The Religion Discussion

[nareshseep]

Openly Secular Project

[ruffneck_12]

For God so loved the world,that he gave his only son, and whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

so if a man grow up in the bush alone and never hear bout god... he gonna perish?

[Habit7]

On the topic of morals, what I was trying to get at before the establishment of the various religions is that even if the Muslim Hindu and Christian religion was created or not there would have been a collective agreement on the customs and ways on how everyone should live there life. There is no bible Koran or gita accessible to some remote tribes that have not made contact with the external world. Yet these folks do not gravitate to leader worship.

Romans 2:1-5
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Roman 2:12-16
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

For those religions without the true revelation of God within the Bible, God has given them a conscience no matter how skewed. God will judge them according to their conscience.

[nareshseep]

On the topic of morals, what I was trying to get at before the establishment of the various religions is that even if the Muslim Hindu and Christian religion was created or not there would have been a collective agreement on the customs and ways on how everyone should live there life. There is no bible Koran or gita accessible to some remote tribes that have not made contact with the external world. Yet these folks do not gravitate to leader worship.

Romans 2:1-5
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Roman 2:12-16
For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

For those religions without the true revelation of God within the Bible, God has given them a conscience no matter how skewed. God will judge them according to their conscience.

Wait wait... man bring proof from a book and say look it dey... it in the book it must be true....
The ole people say sense make before book... ah tink some ah dem fall from the Tree ah life and hit every branch on the way down and then fall on dey head.... but doh fret it have a book to guide yuh.... everything is real eg Santa, Papa Bois, Dog, Zeus, Peter Pan, Spiderman ....etc.. yuh ketch mih drift.... (Have to change them tyres now)

If they want to say that true leh dey go back in Jerusalem and live... In the meanwhile mih go run around naked with mih bow and arrow and live with nature.. eat mih fish from the sea and hunt mih gouti and basically frolic..... til the caribs decide to launch ah attack for we tail and we hadda fight..

[zoom rader]

Dozens of Christians 'including women and children' are arrested in Saudi Arabia after tip-off to state's Islamist police force

28 people were arrested at home of Indian man in the eastern city of Khafji
Reports claim women and children were among the congregation
Human rights activists have appealed to the U.S. to help secure release
In Saudi Arabia it is against the law for Muslims to abandon their faith

By Matthew Blake for MailOnline
Published: 08:57 GMT, 15 September 2014 | Updated: 11:25 GMT, 15 September 2014


Islamist police in Saudi Arabia have stormed a Christian prayer meeting and arrested its entire congregation, including women and children, and confiscated their bibles, it has been reported.

The raid was the latest incident of a swingeing crackdown on religious minorities in Saudi Arabia by the country's hard-line Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice.

The 28 Christians were said to be worshipping at the home of an Indian national in the eastern city of Khafji, when the police entered the building and took them into custody. They have not been seen or heard from since, raising concerns among human rights groups as to their whereabouts.

Nina Shea, director of the Washington-based Hudson Institute's Center for Religious Freedom, told FoxNews.com: 'Saudi Arabia is continuing the religious cleansing that has always been its official policy.

'It is the only nation state in the world with the official policy of banning all churches.

'This is enforced even though there are over two million Christian foreign workers in that country. Those victimized are typically poor, from Asian and African countries with weak governments.'

Activists are now calling on the U.S. to use its considerable influence in the region to help secure the release of the incarcerated Christians.

A spokesperson for the Saudi government claimed to have no knowledge of the arrests, according to Fox News.

But the English-language newspaper, The Saudi Gazette, as well as several Saudi Arabic-language news outlets, have reported on the arrests.

Arabic-language news channel, Akhbar 24, said the arrests came after the Kingdom's religious police got a tip about a home-based church.

The report also reported that 'distorted writings of the Bible were found and musical instruments, noting their referral to the jurisdictional institutions.'

At least 3.5 million Christians live in the Gulf Arab region, mostly Catholic workers from India and the Philippines.

In Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, it is against the law for Muslims to abandon their faith, a practice known as apostasy. Proselytising for other religions or practising them openly is also illegal.

Judges have considerable leeway in how to interpret the kingdom's Sharia code of Islamic law and are not bound by sentencing guidelines or a system of precedent. Both capital and corporal punishment are legal.

Last year King Abdullah, who has promoted limited reforms since coming to the throne in 2005, opened a centre for religious dialogue in Vienna that drew criticism because of Saudi Arabia's own lack of religious freedom. In 2008 he sponsored an inter-faith conference in Spain.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... force.html

Nothing wrong there, It Saudi Law and Christians should learn to obey them.

[Habit7]

Well in the same way we sanction other countries for lesser human rights violations, the Saudi oil reserves shouldn't exclude them from facing the same accountability for freedom of religion.

[Habit7]

Wait wait... man bring proof from a book and say look it dey... it in the book it must be true....
The ole people say sense make before book... ah tink some ah dem fall from the Tree ah life and hit every branch on the way down and then fall on dey head.... but doh fret it have a book to guide yuh.... everything is real eg Santa, Papa Bois, Dog, Zeus, Peter Pan, Spiderman ....etc.. yuh ketch mih drift.... (Have to change them tyres now)

If they want to say that true leh dey go back in Jerusalem and live... In the meanwhile mih go run around naked with mih bow and arrow and live with nature.. eat mih fish from the sea and hunt mih gouti and basically frolic..... til the caribs decide to launch ah attack for we tail and we hadda fight..

What does it matter you in your worldview. Aren't we all just insignificant coalescences of stardust who are all quickly marching towards annihilation?

Where you get your human significance?

[Chimera]

Dozens of Christians 'including women and children' are arrested in Saudi Arabia after tip-off to state's Islamist police force

28 people were arrested at home of Indian man in the eastern city of Khafji
Reports claim women and children were among the congregation
Human rights activists have appealed to the U.S. to help secure release
In Saudi Arabia it is against the law for Muslims to abandon their faith

By Matthew Blake for MailOnline
Published: 08:57 GMT, 15 September 2014 | Updated: 11:25 GMT, 15 September 2014


Islamist police in Saudi Arabia have stormed a Christian prayer meeting and arrested its entire congregation, including women and children, and confiscated their bibles, it has been reported.

The raid was the latest incident of a swingeing crackdown on religious minorities in Saudi Arabia by the country's hard-line Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice.

The 28 Christians were said to be worshipping at the home of an Indian national in the eastern city of Khafji, when the police entered the building and took them into custody. They have not been seen or heard from since, raising concerns among human rights groups as to their whereabouts.

Nina Shea, director of the Washington-based Hudson Institute's Center for Religious Freedom, told FoxNews.com: 'Saudi Arabia is continuing the religious cleansing that has always been its official policy.

'It is the only nation state in the world with the official policy of banning all churches.

'This is enforced even though there are over two million Christian foreign workers in that country. Those victimized are typically poor, from Asian and African countries with weak governments.'

Activists are now calling on the U.S. to use its considerable influence in the region to help secure the release of the incarcerated Christians.

A spokesperson for the Saudi government claimed to have no knowledge of the arrests, according to Fox News.

But the English-language newspaper, The Saudi Gazette, as well as several Saudi Arabic-language news outlets, have reported on the arrests.

Arabic-language news channel, Akhbar 24, said the arrests came after the Kingdom's religious police got a tip about a home-based church.

The report also reported that 'distorted writings of the Bible were found and musical instruments, noting their referral to the jurisdictional institutions.'

At least 3.5 million Christians live in the Gulf Arab region, mostly Catholic workers from India and the Philippines.

In Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, it is against the law for Muslims to abandon their faith, a practice known as apostasy. Proselytising for other religions or practising them openly is also illegal.

Judges have considerable leeway in how to interpret the kingdom's Sharia code of Islamic law and are not bound by sentencing guidelines or a system of precedent. Both capital and corporal punishment are legal.

