The Religion Discussion

[RBphoto]

It is unfortunate how most religious zealots take offence when people point out stuff like that, when in fact claiming your religion is the one true religion is equally disrespectful to followers of other religions and atheists alike.

MGee, wanna apply for ordainment?

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/faq/

I suggest together we can be the first ministers of flaming wood ministries, where we can apply our "minstrations" to women of questinable character, so that they will know there is no higher power and they may release their inhibitions wantonly on small piggy and dhal belly men without an ounce of guilt.

[AdamB]

Is this a 'religion' or 'discuss islam' topic????
gosh man

where were you when christians were being bashed?
Things only took a downturn when your brethren started condemning others / proclaiming their way to be the one true way etc etc etc

I do not condemn other people's religion. I respect their beliefs. However I do believe my religion is the truth. So insted of being ignorant ( I am not saying you are), try listening and understanding all religions. I know people who turned to and from islam. No one can force religion upon a person. Allah guides whom He wills.

Allah says: “Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 256]

One of the fundamental truths established by the sacred texts is that no one can be compelled to accept Islam. It is the duty of Muslims to establish the proof of Islam to the people so that truth can be made clear from falsehood. After that, whoever wishes to accept Islam may do so and whoever wishes to continue upon unbelief may do so. No one should be threatened or harmed in any way if he does not wish to accept Islam.

This verse is decisive in establishing that each person has the right to make his or her own choice about embracing Islam. There is other equally decisive evidence in the Qur’an, among which are the following verses:

Allah says: “If it had been your Lord’s will, all of the people on Earth would have believed. Would you then compel the people so to have them believe?” [Sûrah Yûnus: 99]

Allah says: “So if they dispute with you, say ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me.’ And say to the People of the Scripture and to the unlearned: ‘Do you also submit yourselves?’ If they do, then they are on right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message. And in Allah’s sight are all of His servants.” [Sûrah Âl `Imrân: 20]

Allah says: “The Messenger’s duty is but to proclaim the Message.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 99]

It is important to note that these last two verses were revealed in Madinah. This is significant, since it shows that the ruling they gave was not just contingent on the Muslims being in Mecca in a state of weakness, but is valid for all time.

Then why is the penalty for apostasy in Islam is death?

The punishment for apostasy from the religion of Islam is execution. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whosoever of you turns back from his religion and dies as a disbeliever, then his deeds will be lost in this life and in the Hereafter, and they will be the dwellers of the Fire. They will abide therein forever”

[al-Baqarah 2:217]

And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever changes his religion, execute him.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari in his Saheeh. What this hadeeth means is that whoever leaves Islam and changes to another religion and persists in that and does not repent, is to be executed. It was also proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is not permissible to shed the blood of a person who bears witness that there is no god but Allaah and that I am the Messenger of Allaah except in three cases: a life for a life, a previously-married person who commits adultery, and one who leaves Islam and forsakes the jamaa’ah.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim.

This harsh punishment is for a number of reasons:

1 – This punishment is a deterrent to anyone who wants to enter Islam just to follow the crowd or for hypocritical purposes. This will motivate him to examine the matter thoroughly and not to proceed unless he understands the consequences of that in this world and in the Hereafter. The one who announces his Islam has agreed to adhere to all the rulings of Islam of his own free will and consent, one of which rulings is that he is to be executed if he apostatizes from the faith.

2 – The one who announces his Islam has joined the jamaa’ah (main body) of the Muslims, and whoever joins the main body of the Muslims is required to be completely loyal and to support it and protect it against anything that may lead to fitnah or destroy it or cause division. Apostasy from Islam means forsaking the jamaa’ah and its divine order, and has a harmful effect on it. Execution is the greatest deterrent that will prevent people from committing such a crime.

3 – Those Muslims who are weak in faith and others who are against Islam may think that the apostate has only left Islam because of what he has found out about its real nature, because if it were the truth then he would never have turned away from it. So they learn from him all the doubts, lies and fabrications which are aimed at extinguishing the light of Islam and putting people off from it. In this case executing the apostate is obligatory, in order to protect the true religion from the defamation of the liars and to protect the faith of its adherents and remove obstacles from the path of those who are entering the faith.

