Should carnival, fetes and so on be banned?

[Redress10]

Carnival's roots has nothing to do with slaves or the Caribbean... Its origin is european. It is a mixture of Nordic festivals that morphed into the Roman saternalia. The church did their modifications when they tried to ban saturnalia and that's how we have lent Christmas Yadda Yadda....

Carnival started with slaves dressing up and imitating their french colonial masters and a whole host of other cultural additions. Ask yourself this. Why is there no pre lenten carnival in catholic/anglican european countries?
The pre lenten "free up" is suppose to represent glutony. This includes things such as great feasts and eating all the food that you possess.

It has nothing to do with a 2 day drunking orgy in Port of Spain.

Yes and no.

What you are describing is the celebration that occur before ash wednesday that are closely link to christianity and catholicism. Basically a celebration of excess consumption before the start of fasting and the lenten period.

What we have in trinidad for carnival tuesday/wednesday has nothing to do with christianity and catholicism. It's nothing more than a street party no difference to cropover/grenada carnival/jamaica carnival/labour day/nottinghill carnival.

You mixing up what carnival means in christianity to what we do here in tnt. The two are no longer related which is why it should be detached from setting it based on the christian calender. So for instance it cud just be "calculated" as the 6th monday of the year.

You have to be really special if you believe that a bunch of drunk half naked people running around grinding on each other for two days straight has anything to do with christianity/catholicsm.

Ashes have nothing to do with carnival monday/tuesday. Ash wednesday opens lent, a period of fasting. I think because we calculate our carnival dates with ash wednesday people connecting the two. These two are not connected.

[l33t2]

Carnival's roots has nothing to do with slaves or the Caribbean... Its origin is european. It is a mixture of Nordic festivals that morphed into the Roman saternalia. The church did their modifications when they tried to ban saturnalia and that's how we have lent Christmas Yadda Yadda....

Carnival started with slaves dressing up and imitating their french colonial masters and a whole host of other cultural additions. Ask yourself this. Why is there no pre lenten carnival in catholic/anglican european countries?
The pre lenten "free up" is suppose to represent glutony. This includes things such as great feasts and eating all the food that you possess.

It has nothing to do with a 2 day drunking orgy in Port of Spain.

Yes and no.

What you are describing is the celebration that occur before ash wednesday that are closely link to christianity and catholicism. Basically a celebration of excess consumption before the start of fasting and the lenten period.

What we have in trinidad for carnival tuesday/wednesday has nothing to do with christianity and catholicism. It's nothing more than a street party no difference to cropover/grenada carnival/jamaica carnival/labour day/nottinghill carnival.

You mixing up what carnival means in christianity to what we do here in tnt. The two are no longer related which is why it should be detached from setting it based on the christian calender. So for instance it cud just be "calculated" as the 6th monday of the year.

You have to be really special if you believe that a bunch of drunk half naked people running around grinding on each other for two days straight has anything to do with christianity/catholicsm.

Ashes have nothing to do with carnival monday/tuesday. Ash wednesday opens lent, a period of fasting. I think because we calculate our carnival dates with ash wednesday people connecting the two. These two are not connected.

8th even 9th Monday is better

[l33t2]

Carnival is a devil inspired festival. There are large numbers of us religious minded folks in Trinidad who are proposing (soon petitioning) for reduction of the vulgarity (ban on all thongs and small wire bras), reduction is the season length, reduction in approved fetes.

This wine and Jam, bikini and beads (now it's as bare as string and glitter) needs to stop.

ZR is right, even if this thing earns us money, the long term social cost needs to be evaluated.

Remember what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Ok crazy religious views aside, i have a question for older 2ners here.

Has carnival always been this sexual?

I watch old mas on TV (well Kes Savannah Grass made me go on a youtube binge of ole time mas) and wonder sometimes what did people really enjoy? It does not look as nearly as fun as today's carnival. Most of the music was entirely different (not wine or jump up kinda songs) and the overall mood seemed more relaxed.

I've asked many people in the industry, and I've heard many varying responses, but the general consensus was that there was always a sexual appeal.

Now it's more socially acceptable for women to wear thongs and I've heard a number of women say if they had the body they'd wear as little as possible.

I'm a 90s teen, and SAGHs girls used to be wining down the place in nuts and base, probably worse than things I see nowadays. When did that start? Only problem with my memory is that I think that kinda wildness used to happen for mosly dancehall and not 'soca'

[Monk BANzai]

Carnival is a devil inspired festival. There are large numbers of us religious minded folks in Trinidad who are proposing (soon petitioning) for reduction of the vulgarity (ban on all thongs and small wire bras), reduction is the season length, reduction in approved fetes.