Last year King Abdullah, who has promoted limited reforms since coming to the throne in 2005, opened a centre for religious dialogue in Vienna that drew criticism because of Saudi Arabia's own lack of religious freedom. In 2008 he sponsored an inter-faith conference in Spain.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... force.html

Nothing wrong there, It Saudi Law and Christians should learn to obey them.

if they were real christians, Jesus would have protected them.

he abandon them normal normal, he probably call in the tip himself

[nareshseep]

Wait wait... man bring proof from a book and say look it dey... it in the book it must be true....
The ole people say sense make before book... ah tink some ah dem fall from the Tree ah life and hit every branch on the way down and then fall on dey head.... but doh fret it have a book to guide yuh.... everything is real eg Santa, Papa Bois, Dog, Zeus, Peter Pan, Spiderman ....etc.. yuh ketch mih drift.... (Have to change them tyres now)

If they want to say that true leh dey go back in Jerusalem and live... In the meanwhile mih go run around naked with mih bow and arrow and live with nature.. eat mih fish from the sea and hunt mih gouti and basically frolic..... til the caribs decide to launch ah attack for we tail and we hadda fight..

What does it matter you in your worldview. Aren't we all just insignificant coalescences of stardust who are all quickly marching towards annihilation?

Where you get your human significance?

You assume thats the thinking of all folks who don't believe in your imaginary dog. Some folks appreciate life as it is. Some folks believe in doing good without a reward of salvation at the end of their life.
I don't need a book to tell me of my human significance. We are all born with reason, a knowing of our own significance. ... Does a bird climb trees .... Does a monkey fly... Does a lion kill? .. We know what is right from wrong. Now if what you are saying ... that if wasn't for that book that was written by men who hallucinated after consuming shrooms that you get your significance from ... Well I think we have bigger problems. You are free to believe in your imaginary God.

[Habit7]

if they were real christians, Jesus would have protected them.

Where do you get your definition of real Christians? The Bible says quite the opposite for real Christians: "2 Timothy 3:12 Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted"
The more these atheistic and Islamic countries persecute Christians, the more they flourish. It happened from as early as in the Roman Empire and it will continue to happen again.

"...the blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church..." Church Father Tertullian, 2nd century AD

You assume thats the thinking of all folks who don't believe in your imaginary dog. Some folks appreciate life as it is. Some folks believe in doing good without a reward of salvation at the end of their life.
I don't need a book to tell me of my human significance. We are all born with reason, a knowing of our own significance. ... Does a bird climb trees .... Does a monkey fly... Does a lion kill? .. We know what is right from wrong. Now if what you are saying ... that if wasn't for that book that was written by men who hallucinated after consuming shrooms that you get your significance from ... Well I think we have bigger problems. You are free to believe in your imaginary God.

How are you so sure that your reasoning of right and wrong or even significance is not just as imaginary as my God whom I believe in?

Science has shown that pedophiles and serial murders may be born with a reasoning that what they do is right. Who are you to determine that your reason is right over theirs?

[Slartibartfast]

Interesting... Very interesting. I will like to see how this develops.

http://www.simonsfoundation.org/quanta/20140921-big-bang-signal-could-all-be-dust-planck-says/

[stev]

my apologies if this was posted before, it's kind of hard to keep track in this thread (for me) with all the nonsense people posting.

1500 Year Old Bible Claims Jesus Christ Was Not Crucified – Vatican Shocked



This discovery turns modern Christianity on its head! This bible, dating as far back as 2,000 years, details the Gospel of Barnabas, a disciple of Jesus Christ, which shows that Jesus wasn't actually crucified and doesn't claim him to be the son of God, but instead a prophet. The book charges that Apostle Paul was “The Impostor.” The story is completely different. In the Book of Barnabas, Jesus wasn't crucified, but ascended to heaven alive, and Judas Iscariot was crucified instead.

The National Turk issued a report saying that the bible was seized from smugglers is a Mediterranean operation. The report states the gang was charged with smuggling a variety of things, such as antiques, illegal excavations and even explosives. The book is valued at around $28 million. That's quite the find! Experts and Authorities in Tehran insist that the book is authentic. It's written in gold lettering on loosely tied leather in Aramaic, the language of Christ.