4 – We also say that the death penalty exists in the modern laws of man to protect the system from disorder in some situation and to protect society against certain crimes which may cause its disintegration, such as drugs etc. If execution can serve as a deterrent to protect man-made systems, then it is more appropriate that the true religion of Allaah, which Falsehood cannot come to it from before it or behind it [cf. Fussilat 41:42], and which is all goodness, happiness and tranquility in this world and in the Hereafter should punish those who commit acts of aggression against it and seek to extinguish its light and defame its image, and who fabricate lies against it to justify their apostasy and deviation.

Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 21/234-231.

[stickman]

Doesn't that contradict what you said earlier?

I have some friends who are ex-muslims. Should they be executed and if so, who is responsible for executing them?

Don't give me no BS about not living in an Islamic state. Lets hear your reasons.

[AdamB]

Doesn't that contradict what you said earlier?

I have some friends who are ex-muslims. Should they be executed and if so, who is responsible for executing them?

Don't give me no BS about not living in an Islamic state. Lets hear your reasons.

Ask them why they accepted Islam (if they were not born in a muslim family), if they sought knowledge in the religion and why they apostated.

Also, tell them they are free to go to an Islamic country, accept Islam again and then apostate again....also, you are free to join them.

[maj. tom]

Oh the fairness and justice for all...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19053442

[AdamB]

Oh the fairness and justice for all...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-19053442

That was punishment that was incorrectly harsh, meaning that it was supposed to be 100 lashes if they were not married (fornicators). As well, the punishment should not be executed if there isn't an Islamic state, with proper facilities to have a trial with judge and witnesses.

May Allah grant them atonement for their sins, and a just reward for the punishment being too harsh for the crime. Certainly they will receive justice.

I hope that they felt sorry for what they did and turned to Allah in repentance before they died.

[RBphoto]

Also, tell them they are free to go to an Islamic country, accept Islam again and then apostate again....also, you are free to join them.

I see what you did there....

[muslimgirl_z]

Is this a 'religion' or 'discuss islam' topic????
gosh man

where were you when christians were being bashed?
Things only took a downturn when your brethren started condemning others / proclaiming their way to be the one true way etc etc etc

I do not condemn other people's religion. I respect their beliefs. However I do believe my religion is the truth. So insted of being ignorant ( I am not saying you are), try listening and understanding all religions. I know people who turned to and from islam. No one can force religion upon a person. Allah guides whom He wills.

What religions have you listened to and understood?
As mentioned very early in this thread, my mother is muslim, my father is hindu and my wife is presbyterian. I am atheist
My parents exposed me to both islam and hinduism equally and nobody pushed me into one or the other. I personally view all religions as man made forms of social control. Every religion has 'truths' and proofs' so in my opinion, no one is more 'real' than any other
The same way religious believers ask non believers to look at their religion with an open mind / heart etc, you can look with the same level of objectivity and see how all religions are flawed.....viewed come a completely objective view you can see how the architects of the bible borrowed from earlier cultures (e.g. the Sumerians), you can see how heavily the architects of the Koran borrowed for the bible, etc
It is unfortunate how most religious zealots take offence when people point out stuff like that, when in fact claiming your religion is the one true religion is equally disrespectful to followers of other religions and atheists alike.

I have had my fair share of being exposed to other religions and I have never seen changes in my life as much as I have with my islam. I have my beliefs that my religion is the true one. If you're offended, then so be it. I am not shouting it to your face. I have lots of hindu and christian friends, none of which is offended by me and whom I am offended by. Maybe if people stop being ignorant and start being a human, things would be just fine.

[maj. tom]

"Archaeology is the search for facts - not truth. If it's truth you're looking for, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall."

which left an indelible impression on me as deeply as the marvellous beauty of the Scientific Method.

