The Religion Discussion

[crock101]

Maj.Tom ..you have a point and I have no defense against it.I guess it is a little unsportsmanlike to continue in this manner .
I never saw it a beating a dead horse, more like faking down syndrome and entering the special Olympics. I should probably stop.

[bluesclues]

Blueclues. Judging from the other things you already believe in, the two suns thing isn't that far a stretch

u just think religious/spiritual people are extremely dumb.

[crock101]

Blues clues .....not all religious people , just most,not even all the time.
You guys seem to function well enough in society,thinking logically on most topics,it just seems like when this subject comes up, a partition is created in the brain and logic is no longer welcome.
Well that is my view on this.

[Slartibartfast]

I concur.

[Habit7]

Blues clues .....not all religious people , just most,not even all the time.
You guys seem to function well enough in society,thinking logically on most topics,it just seems like when this subject comes up, a partition is created in the brain and logic is no longer welcome.
Well that is my view on this.

But the problem is as an atheist, you have no basis for logic.

The laws of logic are intelligible, immaterial standards that are universal to everyone are all times. You don't believe an intelligent mind preceded the laws of logic and as a naturalist you have no means to account for the immaterial nature of the laws of logic.

It is only in a theistic view and specifically a Christian worldview that we have a omniscient source for the laws of logic and a clear standard set out with His transcendent interaction with man and eventually encapsulated in the Bible. It is with these laws of logic established, Galileo, Newton, Kelvin and others set out to discover a world consistent with this logic which is an axiomatic prerequisite to any science.

Therefore you guffaw and ridicule supernatural events recorded in the Bible, all while being opened to the more incredulous panspermia or that a intelligent and ordered creation has no intelligent and ordered cause. It is like those scientists who once believed in spontaneous generation, however you just kick the can down the road and use it as a greater explanation for matter, space and time. That is your logic.

What is also your logic, and the logic of some of the other atheists here, is claiming that you have no views on God or religion. Yet you troll an religion thread and try to use some argument you saw in a meme, a 3min youtube video or rationalwiki. Only when you meet ppl who can answer you and turn back the spotlight on you, you then realise it is a waste of time. Well for ppl who claim not have any religious inkling, you guys sure do waste a lot of time on it.

[Slartibartfast]

Lol.... this makes me concur with crock even harder

[Imrany]

I witnessed a jinn position

[crock101]

I am not even going to bother. It is starting to feel like keeping an angry midget at arms length while kicking him in the balls, sure it's funny but you feel guilty afterwards.

[York]

oh and dont for forget resurrection from the death,the basis of all Christianity

Lazarus was resurrected from the dead. Jesus was not because he was not crucified in the first place.

This being true shatters all of Christianity. It becomes baseless.

[nareshseep]

Blues clues .....not all religious people , just most,not even all the time.
You guys seem to function well enough in society,thinking logically on most topics,it just seems like when this subject comes up, a partition is created in the brain and logic is no longer welcome.
Well that is my view on this.

But the problem is as an atheist, you have no basis for logic.
(that is Habit7 opinion)

The laws of logic are intelligible, immaterial standards that are universal to everyone are all times. You don't believe an intelligent mind preceded the laws of logic and as a naturalist you have no means to account for the immaterial nature of the laws of logic.

(But which God is the correct one? It is always the one the believer follows)

It is only in a theistic view and specifically a Christian worldview that we have a omniscient source for the laws of logic and a clear standard set out with His transcendent interaction with man and eventually encapsulated in the Bible. It is with these laws of logic established, Galileo, Newton, Kelvin and others set out to discover a world consistent with this logic which is an axiomatic prerequisite to any science.

(So what about the other world views? Can the other worldviews be true as well, or are you biased towards you own worldview)

Therefore you guffaw and ridicule supernatural events recorded in the Bible, all while being opened to the more incredulous panspermia or that a intelligent and ordered creation has no intelligent and ordered cause. It is like those scientists who once believed in spontaneous generation, however you just kick the can down the road and use it as a greater explanation for matter, space and time. That is your logic.