This wine and Jam, bikini and beads (now it's as bare as string and glitter) needs to stop.

ZR is right, even if this thing earns us money, the long term social cost needs to be evaluated.

Remember what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Ok crazy religious views aside, i have a question for older 2ners here.

Has carnival always been this sexual?

I watch old mas on TV (well Kes Savannah Grass made me go on a youtube binge of ole time mas) and wonder sometimes what did people really enjoy? It does not look as nearly as fun as today's carnival. Most of the music was entirely different (not wine or jump up kinda songs) and the overall mood seemed more relaxed.

I've asked many people in the industry, and I've heard many varying responses, but the general consensus was that there was always a sexual appeal.

Now it's more socially acceptable for women to wear thongs and I've heard a number of women say if they had the body they'd wear as little as possible.

I'm a 90s teen, and SAGHs girls used to be wining down the place in nuts and base, probably worse than things I see nowadays. When did that start? Only problem with my memory is that I think that kinda wildness used to happen for mosly dancehall and not 'soca'

no its has not...in fact 'back in the day" you'd look forward to going through the Express and Guardian/Sunday Punch/Bomb (RIP Chokolingo) to see the Brazilian coverage of carnival to see a lil "exposed breast covered with a Star" pic....to me...Mas Band Legends was the turning point from a visual standpoint... but make no mistake... back when Roy Maraj ran Flour/WASA/Licensing (those in particular..and you knew of those fetes ...it was a sex fest..... fetes by today's standards have gotten "sorf".....

The other Carnival Bantons can opine to a greater degree as to what i'm saying....

[De Dragon]

Carnival is a devil inspired festival. There are large numbers of us religious minded folks in Trinidad who are proposing (soon petitioning) for reduction of the vulgarity (ban on all thongs and small wire bras), reduction is the season length, reduction in approved fetes.

This wine and Jam, bikini and beads (now it's as bare as string and glitter) needs to stop.

ZR is right, even if this thing earns us money, the long term social cost needs to be evaluated.

Remember what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.

Ok crazy religious views aside, i have a question for older 2ners here.

Has carnival always been this sexual?

I watch old mas on TV (well Kes Savannah Grass made me go on a youtube binge of ole time mas) and wonder sometimes what did people really enjoy? It does not look as nearly as fun as today's carnival. Most of the music was entirely different (not wine or jump up kinda songs) and the overall mood seemed more relaxed.

I've asked many people in the industry, and I've heard many varying responses, but the general consensus was that there was always a sexual appeal.

Now it's more socially acceptable for women to wear thongs and I've heard a number of women say if they had the body they'd wear as little as possible.

I'm a 90s teen, and SAGHs girls used to be wining down the place in nuts and base, probably worse than things I see nowadays. When did that start? Only problem with my memory is that I think that kinda wildness used to happen for mosly dancehall and not 'soca'

no its has not...in fact 'back in the day" you'd look forward to going through the Express and Guardian/Sunday Punch/Bomb (RIP Chokolingo) to see the Brazilian coverage of carnival to see a lil "exposed breast covered with a Star" pic....to me...Mas Band Legends was the turning point from a visual standpoint... but make no mistake... back when Roy Maraj ran Flour/WASA/Licensing (those in particular..and you knew of those fetes ...it was a sex fest..... fetes by today's standards have gotten "sorf".....

The other Carnival Bantons can opine to a greater degree as to what i'm saying....

Definitely more artistic back in the day and less sexual. Road March songs tended to be much less up-tempo to the almost every single offering today, heck some of them might not even have qualified for Groovy

[88sins]

I am saying, quite simply, Carnival is all about sex. Is that what we want our children exposed too?

Firstly, just because it's been developing into something thats becoming ever more sensual doesn't make Carnival sexual or "about sex. That right there is because sex is where your mind goes, from the time you see a little skin you think sex. It's not entirely your fault ho, because it's what your religious leader has pounded into your head on this topic, but it's your fault that you chose to follow their ravings blindly & obediently never questioned them to prove what they were saying, because you wanted to be the good sheep they wanted you to be.