[megadoc1]

we opress our women.. make dem wear a cloth on their heads... dat wat non muslims say.. but little do they no the bible states a woman must cover her head or else shave it off... why so many christians dont follow dis? do they know their religion.. far as i know all so- called images of Mary had a cloth on her head....

that's because if you studied their religion you would not have come up with this crap why not read the bible and see what it said?

Welcome back Megadoc, still waiting on a response on my post to you concerning the POLYTHEIST topic, specifically the STATUS OF JESUS.

breds I aint went no way.... .its just that it became so difficult to post here with all this noise!

...about the status of Jesus? amm if you could not grasp what
d spike wrote concerning that, nothing else can be said trust me ...because to me that was one of the easiest/shortest explanation given and done in such a hostile /noisy place like here! yet, it was easy to catch! how I learnt it, I had more explanations(over 14 hrs) available and a comfortable place without opposition....the way you guys operate here it would really be a waste of time to undertake such a task ...

[sMASH]

references to noisy place, and reference to how the rest of fellas getting on.... spike, u change ur name and avatar?


i cool with the explanation spike gave bout the trinity. i don't subscribe to it, but i not comparing it to what i have, i just wanted to know what they have. and now i have a better understanding.

to the muslima, christianity had its fair share of 'scrutiny' . we are now on the next in line.

the rules and guidelines of islam are what they are. we believe in islam as the religion to follow, if at least for us. belief in islam inherently and automatically includes abiding by the rules and guidelines stated.
what u in your secular westernized upbringing accept as good or bad may be different to what we accept as good or bad. so, for u to say that someting is unusually cruel and that is oppressive is not valid because u are judging our system against yours. belief in islam means a unilateral acceptance of the rules and associated penalties.

[deliah]

*yawn*
mornin fellas
so yeah.........since islam have the solution for everything, why all the fighting in so many islamic nations?
No wait......I forgot, dont blame the religion, blame th ebad people with evil in their hearts
Laters
*yawn*

what. you getting smart boy waaay thank god...

[d spike]

references to noisy place, and reference to how the rest of fellas getting on.... spike, u change ur name and avatar?

No lad, it's just that a topic hasn't been raised that requires or elicits a response from me. I find Adam B's postings dominating the dialogue, and while there is nothing wrong with this, much of it is abrasive, narrow-minded and containing some errors, but I don't see the point in responding.
First of all, he doesn't read what I write, and thus denies himself the ability to understand points made... this negates the whole point in taking part in a discussion. He has taken to dominating the conversation, but yet doesn't listen... so any effort spent in discussing an item is wasted.

Secondly (and more importantly) Adam B's rants and pronouncements are about Islam. It is easy to poke holes in Islam (I doubt I need to give any examples, so many have done so already) but these faults are all based on the humans who claimed to follow the religion - the same can be said of ANY religion... humans always have their own agendas, priorities, and ideas of how things should be done - and they invariably screw up any organization they get involved in... which is why I do not have a problem with folks who bash "organized religion".
I believe we are all going in the same direction, Adam B, Megadoc, MG... all of us. We just take different paths... some of us take paths that were laid out by those who went before, some find their own way.
It is quite clear to me that Adam B is certain about his direction and pathway, and he is going ahead under full power... and that is a good thing. While he pronounces errors, those errors are not directly linked to his faith, but to a faith alien to his, and everyone seems to realise that they are errant, so why should I say anything?

I see no point in telling a blind man that the sky is blue, if he believes it to be purple...
he won't believe me
bystanders won't learn anything from my statement except something to taunt him with
I will be wasting my time.

I'm glad I was able to assist you in understanding the concept of the Trinity - many Christians themselves don't get it.
I enjoy reading your posts, and look forward to reading more of them.