(Yup the soucouyant and Lagahoo are real)

What is also your logic, and the logic of some of the other atheists here, is claiming that you have no views on God or religion. Yet you troll an religion thread and try to use some argument you saw in a meme, a 3min youtube video or rationalwiki. Only when you meet ppl who can answer you and turn back the spotlight on you, you then realise it is a waste of time. Well for ppl who claim not have any religious inkling, you guys sure do waste a lot of time on it.

(A worthless god (if it exists) depends on brainwashed subjects to propagate the lie to the masses. Its like dem ole folk tales, if they are not repeated they die, if they are passed on,the stories "live". Same with all religion thats why there is need to "save" the chirren while they are young. Because if the chirren grow up without the hocus pocus, then they will never accept that crap willingly when dey become adults. #brainwashing #programming.

My view on god is that it is an imaginary concept believe by most folks, which is responsible for the state the world is : both good and bad. It is needed for some folks - otherwise they would run amok. )

[crock101]

Naresheep is my new best friend .logic wins every time

[Habit7]

Blues clues .....not all religious people , just most,not even all the time.
You guys seem to function well enough in society,thinking logically on most topics,it just seems like when this subject comes up, a partition is created in the brain and logic is no longer welcome.
Well that is my view on this.

But the problem is as an atheist, you have no basis for logic.
(that is Habit7 opinion)
It is not my opinion, I then went on to logically qualify that statement by show what logic is an how atheism cannot account for it. Now would be a great time to explain an atheistic basis for the laws of logic that are universal and timeless, can you?

The laws of logic are intelligible, immaterial standards that are universal to everyone are all times. You don't believe an intelligent mind preceded the laws of logic and as a naturalist you have no means to account for the immaterial nature of the laws of logic.

(But which God is the correct one? It is always the one the believer follows)
I dont see how that question arises from what I said so far...

It is only in a theistic view and specifically a Christian worldview that we have a omniscient source for the laws of logic and a clear standard set out with His transcendent interaction with man and eventually encapsulated in the Bible. It is with these laws of logic established, Galileo, Newton, Kelvin and others set out to discover a world consistent with this logic which is an axiomatic prerequisite to any science.

(So what about the other world views? Can the other worldviews be true as well, or are you biased towards you own worldview)
Other worldviews cannot be true because it would violate the law of non-contradiction, A cannot be both A and not A at the same time and in the same sense. Are you new to this?

Therefore you guffaw and ridicule supernatural events recorded in the Bible, all while being opened to the more incredulous panspermia or that a intelligent and ordered creation has no intelligent and ordered cause. It is like those scientists who once believed in spontaneous generation, however you just kick the can down the road and use it as a greater explanation for matter, space and time. That is your logic.

(Yup the soucouyant and Lagahoo are real)
If you want to believe that no one is stopping but that is inconsequential to the issues raised though...

What is also your logic, and the logic of some of the other atheists here, is claiming that you have no views on God or religion. Yet you troll an religion thread and try to use some argument you saw in a meme, a 3min youtube video or rationalwiki. Only when you meet ppl who can answer you and turn back the spotlight on you, you then realise it is a waste of time. Well for ppl who claim not have any religious inkling, you guys sure do waste a lot of time on it.

(A worthless god (if it exists) depends on brainwashed subjects to propagate the lie to the masses. Its like dem ole folk tales, if they are not repeated they die, if they are passed on,the stories "live". Same with all religion thats why there is need to "save" the chirren while they are young. Because if the chirren grow up without the hocus pocus, then they will never accept that crap willingly when dey become adults. #brainwashing #programming.
You are right, But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Matthew 19:14

But you would be naive to think that growing up your children as atheist, agnostic or free thinking is not likewise indoctrinating them as well with some worldview. Take for instance those who grew up in atheistic Marxist countries, having had all sembelence of religion stripped from their life. Now that such regulations have laxed and ppl celebrate true free thought, there is rising religious conversion from those with an atheistic upbringing, so your point is moot. http://cascade.uoregon.edu/fall2010/soc ... unist-era/

My view on god is that it is an imaginary concept believe by most folks, which is responsible for the state the world is : both good and bad. It is needed for some folks - otherwise they would run amok. )
Glad to know that is your view, even greater to know that I have convinced you to not only value religion for the bad that occurred but for the overwhelming good as well. But in all this back and forth colouring your failed to answer...