Secondly, how you feel children get here? Mammy & Daddy was playin hopscotch to produce them? No, most of them are the result of consensual sexual intercourse that takes place all year round, every day of the week, & sometimes twice on a Sunday. you feel ppl does only screw for Carnival owa

Now, which would you prefer,
1-Keep your child ignorant about sensuality and sexuality, & as a byproduct of their ignorance they become hyper-sensitized to these aspects of life when they eventually encounter them, (just know that this creates more than a few psychological and behavioral problems, meaning said child could grow into a tusty man/rapist, or a peeping tom, or a homosexual, or to develop inappropriate feelings towards his mother or female siblings or relatives including male relatives, etc)?
or
2-Gradually introduce them to be aware of what sensuality and sexuality are, in a controlled manner over a slow pace & let them know that that those things are not for them at their present age & making sure they understand this & follow your directions and come to terms with this aspect of life & become a well rounded member of society?




or, lemme keep it even simpler for you.
Son, if there are coral snakes in the grass, and you intentionally bring up your child ignorant to this fact & one day when you are not around he goes and plays in the grass, gets bitten by said snakes & dies a painful & agonizing death & you return to find him dead, you and you alone would be directly responsible for his demise by virtue of your withholding critically important information he needed to know in order for him to keep himself safe. & you would have failed as a father.
once you cool with that, do as you wish.



EDIT:
btw, since you're a "religious person" & you mentioned Sodom & Gomorrah I would think it safe to assume you're a follower of Christianity, & believe that God the Father of Jesus Christ knows what's best for us all. Whatever you wish to call him,Yahweh, Jehovah, The Lord or whatever, knows what's best for us all from since the beginning of man's existence. So, that being the case, make a note of the following facts according to Christianity

A-When God created Adam, He did not create him in jeans & a t-shirt
B-When He took a rib from Adam to create Eve, He did not create her wearing a long sun dress.
C-He never told Adam to or Eve to cover their bodies with anything, not once.
D-If it were not for Adam & Eve's original sin & their decision to think they knew better than God Himself & the subsequent events that followed, you, me & everyone else presently on this big blue marble would be lying around, johnsons, nutz, poonannies & butts airing out in the breeze, naked as a flock of jaybirds
E-If that were the case, more likely than not nobody would care who was/wasn't wearing what, because as indicated above nobody wearing anything, & a little wiggling bambam would be nothing worthy of mention compared to seeing things much more interesting or disturbing. Like oh say ppl having vigorous sexual intercourse in the open air outdoors for everybody to see. Or as you wake up on a morning you watching your neighbor morning wood.
Just a lil food for thought

[hydroep]

While there will always be the proverbial "generation gap" where the older heads find the younger generation is depraved and have no morals, I do get where l33t2 is coming from. If you keep allowing your standards to slide with each generation where are we heading?

Now don't get me wrong eh, I like to watch female bress and bumsee jiggling and glistening as much as the next guy but right now you have some members of the local "intelligentsia" talking about banning pornography because of the negative effects on society. Some may argue that a lot of what passes for Carnival nowadays IS softcore pornography. So...they banning that too or they going to wait until people start playing "balls and holes" on the street?

Definitely more artistic back in the day and less sexual. Road March songs tended to be much less up-tempo to the almost every single offering today, heck some of them might not even have qualified for Groovy

Agreed. Back in the day going to watch mas was a family thing, yuh find a spot on the street and is mas fuh so, bands coming one after the other and yuh cyar wait to see the King and Queen of the band. "Jam and wine" was there but that was kinda lost in the spectacle, unless you were actively looking for it. Now the roles have reversed and the sexuality is front and center, with the mas (if you can call wire and string "mas") being secondary.

[88sins]

hydroep, all I go say is this
The day soca was born was the day ode time mas started to die, & today it's pretty much dead

[maj. tom]

Carnival Trinidad 1957


Carnival Trinidad 1959


Trinidad Carnival 1960s

[Premier Marketing]

Yes ban the fuvking ting.

Bunch ah noise than promotes violent behaviour & unwanted pregnancies.

It builds racism promoted by PNM kiaso tents.

Schools are affected for about 2 weeks

It teaches little kids to wine like dogs.

More drunk injuns

Productivity at work drops, workers coming to work tired from last night fetes.

Broke arse ppl after carnival

Foreign germs and illness coming in.

Hospital are rammed from all sorts of injuries .

Increase in crime as we note the present PNM murder rate

I agree !

[De Dragon]

While there will always be the proverbial "generation gap" where the older heads find the younger generation is depraved and have no morals, I do get where l33t2 is coming from. If you keep allowing your standards to slide with each generation where are we heading?

