service cause all I hear is they saving you from fire.... jolly good chaps.. bravo.

lol! yuh lie they don't think that a good God will send you to hell..wait what kinda fire yuh talking about?

I used to think that the JW, due to their belief that Jesus is not GOD (they don't believe in the Trinity), was somewhat closer to the belief in Islam. But I changed that view and instead saw that it was worse. The reason being that normal christians do believe in ONE GOD in their minds so they try to make the 3 gods of the trinity into 1. However, the JW believe that Jesus is separate from GOD but still HIS SON, more than a man.

They also believe that Jesus was the first angel, chief as it were. It sounds preposterous to me, but that's just me. Evidence that people twist and turn the scriptures. It's amazing that after over 1800 yrs, they JW now come along and suddenly know all the truths that the bible holds.

JW's base their teachings on the Bible.

Concerning Jesus, Colossians 1:15, 16 says according to the KJV:

"15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:"

In harmony with that, Genesis 1:26 says:

"26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

Who was God talking to?

I do not know too much about islam, but i understand from a co-worker who is a well aged muslim, that muslims only validate the old testament. Is that true?

[maj. tom]

^ isn't that a good idea? why doesn't god just send down a new text now that we have modern technology to record it accurately for all ages to come. Why doesn't he send something that this modern population will believe and understand to be credible in stride with all our current knowledge of the Universe?

And there are Universities now that could examine and verify it and accredit it.

[ichiniisama99]

Some things in the bible are not literal, when Jesus spoke he used illustrations so that the people of his day could understand what he was talking about.\

So how exactly do you choose what is literal and what isn't?

Make the text obsolete and send down a new book with straight talk, no parables / beating around the bush.

You compare them to other scriptures and analyze the subject of that scripture, and what it applies to. Scriptures before and after contribute to its meaning, the situation at the time it was written, etc., which calls for deep study.

[Bizzare]

Some things in the bible are not literal, when Jesus spoke he used illustrations so that the people of his day could understand what he was talking about.\

So how exactly do you choose what is literal and what isn't?

Make the text obsolete and send down a new book with straight talk, no parables / beating around the bush.

How did the authors of their new book decipher what is literal and what isn't.

[Dizzy28]

Them Jehovas wittness real nice. Always coming by your house, giving you free stuff to read and I guess a fire engine service cause all I hear is they saving you from fire.... jolly good chaps.. bravo.

lol! yuh lie they don't think that a good God will send you to hell..wait what kinda fire yuh talking about?

I used to think that the JW, due to their belief that Jesus is not GOD (they don't believe in the Trinity), was somewhat closer to the belief in Islam. But I changed that view and instead saw that it was worse. The reason being that normal christians do believe in ONE GOD in their minds so they try to make the 3 gods of the trinity into 1. However, the JW believe that Jesus is separate from GOD but still HIS SON, more than a man.

They also believe that Jesus was the first angel, chief as it were. It sounds preposterous to me, but that's just me. Evidence that people twist and turn the scriptures. It's amazing that after over 1800 yrs, they JW now come along and suddenly know all the truths that the bible holds.

On the flip side...........
"It's amazing that after only 1400 yrs, the Muslims now come along and suddenly theirs is the only truth."

Its was established 1400 YEARS AGO, just 600 plus years in our era (AD). JW was established in the late 1870s (that's almost 1900 yrs AD. See the difference?

My point is and I have repeatedly said I believe in one non denominational God and respect for all religions. However it would be nice for people to take off their religious goggles once in a while and observe everything.

God as a supreme planner and creator
1. Civilization has been around for at least 10,000 years but an all powerful and all knowing god gives his revelations only within the last 1400 years?? So what has happened to men before that. Were they not worthy of his knowledge then?
2. God creates man but allows: Christians - 32%, Muslims - 21%, Hindus 13%, Buddhists - 6%, Others and Atheists - remainder...not a very clever plan if he intended for everyone to follow the same belief

[Bizzare]

Some things in the bible are not literal, when Jesus spoke he used illustrations so that the people of his day could understand what he was talking about.\

So how exactly do you choose what is literal and what isn't?

Make the text obsolete and send down a new book with straight talk, no parables / beating around the bush.

You compare them to other scriptures and analyze the subject of that scripture, and what it applies to. Scriptures before and after contribute to its meaning, the situation at the time it was written, etc., which calls for deep study.

WRONG!
Interpretation should come only through the Holy Spirit according to the bible. Man is subject to mistake and after all, it is the word of God..... not man.

[ichiniisama99]

^ isn't that a good idea? why doesn't god just send down a new text now that we have modern technology to record it accurately for all ages to come. Why doesn't he send something that this modern population will believe and understand to be credible in stride with all our current knowledge of the Universe?

And there are Universities now that could examine and verify it and accredit it.

Maybe so, but if He sees a need, He will. With our current knowledge it may be possible still to understand what was written in those days, don't you think? (Not trying to intimidate, just reasoning.)

[AdamB]

Because HE already has, the HOLY QUR'AAN!!!

[ichiniisama99]

Some things in the bible are not literal, when Jesus spoke he used illustrations so that the people of his day could understand what he was talking about.\

So how exactly do you choose what is literal and what isn't?

Make the text obsolete and send down a new book with straight talk, no parables / beating around the bush.

You compare them to other scriptures and analyze the subject of that scripture, and what it applies to. Scriptures before and after contribute to its meaning, the situation at the time it was written, etc., which calls for deep study.

WRONG!
Interpretation should come only through the Holy Spirit according to the bible. Man is subject to mistake and after all, it is the word of God..... not man.

Of course! God gives holy spirit to those who ask for it. God helps those who help themselves. If he sees you making an effort to understand His word, He may grant you the understanding. So you are quite right.

[ichiniisama99]

Because HE already has, the HOLY QUR'AAN!!!

Sir, i respect your right to your belief, i never said the Bible was superior to the Qur'aan, nor did i say the Bible is the only Holy book. I was just explaining what JW's beliefs are based on, as you did not seem to know. I respectfully asked you about the Qur'aan, i haven't recieved a response as yet. My objective is not to undermine any religion, just to explain mine. If you do not like it or disagree, fine, you hold that right as well. But just as i try to answer you, i expect the same.

[Asma50]

Convey (my teachings) to the people even if it were a single sentence. (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 667) http://islamicsharing.com

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

what makes one religious text more right than the other? Faith?

[crazybalhead]

Is this an appropriate place to put the alligator jehova's witness pic?

[Bizzare]

Because HE already has, the HOLY QUR'AAN!!!

i never said the Bible was superior to the Qur'aan

You didn't have to. The minute you said you were a Jehovah Witness, that was implied. If I say I am a Christian, I'm also insinuating that my Holy Book is greater than the others. Why? Cuz every religion promotes intolerance.