Cheers

[sMASH]

it looking like the criticizers kinda tired of the cycle now. ah mean, mg mash up the dance with a yawn.
mind you, our religion teaches us to stand up and do something about injustices, we are not the people to 'turn the other cheek'. this pacifism of our island culture is an opposite to what we are taught. i goin through some madness at work, and a few other muslims decide to stand up as well. i call round the plants to get the guys from a certain department to help support one of their own, and only a few people expressed a willingness to join the cause if others were falling in. they have a right according to the company's own black and white, but fear to acknowledge it because of the superiors 'tell' them verbally not to exercise.
most every body in our company getting over worked and feeling the pinch from management, yet still, no body want to upset the apple cart and does remark pseudo-jokingly we had to be making the trouble, we have to do our ting....
hardest ting is, they forcing me on vacation and i have to report back to them on september 11th.. i buss out a laugh in the manager's office when i read that in the letter.

[MG Man]

I have never seen changes in my life as much as I have with my islam..

believers in other religions have similar experiences.........what would you say to a muslim who converted to christianity and said those exact same words?
There are no absolute truths in religion

[RBphoto]

I have never seen changes in my life as much as I have with my islam..

believers in other religions have similar experiences.........what would you say to a muslim who converted to christianity and said those exact same words?
There are no absolute truths in religion

What if satan said "my work is done" and decided to leave her alone after she converted to Islam ?

[muslimgirl_z]

I have never seen changes in my life as much as I have with my islam..

believers in other religions have similar experiences.........what would you say to a muslim who converted to christianity and said those exact same words?
There are no absolute truths in religion

I would say ok, good for you, if that is your decision. Do you think I will shoot them? Everyone has to pay for their actions.

[muslimgirl_z]

I have never seen changes in my life as much as I have with my islam..

believers in other religions have similar experiences.........what would you say to a muslim who converted to christianity and said those exact same words?
There are no absolute truths in religion

What if satan said "my work is done" and decided to leave her alone after she converted to Islam ?

When did I say I 'converted'?

[RBphoto]

^^ Was going to write MG for muslim girl... then realized how that would call confusion, so you are now mgz.

mgz, just asking, how long have you did your shahadda to have that much change in your life? A few months? a few years? Statistically, if it was a shorter time than you were in another religion, you probably just got lucky. Also, are your parents Muslim? Are you actively trying to convert your family and telling tem they are a bunch of sinners? Are children involved? Are you telling your child that s(he) must no longer pray to Jesus? That they must learn a new religion and change thier belief system just because you said so? How is that panning out? How did you come to Islam? You don't just stumble upon Islam and "get into it". It is being accepted (assimilated?) into a large closed community. Bet you found a new love who was Muslim and that was the only way he would accept you into his life. Probably that is why things are better now, not because of religion, but because of your socio-economic situation. I might be a liittle off, on the details, and excuse me putting on my detective hat and pipe, but I don't see how else someone can decide to turn to Islam out of the blue. Wanna share?

[muslimgirl_z]

^^ Was going to write MG for muslim girl... then realized how that would call confusion, so you are now mgz.

mgz, just asking, how long have you did your shahadda to have that much change in your life? A few months? a few years? Statistically, if it was a shorter time than you were in another religion, you probably just got lucky. Also, are your parents Muslim? Are you actively trying to convert your family and telling tem they are a bunch of sinners? Are children involved? Are you telling your child that s(he) must no longer pray to Jesus? That they must learn a new religion and change thier belief system just because you said so? How is that panning out? How did you come to Islam? You don't just stumble upon Islam and "get into it". It is being accepted (assimilated?) into a large closed community. Bet you found a new love who was Muslim and that was the only way he would accept you into his life. Probably that is why things are better now, not because of religion, but because of your socio-economic situation. I might be a liittle off, on the details, and excuse me putting on my detective hat and pipe, but I don't see how else someone can decide to turn to Islam out of the blue. Wanna share?

What is all this interviewing about??? lol..
I was always a muslim. But all the encouragement occured when my brother got married to a hindu girl, who took shahadah (& she said, hinduism never made sense to her). The imam of our community, who had recently built up a masjid closeby, usually does da'wah work. He & his family helped us out a lot in our islam and learning what is right & wrong. From both my parents go back, we are muslims... it's just that not all muslims choose to practise the religion. Having now learnt the way of life, I began to practice it.
Islam has shown me how to accept things in my life and how to deal with the ups and downs. I have found peace in my life.
Finding my husband had nothing to do with this change, because I found him four years after.
Everyone is a sinner. It's just you have to pray for forgiveness and abstain from sinning.