Now don't get me wrong eh, I like to watch female bress and bumsee jiggling and glistening as much as the next guy but right now you have some members of the local "intelligentsia" talking about banning pornography because of the negative effects on society. Some may argue that a lot of what passes for Carnival nowadays IS softcore pornography. So...they banning that too or they going to wait until people start playing "balls and holes" on the street?

Definitely more artistic back in the day and less sexual. Road March songs tended to be much less up-tempo to the almost every single offering today, heck some of them might not even have qualified for Groovy

Agreed. Back in the day going to watch mas was a family thing, yuh find a spot on the street and is mas fuh so, bands coming one after the other and yuh cyar wait to see the King and Queen of the band. "Jam and wine" was there but that was kinda lost in the spectacle, unless you were actively looking for it. Now the roles have reversed and the sexuality is front and center, with the mas (if you can call wire and string "mas") being secondary.

I stopped taking my children to the Savannah on Carnival Tuesdays, when I saw people acting in a manner that I couldn't quite explain to them.

[The_Honourable]

The business of Carnival?

Today, the media called to ask me about the business of Carnival... not for the first, second or third year. In fact, one year my response got me an invitation from the the Chairperson of the NCC to a postmortem on the very subject. Needless to say, same questions... to an unchanging situation.

You see, there is no business of Carnival in T&T. There is business that happens as a consequence of Carnival....all inclusives, vending, etc. But for the most part Carnival is one of taxpayer funded largest transfer/social payment, kept so by all governments to date.

If there was a business of Carnival, we”d have dissected the sub-products into profitable, potentially profitable, discardable and worthy of subsidy... the last being determined by issues of protecting cultural traditions and art, but with a medium to long view of converting to profitable or at least break even.

If there were a business of Carnival, we’d have defined a medium term incremental withdrawal of state funding annually, and we’d have in place the data capture mechanism to track progress and adjust to purpose as needed.

If there was a business of carnival, we’d know the annual public spend and the projected return on investment. We’d know the methodology to calculate return on investment, data capture on tourist arrivals and spend for Carnival, growth trends in sub-product delivery etc.

But we don’t have a business of Carnival, so fancy air conditioned washroom facilities at the free Carnival village (contractor and contractee singing to the bank) financed by taxpayers.

Mind you, we have all the ingredients to turn Carnival into a serious revenue generating, employment creating, foreign exchange earning industry... those who can simply lack the knowledge. Skills, vision and sense of country to get it done. And those who can are not given opportunity to do.

Tune in next year when I’ll just need to repost this as the more things change in sweet T&T, the more they stay the same.

Indera Sagewan-Alli.
Economist.

[shake d livin wake d dead]

Yes ban the fuvking ting.

Bunch ah noise than promotes violent behaviour & unwanted pregnancies.

It builds racism promoted by PNM kiaso tents.

Schools are affected for about 2 weeks

It teaches little kids to wine like dogs.

More drunk injuns

Productivity at work drops, workers coming to work tired from last night fetes.

Broke arse ppl after carnival

Foreign germs and illness coming in.

Hospital are rammed from all sorts of injuries .

Increase in crime as we note the present PNM murder rate

I agree !

Injuns doh need carnival to be drunk....

[De Dragon]

Yes ban the fuvking ting.

Bunch ah noise than promotes violent behaviour & unwanted pregnancies.

It builds racism promoted by PNM kiaso tents.

Schools are affected for about 2 weeks

It teaches little kids to wine like dogs.

More drunk injuns

Productivity at work drops, workers coming to work tired from last night fetes.

Broke arse ppl after carnival

Foreign germs and illness coming in.

Hospital are rammed from all sorts of injuries .

Increase in crime as we note the present PNM murder rate

I agree !

Injuns doh need carnival to be drunk....

Dem is jus change venues to river and Mayaro.

[Trinispougla]

How is it NOW pushing the limit?

To be honest, the current economic circumstances may very well force Carnival to become limited in the future. True there are still fetes going on, but there are less when one considers years past and as the economic situation unfolds more may go the same way.

We may find that fetes go either one way or the other, they may be ultra-exclusive or mass market basic as time wears on, but more importantly they may not be tapping into the audiences that they used to.

I know folks like to say that people will be taking out "Carnival Loans" but this too may become a rare thing as financing becomes a problem in general not for the banks, speaking about the average man.