There are connections that can be drawn between this text and Islam, and it directly contradicts the New Testament's teaching. In it, Jesus also predicts the birth of Prophet Muhammed, who founded Islam 700 years later.

Experts believe that during the Council of Nicea, the Catholic Church went through and hand picked the gospels that form what we know the bible to be today and omitted the Gospel of Barnabas (among others) in favor of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. These original texts surfaced over time, and this new discovery is especially worrying to the Catholic church. So what does this mean for religions derived of Christianity? It's a bit of a predicament. The Vatican has asked Turkish authorities to allow them access to the book for examination. The big question is: will they accept it as evidence, deny its validity, or call it a “Muslim lie” as “Truth” Magazine did in 2000?

To many people, this book is seen as a cause for hope. But what does this mean for atheists? Is it a real text or a hoax? And does it even really matter? With any luck, this newly discovered text will force theologians to ask deeper questions about their faiths instead of believing it without thinking. Only time will tell. In the meantime, keep an open mind, be respectful of the beliefs of others, and remember that it's our responsibility to take care of one another and this place we call home.


Just one of the many sources on the web:

http://higherperspective.com/2014/05/15 ... pzTRpj7.01


was kinda funny seeing how a lot of people on websites / forums trying to use science to prove this is false. lol

[bluesclues]

im not a document verificatorizor, but i can analyse based on my knowledge and the contents of the book. from what i read about it, muslims cling to the book because it quotes jesus saying he is not the messiah. yet Allah himself calls him the messiah in surah 4 of the quran.

furthermore let me add some spice in the mix. the names we have to deal with here are judas becoming the star of the crucifixion and barnabus doing the writing, an associate of paul and ananias of damascus.

following the story of paul u find out he persecuted and murdered christians relentlessly all while jesus was alive and then proported himself to become a convert having received revelation from God in mystic converse. however it is clear to me to see from this little clique that they are the band responsible for betraying Christ. paul and judas conspired against jesus and used trickery to make some feel they were anointed by God. paul later after jesus' death jumps up as the most jesus loving person all of a sudden and seeking political power by preaching jesus words which he stole and contradicts jesus directly by saying a few things which oppose jesus' view but help to further and strengthen his power in his political career. i see paul as a liar who consorted with judas to betray jesus and considering the region they were hanging about, they were muslims(arab jews) who refused to accept and believe christ was the messiah and son of God. paul is an impostor to the church of christ after christ's death.

muslims in this region would be those following Moses' law. or Musa's law. the 10 commandments. though they would probably not yet be calling themselves muslim. so it was really different factions of jews banding together against believing christ was the messiah and son of God. then christ pops up and they dont want noone stopping them from the pleasure of stoning adulterers etc. thus now they still live by all the old laws.

i would have to agree, that the gospel of barnabas is a fake or an outright fabricated document by barnabus etc. the fact of the matter is muslims have nothing to cling to in the GOB because the quran clearly states that Jesus was taken up into heaven. so we are not facing an issue with substitution of judas dying in place of jesus when God sent Jesus to die here. to understand you have to understand God vibes.

the quran says, jesus wasnt crucified but his likeness was crucified. some translations of the quran have inserted 'another man' into the text but the original arabic does not say that. and as i said that cannot be because then both christianity and islam could get dismantled if God didnt send his son here to die on the cross as confirmed in both bible and quran in surah 19.

the vibes with God is this. this world is not REAL life. real life to God is the eternal life in the spirit. so to truly kill jesus, when his body dies his spirit would also have to die. this is referred to as second death, or as in ancient cultures like egypt, basically if u die in spirit after physical death, you dont make it into the after life. this what all living are warned about. believing in the flesh. jesus was born in spirit before gaining a human body. so that is the real jesus. his likeness is only his body which he sacrificed in what the buddhists call.. ego death. ego death taverses one into spiritual existence. in this case, when jesus' body/ego died, his living spirit was taken up to Allah. thus 'they did not kill him' any more than caligula can kill poseidon by ordering his army to stab at the seawater with their spears.

so the gospel of barnabas can be a fake document in that it was not written by barnabas or it could be wrriten by barnabas and be an outright lie considering the company he was keeping who were no real friends of Jesus.

just in case you ask me to confirm. the answer is no.. i do no believe paul was chosen by God and consider him a fraud.