Is there any other book in the world that is memorised from cover to cover, word for word, with the most accurate pronounciation, other than the Qur'an?

[sMASH]

crossdrilled wife, is that you???

but seriously, would u like to share your reasons why islam seems a good choice? at least from a woman's perspective.

[Dizzy28]

^^ Was going to write MG for muslim girl... then realized how that would call confusion, so you are now mgz.

mgz, just asking, how long have you did your shahadda to have that much change in your life? A few months? a few years? Statistically, if it was a shorter time than you were in another religion, you probably just got lucky. Also, are your parents Muslim? Are you actively trying to convert your family and telling tem they are a bunch of sinners? Are children involved? Are you telling your child that s(he) must no longer pray to Jesus? That they must learn a new religion and change thier belief system just because you said so? How is that panning out? How did you come to Islam? You don't just stumble upon Islam and "get into it". It is being accepted (assimilated?) into a large closed community. Bet you found a new love who was Muslim and that was the only way he would accept you into his life. Probably that is why things are better now, not because of religion, but because of your socio-economic situation. I might be a liittle off, on the details, and excuse me putting on my detective hat and pipe, but I don't see how else someone can decide to turn to Islam out of the blue. Wanna share?

What is all this interviewing about??? lol..
I was always a muslim. But all the encouragement occured when my brother got married to a hindu girl, who took shahadah (& she said, hinduism never made sense to her). The imam of our community, who had recently built up a masjid closeby, usually does da'wah work. He & his family helped us out a lot in our islam and learning what is right & wrong. From both my parents go back, we are muslims... it's just that not all muslims choose to practise the religion. Having now learnt the way of life, I began to practice it.
Islam has shown me how to accept things in my life and how to deal with the ups and downs. I have found peace in my life.
Finding my husband had nothing to do with this change, because I found him four years after.
Everyone is a sinner. It's just you have to pray for forgiveness and abstain from sinning.

Is there any other book in the world that is memorised from cover to cover, word for word, with the most accurate pronounciation, other than the Qur'an?

And this is somehting to be proud off??

[muslimgirl_z]

crossdrilled wife, is that you???

but seriously, would u like to share your reasons why islam seems a good choice? at least from a woman's perspective.

No, I am not crossdrilled wife. lol.
First and foremost.. with all the drama in my life (like everyone elses) I have found ways of accepting and dealing with it. Muslim women are more respected in society, but there are a few sickos who still holla at us (and by muslim women, I mean hijaab-wearing ones). Knowing the rewards & blessings in doing things as a muslim woman, is truly a comfort and peace at heart. I feel secured in my islam. & I know, no matter what, my prayer is answered, maybe not in a way 'I' wanted, but in a way Allah knows is best for me.
We see the little pictures of life and wonder why so and so... but Allah sees the entire thing and knows all of the little things are best for us. By this we learn to have patience and trust in Allah.

[muslimgirl_z]

^^ Was going to write MG for muslim girl... then realized how that would call confusion, so you are now mgz.

mgz, just asking, how long have you did your shahadda to have that much change in your life? A few months? a few years? Statistically, if it was a shorter time than you were in another religion, you probably just got lucky. Also, are your parents Muslim? Are you actively trying to convert your family and telling tem they are a bunch of sinners? Are children involved? Are you telling your child that s(he) must no longer pray to Jesus? That they must learn a new religion and change thier belief system just because you said so? How is that panning out? How did you come to Islam? You don't just stumble upon Islam and "get into it". It is being accepted (assimilated?) into a large closed community. Bet you found a new love who was Muslim and that was the only way he would accept you into his life. Probably that is why things are better now, not because of religion, but because of your socio-economic situation. I might be a liittle off, on the details, and excuse me putting on my detective hat and pipe, but I don't see how else someone can decide to turn to Islam out of the blue. Wanna share?