As an atheist, where do you get you concept of logic from without borrowing it from a theistic worldview?

Shout to all those who afraid to engage in reasonable dialogue but only want to lob pejoratives. I see ya.

[maj. tom]

So imagine if Habit7 was a Mohammedan. He would be quoting some heavy desert-life scripture that he absolutely knows to be the truth to live by. He has never once wondered how and why he was chosen for this one particular religious sect of all those that exists(ed) in earth's history.

But you all need to stop. Some people are really supposed to be left within the cave. (Re: Allegory of the Cave, of which you will discover that Habit7's plight is something that has been known for a long time, even before his religious beliefs even appeared.)

So serious guys. Let's just move on. Some people really do decide that they have no choice about things.

[Habit7]

So you want us to not discuss religion, in a religion thread?

[meccalli]

Some people are really supposed to be left within the cave.

So true.

Science still can't figure out why exactly you came out.

[BoxEater]

ppl dont follow their religion...they follow their pastors, pundits, imams.......judging from what i have heard none of those religious leaders tell their congregation what their book says except the imam.....

[Slartibartfast]

Guess you dont hear much then.

[crock101]

Most people who read these holy books in search of morals usually already have better morals than the book they are reading.
Think about it , if you really didn't know right from wrong, you would have no problem following Deuteronomy in its entirety. Instead they read it and nit pick through it, picking out whatever they like and ignoring the rest.
Certain people.... one of who's name may or may not rhyme with rabbit, will have no problem saying that gays are bad, after all the bible says so, but is against stoning a woman to death on her father's doorstep for not being a virgin on her wedding night ,in spite of it being in the bible.
The point it this ...This rabbit guy has better morals than the book he claims to get his morals from.

Rabbit ....I mean habit ....if I am misrepresenting you stance on gay men please set me straight.....get it.
But seriously if I am mistaken about you and you are actually a big supporter of the gay rights movement please let your voice be heard .

[nareshseep]

Habit7 seems to think that his opinions are facts. It can be shown by Habit 7 that any argument can be twisted for ones favour by laying claim in a supernatural imaginary being. He is also heavily biased toward his Christian-centric world views and does not have the humility to understand that his worldview is wrong. Again he quotes from his story book to provide insight into his rote theistic background. With his "logic" not playing an instrument is actually playing an instrument.

Its good that the majority of his kind is fading away - but not all are strong and able to stand on their own two feet, and like Habit7 some rely on it for support. If it makes you sleep better at night so be it, but your religion be it whatever you may follow - applies to only you and not all of mankind.

[York]

WTH...Naresh post words!!!

[Kewell35]

anyone notices that the china/russia and surprisingly iran alliance is growing?

King of east is forming before our very eyes.

King of the south is already well underway with egypt and saudi arabia, oman and the uae and others in alliance.

dude there was a russian/iranian alliance (with china at times) since the 80s.

[bluesclues]

I never study religion to get morals. I study religion to find the truth. About the universe and about super powers. Got both. Understand the universe operation, man's quantum life source, time travel, wormholes and portals and singularity in general. Have no more questions about life. Understand my ancient ancestors. Understand the path of evolution. And am at peace in life.

That is what i wanted. One day u all will know what it is to live life without having any real questions about the mystery of life because u understand it all. And by you i mean, other human beings but probably not you guys in this lifetime. Man, one day will understand and know what we know without question. I - Illuminati have achieved the next step in human evolution from studying religion. So to who think they know better than everyone else and have no time for that... is really.. none of my business. I respect your freedom of choice. Something religion has taught me.