[RBphoto]

im not a document verificatorizor, but i can analyse based on my knowledge and the contents of the book. from what i read about it, muslims cling to the book because it quotes jesus saying he is not the messiah. yet Allah himself calls him the messiah in surah 4 of the quran.

So them Muslims on Shiite then?

[bluesclues]

im not a document verificatorizor, but i can analyse based on my knowledge and the contents of the book. from what i read about it, muslims cling to the book because it quotes jesus saying he is not the messiah. yet Allah himself calls him the messiah in surah 4 of the quran.

So them Muslims on Shiite then?

shiite - is a muslim faction. followers of the first imam under prophet muhammad. so that answer would be yes lol

but yes any muslim that detracts from belief in christ as the messenger/messiah is not doing well. any muslim that opposes christ or persecutes his followers is not a muslim by the knowledge and instruction handed to them.

there are various muslim sects and they differ amongst eachother in beliefs and teachings. some respect and acknowledge jesus as the messiah. others will ride anything that supports their opposition of the power of christ and his title among the divine family making him the most supreme prophet. even if it contradicts their own quranic teaching. that is the part where they use permission to lie to spread islam and shutdown any attempts at a thorough questioning on topics that raise contradiction for new recruits.

hidden underneath it all, is about politics and brainwashing for a materialistic and barbaric section. peaceful muslims recognize christians as their brothers under a new covenant made with God for that people and dont have any such quarrels regarding interfaith tolerance between chistians and muslims.

[DJ]

Muslims always on Shiite.......and Shiite always on Muslims.

[ruffneck_12]

how much times I hadda say this boy?


HAIL SATIN

Bow down to the all mighty infinite thread count

[Slartibartfast]

hail satan

dai all I hadda say

yuh sure that's all yuh hadda say?

nah, I saving the rest for a rainy day

how much times I hadda say this boy?


HAIL SATIN

Bow down to the all mighty infinite thread count

So you done talking now or what? It raining for the past two days straight.

Btw, if I was you I would forget about Satin. I mean it's nice but silk is the way to go. Much kinder to your nether regions.

[ruffneck_12]

I don't like silk too much, I think of those slimy worms when I touch silk

and nah I not done talking, I getting ready to go in POS right now to preach the word of Satan. vybz meh in city gate by the powermint lady

[sçum]

^That right there is the result when ppl that cant afford car come on a automotive website to giv they views

[ruffneck_12]

What does a discussion on religion have to do with an automotive website though?

[Habit7]

therefore the purpose of Christianity is for everyone to become a Christian? I got that correct?

Yes.

Not that "If all the world had the same Christian worldview that you (Habit7) has"




BTW these are the militant atheists

those leaders did not rule in the name of atheism though. They had people follow their social and political agenda part of which did not put God and state together. They just happened to be atheists or agnostic or just plain narcissists.

If you're saying Kim Jong Il or Castro have killed in the name of atheism then we might as well say Charles Manson killed or planned to kill in the name of Scientology.

Isis is killing in the name of Islam - that is what they claim anyway.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Karl Marx (second from the left, bottom row) said “Communism begins from the outset with atheism.”

While you say "they had people follow their social and political agenda part of which did not put God and state together" it is a tepid view of the reality that from their atheism, flowed their communism which not just didn't put God and state together, it actively pursued the goal of forcefully eradicating religion and persecuting all its adherents.

If you think the reason why Kim Jong Il, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, et al persecuted of the religious and the fact that they "happened to be atheist" are not correlated, then you need to tell us what colour is the sky in the world you are living in.