What is all this interviewing about??? lol..
I was always a muslim. But all the encouragement occured when my brother got married to a hindu girl, who took shahadah (& she said, hinduism never made sense to her). The imam of our community, who had recently built up a masjid closeby, usually does da'wah work. He & his family helped us out a lot in our islam and learning what is right & wrong. From both my parents go back, we are muslims... it's just that not all muslims choose to practise the religion. Having now learnt the way of life, I began to practice it.
Islam has shown me how to accept things in my life and how to deal with the ups and downs. I have found peace in my life.
Finding my husband had nothing to do with this change, because I found him four years after.
Everyone is a sinner. It's just you have to pray for forgiveness and abstain from sinning.

Is there any other book in the world that is memorised from cover to cover, word for word, with the most accurate pronounciation, other than the Qur'an?

And this is somehting to be proud off??

YES

[RBphoto]

Is there any other book in the world that is memorised from cover to cover, word for word, with the most accurate pronounciation, other than the Qur'an?

The cat in the hat

Try pronouncing anything different from first time nah... chile cyah talk yet and will throw a tantrum

[muslimgirl_z]

Is there any other book in the world that is memorised from cover to cover, word for word, with the most accurate pronounciation, other than the Qur'an?

The cat in the hat

Try pronouncing anything different from first time nah... chile cyah talk yet and will throw a tantrum

lol.. ok

[Dizzy28]

^^ Was going to write MG for muslim girl... then realized how that would call confusion, so you are now mgz.

mgz, just asking, how long have you did your shahadda to have that much change in your life? A few months? a few years? Statistically, if it was a shorter time than you were in another religion, you probably just got lucky. Also, are your parents Muslim? Are you actively trying to convert your family and telling tem they are a bunch of sinners? Are children involved? Are you telling your child that s(he) must no longer pray to Jesus? That they must learn a new religion and change thier belief system just because you said so? How is that panning out? How did you come to Islam? You don't just stumble upon Islam and "get into it". It is being accepted (assimilated?) into a large closed community. Bet you found a new love who was Muslim and that was the only way he would accept you into his life. Probably that is why things are better now, not because of religion, but because of your socio-economic situation. I might be a liittle off, on the details, and excuse me putting on my detective hat and pipe, but I don't see how else someone can decide to turn to Islam out of the blue. Wanna share?

What is all this interviewing about??? lol..
I was always a muslim. But all the encouragement occured when my brother got married to a hindu girl, who took shahadah (& she said, hinduism never made sense to her). The imam of our community, who had recently built up a masjid closeby, usually does da'wah work. He & his family helped us out a lot in our islam and learning what is right & wrong. From both my parents go back, we are muslims... it's just that not all muslims choose to practise the religion. Having now learnt the way of life, I began to practice it.
Islam has shown me how to accept things in my life and how to deal with the ups and downs. I have found peace in my life.
Finding my husband had nothing to do with this change, because I found him four years after.
Everyone is a sinner. It's just you have to pray for forgiveness and abstain from sinning.

Is there any other book in the world that is memorised from cover to cover, word for word, with the most accurate pronounciation, other than the Qur'an?

And this is somehting to be proud off??

YES

All it shows is that Muslims have good memory. Doesn't prove anything else.

[RBphoto]

^^^ I heard many diferent pronounciations of the recitals from visiting imams from Africa and Egypt. Doh sound the same at all.

[MG Man]

I would say ok, good for you, if that is your decision. Do you think I will shoot them? Everyone has to pay for their actions.

why would I think that?
You pre-stereotyped my pre-stereotyping of you?

Muslim women are more respected in society, (and by muslim women, I mean hijaab-wearing ones).

lolwhut?
what makes you think muslim women (by your definition) are more respected in society?
I respect women who are intelligent, independent, self motivated etc.
How did you determine muslim women are more respected?

[RBphoto]

Jus because mankind saying "nah... dem eh runnin nuttin... dey wearing Hijab" ... doh mistake leaving well enough alone for respect.