Another point to note is splitting of the stage from Queens' Park to include Soca Drome, and the added competition for mas goers from events like Machel Mondays. These things may further split the market and create greater exclusivity and this may drive prices higher, further limiting participation. This has been a part of our past, where certain bands catered to certain clientele much to exclusion of most what followed was the "die-hard mas men". With the economic booms we had this massive swell in the middle class and the middle ground and the growth in this commercial carnival we now see.

The future might see the Soca Drome being the it spot for the rich who want to flash, Machel Mondays may also be the venue for those as well although normal folks could buy in but again with exclusivity prices may go up. Queens park will be for the "Die Hards" and such...I don't really know what to say about Queens' Park really...

Even if you factor in the diaspora this is small and they won't really grow or expand the industry.

Long and short of it, you don't need to ban Carnival, it may very well succumb to the harsh economic situation and shrink. Look at the trouble pan is in.

I disagree totally. Trinidad in the 60s was by all standards including imf and world bank ratings, a poor country. Carnival was still around. Carnival has been around since thev emancipation of slaves, through the Canboulay riots to now. The economic circumstances are not permanent. Trinidad not going to become a poor country any time soon.

On another note, Pan has always been in trouble. Merchant sang in the late 70s about it and its no different now.

[FordeG]

Carnival is turning our women into vulgar unashamed prostitutes. Who in their right mind would settle down with a woman who has paraded herself in a thong infront of thousands.

[abducted]

Carnival is turning our women into vulgar unashamed prostitutes. Who in their right mind would settle down with a woman who has paraded herself in a thong infront of thousands.

You should see a psychiatrist, you probably want to stone a woman to death for showing her ankle, it's a good thing all the insecure men are holed up in this one topic.

[88sins]

Carnival is turning our women into vulgar unashamed prostitutes. Who in their right mind would settle down with a woman who has paraded herself in a thong infront of thousands.

heads up,
are you aware that the female you'd consider to be your ideal virtuous well clothed female spouse, would actually become a prostitute the moment you married her?

[tr1ad]

Carnival is turning our women into vulgar unashamed prostitutes. Who in their right mind would settle down with a woman who has paraded herself in a thong infront of thousands.

who in their right mind would still have unquestionable faith in the catholic religion after all these issues with priests?

[shake d livin wake d dead]

Carnival is turning our women into vulgar unashamed prostitutes. Who in their right mind would settle down with a woman who has paraded herself in a thong infront of thousands.

Desi?

[88sins]

FordeG,
you stated prior that you are a "religious minded person". So I feel compelled to offer you some advice to help you keep your sanity.
Do not confuse religiousness to righteousness, the two are not the same, & the latter is far better to strive for than the former. All forms of religiousness needs the disguise of righteousness otherwise it fails & dies, but true righteousness has absolutely no need for any part of any religion & never will.
If you, your wife & kids don't want no part of carnival, good. stay out of it. Go camping for the weekend, for the 4 days from Saturday morning to Tuesday evening. If your son want to go & you don't want him to, keep him home or , see camping option.

I heard my son talking to his friends last year, he is 15, and they said they saw dozens of exposed nipples on carnival Tuesday!!

btw, i believe yuh son & his friends liked what they saw, & knew in advance what they wanted to see before they saw it, hence the reason for going in the first place. If you don't like that they saw those "dozens of exposed nipples", that's all your fault bruh, for not ensuring he keep his behind out of PoS that fine Tuesday afternoon. If he playing like he didn't want to see that, that's most likely solely for your benefit.

[The_Honourable]

Carnival is turning our women into vulgar unashamed prostitutes. Who in their right mind would settle down with a woman who has paraded herself in a thong infront of thousands.

So Carnival put a gun to women's head and force them to be vulgar? If they ban carnival now, you think juss so these women will turn into righteous virgins? All the sexual inhibitions bottled up, where they going to release some of it? You can make the case Carnival now facilitates degeneration but Carnival before wasn't degenerate so is not the festival itself the cause.

Keep in mind it have some conservative women who don't go parading 1/2 naked on the street but they still bad like gas.

[nick639v2]

Carnival is turning our women into vulgar unashamed prostitutes. Who in their right mind would settle down with a woman who has paraded herself in a thong infront of thousands.

Watch if the lil baytees wanna sprawl out and have regrets ash wednesday morning then so be it. This year was real pashaw and it barely costing a box of kfc

[Slartibartfast]

Carnival is turning our women into vulgar unashamed prostitutes. Who in their right mind would settle down with a woman who has paraded herself in a thong infront of thousands.

Lol. Ever stopped to consider that life is not as simple as you are minded?