This is not to say that all atheists are militant and actively seek to persecute the church á la ISIS, but there remains no moral restriction inherent in atheism for them not to.

you said

I think a lot of these Western Muslim groups distance themselves from the means but are willing to accept the results.

but you agree the purpose of Christianity is for everyone to become a Christian. So they want to same result as you, but for their own religion. Granted I am sure you would not accept those means today, but 1000 years ago it would have been acceptable by most?

No.

2000 yrs ago, when Christianity started, resulting from the brutal execution of their leader, followed by the ruthless persecution of the apostles and earliest converts who wrote the Bible under inspiration, the means by which anyone was to come to faith in Christ was not like the forceful means of their Roman oppressors, but by the “folly of preaching” 1 Corinthians 1:21. Whatever anyone else did 1000 yrs later besides what was outlined in Bible, is not Christian.

This Christian method is diametrically opposed to Islam in which one of last Surahs of Mohammed before he died where he commands: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Surah 9:29

Again if you cannot see how different those worldviews are then then you need to tell us what colour is the sky in the world you are living in.

[nareshseep]

[Groovemaster]

http://www.islamicconcern.com/sacrifice01.asp

"Islam, however, broke away from this longstanding tradition of appeasing an "angry God" and instead demanded personal sacrifice and submission as the only way to die before death and reach "Fana" or "extinction in Allah." The notion of "vicarious atonement of sin" (absolving one's sins through the blood of another) is nowhere to be found in the Qur'an. Neither is the idea of gaining favor by offering the life of another to God. In Islam, all that is demanded as a sacrifice is one's personal willingness to submit one's ego and individual will to Allah. ".

That is to say, the underlying implication of Islam's attitude toward ritual slaughter is not that of blood atonement, or seeking favor with God through another's death, but rather, the act of thanking God for one's sustenance and the personal sacrifice of sharing one's possessions and valuable food with one's fellow humans. The ritual itself is NOT the sacrifice. It is merely a method of killing where the individuals kill as quickly as possible and acknowledge that only Allah has the right to take a life and that they do so as a humble member of Allah's creation in need of sustenance just like every other species in Allah's creation.

*"In them: in cattle or animals offered for sacrifice. It is quite true that they were useful in many ways to humans ,e.g., camels in desert countries are useful as mounts or for carrying burdens or for giving milk, and so, for horses and oxen; and camels and oxen are also good for meat, and camel's hair can be woven into cloth; goats and sheep also yield milk and meat, and hair or wool. But if they are used for sacrifice, they become symbols by which people show that they are willing to give up some of their own benefits for the sake of satisfying the needs of their poorer brethren."

So which Muslim brother going to give up their car

[maj. tom]

mmmm looks so delicious

[Habit7]

[youtube]P0A_iF1B3k0[youtube]

An equal video can be done for each group represented there (even those that overlap) where they are the protagonist and an atheist is just one of the crowd of opinions.

It is just your opinion vs. everyone else's. Either everyone is wrong or everyone is wrong with one person right. By what standard are you the right one?

[RBphoto]

Atheism is an opinion based on lack of evidence. Theism is an opinion based on face evidence. Which do you prefer?

[AdamB]

http://www.islamicconcern.com/sacrifice01.asp

"Islam, however, broke away from this longstanding tradition of appeasing an "angry God" and instead demanded personal sacrifice and submission as the only way to die before death and reach "Fana" or "extinction in Allah." The notion of "vicarious atonement of sin" (absolving one's sins through the blood of another) is nowhere to be found in the Qur'an. Neither is the idea of gaining favor by offering the life of another to God. In Islam, all that is demanded as a sacrifice is one's personal willingness to submit one's ego and individual will to Allah. ".

That is to say, the underlying implication of Islam's attitude toward ritual slaughter is not that of blood atonement, or seeking favor with God through another's death, but rather, the act of thanking God for one's sustenance and the personal sacrifice of sharing one's possessions and valuable food with one's fellow humans. The ritual itself is NOT the sacrifice. It is merely a method of killing where the individuals kill as quickly as possible and acknowledge that only Allah has the right to take a life and that they do so as a humble member of Allah's creation in need of sustenance just like every other species in Allah's creation.