Now i am not in any way religious. The rituals humans practice have little to no value to me, only meaning. A meaning which i understand together with its purpose. Some are searching, some dont care to search. But i have no time to argue with anyone anymore about beliefs this and beliefs that. Regardless of what one believes, the truth will be what it is. So ur arguing about whether it is or is not actually has no bearing.. even if u win the argument.. u could still be wrong.. and just die in delusion, believing in illusion.

Me now i am free. Completely free of the burdens of life and of death. They are insignificant. I do what i wilt as i see fit for my progression. Those who want to stay can stay. But. i have told u the truth. This is hell. U are imprisoned here and being punished by the very devil u try to escape. The devil, the monster inside you that makes u unworthy to witness the truth of your own creation. That you are denied being a God because u are too inexperienced and undeserving of power. So u have been made here, in and under restriction. Capping your power because it is known garuntee that you will misuse and abuse it as human beings towards selfishness. Mostly horrible with a side of 'im trying my best'.

So u are put in this world where you will learn of cause and effect, and where selfishness only acts as a temporary self reward that is later taken away from you as you are punished, individually and collectively. None can take that isnt taken back. A price is always paid. The environment is our own creation, and we contribute to its degredation and loss dont watch face. Pain is shared here and none escape, save for the illuminated. Whom u do not even know exist, and how, or how true. So much so that i can make this post in these words, and still you would be guessing to figure whether im telling the truth or not.

No red man with horns but your own hand holding a whip and cursing your backside. The self flagellation a thing of concerted effort. Those who whip and try to dodge their own coming upon, and those who position themselves to be whipped to absorb the force of justice and retalliation that restores balance to the world of pleasure and pain. But brings them greater favour though unseen by the external observer. All the cowards hide. And the idealist they dream of a heaven on earth that wont come until u have all the answers to the questions that keep u awake at night. What if, and how does, for failures sake and my rotting body in the ground, does anything come after this. But more of this. And more, until you get it. And become the tourniquet, taken as an opportunity among opportunists who deal in the present day and the present hour for fear to address the question. The question they must rush to find an answer when they are 70, not knowing or being any closer to knowing. The experience, the ever evading evidence of a thing called nothing that is said to exist.

Good luck is all i can wish both to those hard of hearing and those of the aspirant seeker. The beginning is your end, and your end is the beginning, and no logic will have you escape a circular existence. Which is illogical in itself. For defiance sake are you able to defy what you deny. And what sort of rebel has played into the hands of his puppetmaster? You are not free, and you will never be free until you understand. Suffering will increase the more u preserve self at cost of more than one. The dominos will be stacked against you, and who can stop the train a comin when the first block falls?

Sieze the pandemonium because it is a more eventful life than the boredom of an empathized civilization. So uneventful is it that we must compete till detriment and beyond. While all the fallen soldiers float out to sea, and are expended by the wayside, for what? Your glorious and yet temporary human pride.

[Habit7]

Most people who read these holy books in search of morals usually already have better morals than the book they are reading.
Think about it , if you really didn't know right from wrong, you would have no problem following Deuteronomy in its entirety. Instead they read it and nit pick through it, picking out whatever they like and ignoring the rest.
Certain people.... one of who's name may or may not rhyme with rabbit, will have no problem saying that gays are bad, after all the bible says so, but is against stoning a woman to death on her father's doorstep for not being a virgin on her wedding night ,in spite of it being in the bible.
The point it this ...This rabbit guy has better morals than the book he claims to get his morals from.

Rabbit ....I mean habit ....if I am misrepresenting you stance on gay men please set me straight.....get it.
But seriously if I am mistaken about you and you are actually a big supporter of the gay rights movement please let your voice be heard .

Well just like how you are unable to account for laws of logic in an atheistic worldview, you are unable to account for the moral standard to which you want to hold the Bible to. You as a 21st century Westerner with your inherent Judeo-Christian values is critical of the 14th century BC Jewish laws which were formative to your morals today.

If you were an atheist in 14 the century BC Palestine, on what moral standard would you say those Mosaic laws were wrong? Would you appeal to forgiveness, grace and other Christian morals? If a father murders his daughter then, what atheistic moral law that is universal to him and you is he breaking? If I remember, we started off here and you were unable to give a consistent answer and thus jump to another issue, so we are back to it again. Nevertheless you are proving your ignorance of the Bible because for 2000 years Christian morality dealt consistently with the Mosaic laws seemingly unknown to you, but internet atheists like yourself think you have a slam dunk argument when you only show that you don't know the Bible and you have to appeal to Judeo-Christian morals to prove that Judeo-Christian morals are wrong.
viewtopic.php?p=9015549#p9015549

Habit7 seems to think that his opinions are facts. It can be shown by Habit 7 that any argument can be twisted for ones favour by laying claim in a supernatural imaginary being. He is also heavily biased toward his Christian-centric world views and does not have the humility to understand that his worldview is wrong. Again he quotes from his story book to provide insight into his rote theistic background. With his "logic" not playing an instrument is actually playing an instrument.

Its good that the majority of his kind is fading away - but not all are strong and able to stand on their own two feet, and like Habit7 some rely on it for support. If it makes you sleep better at night so be it, but your religion be it whatever you may follow - applies to only you and not all of mankind.

Well I am waiting on a cogent argument from you refuting the facts that support my opinion and proof that my worldview is wrong. Also you seem unable to understand your view is also your opinion and what you believe you think it applies to all mankind, even me and think that "the majority of my kind" is wrong and you are happy we are fading away. However Dawkins thinks that it is bad that we are fading away in Europe
http://www.breitbart.com/national-secur ... ing-worse/

And actually it the atheists and non affiliated who are projected to decline
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20 ... opulation/

[crock101]

Habit..
You are using words, that on their own mean something and putting them together into sentences that have no meaning.
I know that to you ,the things you are saying make sense,but to most rational people here on earth you just sound like a person in the middle of a mental breakdown.
For this reason, I don't see any reason to continue arguing with you,the most I can offer is my help in finding you a suitable mental health professional .
How can I be expected to present evidence to someone who doesn't accept evidence,how can I use logical arguments against someone who doesn't accept logic.there is nothing to be gained here.
After all you watched that John Lennox video and was impressed, all I saw was a man lying through his teeth and contradicting himself.

[Habit7]

Try to reach the apex, so far you are not going beyond the rung.

[megadoc1]

ppl dont follow their religion...they follow their pastors, pundits, imams.......judging from what i have heard none of those religious leaders tell their congregation what their book says except the imam.....

who told you this? or how did you come to such conclusion? last time I checked ,this was a comment made towards the adherents of the Hindu religion

[crock101]

Boxeater has a point ,from what I have seen, imams are usually more likely to dispense with the niceties and give a literal reading of the quran.
In my experience pundits and priests often try to offer an interpretation of the scripture to make it a bit more palatable to a modern audience, which often leads to people who have not read it themselves to still not know what that book actually says. This is just from my experience, I could be very wrong on this.

[crock101]

It might be possible to get something from nothing. When matter meets antimatter they cancel each other out leaving "nothing". It is being proposed that mathematically the equation can be applied in reverse ,so as to get something from nothing.

http://ns.umich.edu/new/releases/8167

[abducted]

http://m.guardian.co.tt/columnist/2016- ... ces-nation

Kevin Baldeosingh

Righteousness is the enemy of compassion.

If you have not done so, find the video of Port-of-Spain mayor Raymond Tim Kee and look at it. Print reports do not sufficiently convey the moral certitude with which he linked the murder of Japanese pan player Asami Nagakiya with women’s Carnival vulgarity. You have to see his posturing, hear his hands rap the desk as he spoke dismissively about women being able to enjoy Carnival without wining. To see his self-righteous attitude is to understand how he could make such dotish and insensitive remarks: for when a person believes they are absolutely right, they become incapable of seeing other people as having rights. And such moral certitude is always rooted in religion or ideology.