*"In them: in cattle or animals offered for sacrifice. It is quite true that they were useful in many ways to humans ,e.g., camels in desert countries are useful as mounts or for carrying burdens or for giving milk, and so, for horses and oxen; and camels and oxen are also good for meat, and camel's hair can be woven into cloth; goats and sheep also yield milk and meat, and hair or wool. But if they are used for sacrifice, they become symbols by which people show that they are willing to give up some of their own benefits for the sake of satisfying the needs of their poorer brethren."

So which Muslim brother going to give up their car

The dollar value of 2 bulls equals that of a car like B12 or B13....

[AdamB]

therefore the purpose of Christianity is for everyone to become a Christian? I got that correct?

Yes.

Not that "If all the world had the same Christian worldview that you (Habit7) has"




BTW these are the militant atheists

those leaders did not rule in the name of atheism though. They had people follow their social and political agenda part of which did not put God and state together. They just happened to be atheists or agnostic or just plain narcissists.

If you're saying Kim Jong Il or Castro have killed in the name of atheism then we might as well say Charles Manson killed or planned to kill in the name of Scientology.

Isis is killing in the name of Islam - that is what they claim anyway.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Karl Marx (second from the left, bottom row) said “Communism begins from the outset with atheism.”

While you say "they had people follow their social and political agenda part of which did not put God and state together" it is a tepid view of the reality that from their atheism, flowed their communism which not just didn't put God and state together, it actively pursued the goal of forcefully eradicating religion and persecuting all its adherents.

If you think the reason why Kim Jong Il, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, et al persecuted of the religious and the fact that they "happened to be atheist" are not correlated, then you need to tell us what colour is the sky in the world you are living in.

This is not to say that all atheists are militant and actively seek to persecute the church á la ISIS, but there remains no moral restriction inherent in atheism for them not to.

you said

I think a lot of these Western Muslim groups distance themselves from the means but are willing to accept the results.

but you agree the purpose of Christianity is for everyone to become a Christian. So they want to same result as you, but for their own religion. Granted I am sure you would not accept those means today, but 1000 years ago it would have been acceptable by most?

No.

2000 yrs ago, when Christianity started, resulting from the brutal execution of their leader, followed by the ruthless persecution of the apostles and earliest converts who wrote the Bible under inspiration, the means by which anyone was to come to faith in Christ was not like the forceful means of their Roman oppressors, but by the “folly of preaching” 1 Corinthians 1:21. Whatever anyone else did 1000 yrs later besides what was outlined in Bible, is not Christian.

This Christian method is diametrically opposed to Islam in which one of last Surahs of Mohammed before he died where he commands: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. Surah 9:29

Again if you cannot see how different those worldviews are then then you need to tell us what colour is the sky in the world you are living in.

1. ISIS are extremist and should be fought and STOPPED! So kudos to Kamla.

2. a. Did the jews at the time of Moses oppose the Egyptians when they were slaves under them?

b. Did the jews/christians 2000 yrs ago oppose the Romans? Did they pay taxes for living under Roman rule / protection?

c. Did the jews living in Nazi Germany oppose Hitler? Did they pay taxes for living under their rule?

d. OVER THE LAST 1435 YRS, HAS ANY NON-MUSLIMS LIVING UNDER MUSLIM RULE AND WHO HAVE PAID THEIR TAXES (JIZYA) BEEN NOT COMPENSATED BY HAVING PROTECTION BY THE MUSLIM STATE UNDER WHOM THEY LIVED?

[Habit7]

Why should non-Muslims live as second class citizens in a Muslim rule country?

You might call them protected, but the Quran calls for them to be humiliated and pay the jizya.

Christianity however calls for the equality of all citizens. If members of Muslim community chose to migrate to a non-Muslim state and had taxes imposed on them for being Muslim, how do you think that community would react?