What has passed unremarked, of course, is that Tim Kee was echoing word for word the same Carnival criticisms continually made by religious leaders. These religious spokesmen also link sexual freedom, from wining to sex outside marriage, with rape and murder and even a declining economy. The only difference is that Tim Kee didn’t make a general statement, but linked these same moral criticisms to a specific individual who had been murdered.

Science writer Matt Ridley in his book The Origins of Virtue notes: “Religious teaching...has almost always emphasised the difference between the in-group and the out-group: us versus them; Israelite and Philistine; Jew and Gentile; saved and damned; believer and heathen...Religion teaches its adherents that they are a chosen race and their nearest rivals are benighted fools or even sub-humans.” This applies equally to political ideologies such as socialism and gender (not equity) feminism, which co-opt religious psychology.

This, I suspect, is why Prime Minister Keith Rowley immediately dismissed any suggestion of dismissing Tim Kee: after all, Dr Rowley hues to the same moral perspective as the PoS mayor, having suggested on the campaign trail that unmarried pregnant teachers should not be allowed into classrooms. Both men’s trivialising of the murder is shown by their concern over the “embarrassment” caused by Nagakiya’s murder to the capital city and the country.

Nearly all of our public figures pay at least lip service to religious beliefs. In the present Parliament, there is not one MP who affirmed their oath rather than swearing on a holy book. But religion’s fundamental failing is the very reason for its success: by providing absolute rules of belief and behaviour, religion relieves the individual of the need to reason morally. This is why believers can commit rape and murder and other atrocities while feeling entirely justified: the Bible and Q’uran and Bhagavadgita make it clear that morality applies only to the believer. Hence the reason Jehovah approved genocide and Islamists can argue that raping non-Muslim women is sanctioned by Allah.

Consider this quote from one of history’s best known leaders: “Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air...we need believing people.” This was Adolf Hitler arranging a concordat with the Vatican in 1933.

Such absolute certainty underlies much of the world’s evils. In her book Being Wrong, journalist Kathryn Schulz notes that “Many moral wrongs and supported and legitimised by factual errors...Often our beliefs about what is factually right and our beliefs about what is morally right are entirely inextricable...In daily life, we use ‘wrong’ to refer to both error and iniquity: it is wrong to think that the Earth is flat, and it is also wrong to push your little brother down the stairs...moral and intellectual wrongness are connected not by mere linguistic coincidence but by a long history of associating error with evil—and, conversely, rightness with righteousness.”

This, and not stupidity, is why religious believers continue to insist that the Earth is six thousand years old and not four billion years, and that human beings were created instead of evolving from apes. It is also why socialists ignore the irrefutable historical and economic fact that socialism is an unworkable political system, and why gender feminists insist that patriarchy is a real conspiracy by men to oppress all women.

“Certainty is lethal to two of our most redeeming and humane qualities, imagination and empathy,” writes Schulz. In science and ethics, facts and morality rest on evidence and logic. The opposite is the case with religious beliefs and morality. This is one reason why, in all societies, more religiosity correlates with more violence and economic stagnation, while secularism is matched by lower crime, corruption and greater prosperity.

Psychologists Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson in their book Mistakes were Made (but Not by Me) write: “The scientific method consists of the use of procedures designed to show not that our predictions and hypotheses are right, but that they might be wrong. Scientific reasoning is useful to anyone in any job because it makes us face the possibility, even the dire reality, that we were mistaken...At its core, therefore, science is a form of arrogance control.”

Ours is a society in dire need of science.

Kevin Baldeosingh is a professional writer, author of three novels, and co-author of a history textbook.

[nareshseep]

Imam priest pastor pundit all are the same. What's ize say is true... because it is in a book.