The Religion Discussion

[maj. tom]

lol

[metalgear2095]

Matthew 6:1-4 ESV
“Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.


Galatians 6:9 ESV
And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.


1 Timothy 6:18 ESV
They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share,

James 2:26 ESV
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead. (Sounds like Habit7 is dead.)

Psalm 34:13-14 ESV
Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit. Turn away from evil and do good; seek peace and pursue it. (Coincides with the saying of Muhammad.)

Titus 3:14 ESV
And let our people learn to devote themselves to good works, so as to help cases of urgent need, and not be unfruitful.

James 2:24 ESV
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

What say you habit7? Does the bible agree with Muhammad?[color=#0000FF][/color]

Since the bible came before Muhammad wouldn't it make more sense that Muhammad agreed with the bible?

[Habit7]

Believers, time is limited for which every minute has to be accounted - find something better to do, increase your good deeds.

For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. Isaiah 64:6 circa 700 B.C.

If only Muhammad could have read that...well he still might have devised Islam but at least he would not have erroneously said that it was consistent with Judaism.

Increasing our good deeds is of no use if we are guilty before a just God for committing bad deeds prior. In order for God to forgive us we need the perfect righteousness of God in our account and for someone to suffer on our behalf the eternal wrath that we deserve. God has done this in man Jesus and our response should be repentance from our sin and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

In reference to what I first commented on from your post, I never said the good deeds /works are not necessary for a Christian. A Christians good works are acceptable to God because they have been redeemed by the work of Jesus, dying in their place and them being clothed in the righteousness of God. That is why Christians perform good works.

For a non-Christian like yourself, you are still guilty of your bad works. All attempts to cover your bad works with good works are no more efficacious than guilty criminal trying to lessen his sentence from a judge by promising to wash his car or mow his lawn. Justice must be served. That is why Isaiah says, all your righteous deeds are like a filthy garment to God.

For the Christian justice was served in Christ, for the non-Christian there is no propitiation, and God's standard is perfection not good outweighing bad.

[Habit7]

Lets take an organism that can produce several generations in in few hours, bacteria, you see evolution in bacteria every time you see a stronger or differently formulated antibiotic product on the market for the same bacterial species. Survival of the fitness, bacteria with mutations that allow those individuals to survive antibiotics and replicate, produce new strains that require a new formula or strength.- natural selection is what Darwin worked heavily on and is a major driving force in evolution theory.

This is a poor and overplayed example of evolution. The bacteria after several uncountable generations still remain bacteria. The mutation of the bacteria is not a gain of genetic information, but a loss or reshuffle of pre-existing genetic information. Bacteria macroevolution would be the bacteria not becoming new species but new kinds (eg. a complex multicellular organism), we just dont see that.

[AdamB]

Believers, time is limited for which every minute has to be accounted - find something better to do, increase your good deeds.

For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. Isaiah 64:6 circa 700 B.C.

If only Muhammad could have read that...well he still might have devised Islam but at least he would not have erroneously said that it was consistent with Judaism.

Increasing our good deeds is of no use if we are guilty before a just God for committing bad deeds prior. In order for God to forgive us we need the perfect righteousness of God in our account and for someone to suffer on our behalf the eternal wrath that we deserve. God has done this in man Jesus and our response should be repentance from our sin and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

In reference to what I first commented on from your post, I never said the good deeds /works are not necessary for a Christian. A Christians good works are acceptable to God because they have been redeemed by the work of Jesus, dying in their place and them being clothed in the righteousness of God. That is why Christians perform good works.

For a non-Christian like yourself, you are still guilty of your bad works. All attempts to cover your bad works with good works are no more efficacious than guilty criminal trying to lessen his sentence from a judge by promising to wash his car or mow his lawn. Justice must be served. That is why Isaiah says, all your righteous deeds are like a filthy garment to God.

For the Christian justice was served in Christ, for the non-Christian there is no propitiation, and God's standard is perfection not good outweighing bad.

Backpedalling...

You are entitled to your errant views and beliefs.

Isaiah was a prophet to the Jews, the people at the time who were following the "bible" (torah), not christians, not non-christians.

I am more of a christian than you...for I don't disbelieve in Jesus and understand what his true mission was, and more importantly...what it was not!

[Habit7]

No backpeddling here, if I am please point it out.

The Jews were saved the same way Christians are, by trusting in the Messiah. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=16800#p7564546

Believing in Jesus doesnt make you a Christian, in fact demons do better than you, they believe and shudder (James 2:19) Being a Christian along with first repenting of your sins and trusting in Christ, that trust entails believing Jesus when He says,"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" John 14:6. (That "I am" construction in the Greek is mirrors a statement only Yahweh makes)

By the earliest historical accounts in the Gospels, to even the heretical ones 200-300 years after, bears no reference of him confirming Islam

[New_SPECIES]

.....please don't refer me to wiki,or google. I want your views not their's.

If many of them leave this out... they would have no response!

When I was previously on this thread...
I discussed issues and explained/cleared up, wrongful assumptions from my mind using my own knowledge and my interpretations.

I did this for many to understand from a “Layman’s View”,
But some 2NRs try to win arguments with “big words” and endless “internet quotes” in an attempt to confuse others rather than laying things out “as they are”.

A clear understanding can never come from it and the average person can’t get a grasp.

For all those persons who think they know “what is what”...
Please try to use your own “brain” and explain things (interpretations) from what u know in your own mind.

Because if the person was face to face with you then, how would u quote from the internet?

Many of these “big talkers” and “quoters” can never sit in front me and carry out an intelligent/mature argument.
Especially since, when a question or issue is raised on a ched, men running to GOOGLE to look for a response!

How do you think people like Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen capture the attention of so many?

- Speak from their understanding, Explain in "Layman", Use Analogies, Occasional Logic...

[AdamB]

No backpeddling here, if I am please point it out.

The Jews were saved the same way Christians are, by trusting in the Messiah. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=267363&start=16800#p7564546

Believing in Jesus doesnt make you a Christian, in fact demons do better than you, they believe and shudder (James 2:19) Being a Christian along with first repenting of your sins and trusting in Christ, that trust entails believing Jesus when He says,"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me" John 14:6. (That "I am" construction in the Greek is mirrors a statement only Yahweh makes)

By the earliest historical accounts in the Gospels, to even the heretical ones 200-300 years after, bears no reference of him confirming Islam

You can continue to twist quotes from the bible translation in English to justify your polytheistic belief of GOD being 3 in 1. The fact is that the prophet Isaiah held a monotheistic belief, quite different from your "saved by grace" drama.

I will hold firm to hoping for the mercy / forgiveness of GOD and weighing of good and bad deeds. You do what you wish.

The entire religion of so-called "Christianity" are heretics when you look at what Jesus preached and practised. He was referring to you all when he said, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do."

[Habit7]

I love how you quoted the English Bible translation of Luke 23:34 in which is Jesus interceding for the Romans, who were torturing Him for the blasphemy of proclaiming that He was God. Which is a totally different context in which you are using it.

Also consider in Isaiah's monotheism, he prophesied that God would come as a man and save His people:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

[AdamB]

I love how you quoted the English Bible translation of Luke 23:34 in which is Jesus interceding for the Romans, who were torturing Him for the blasphemy of proclaiming that He was God. Which is a totally different context in which you are using it.

Also consider in Isaiah's monotheism, he prophesied that God would come as a man and save His people:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

I love how you limit the meaning of verses to "what you want it to mean".

I have said before, if you desire to worship a man, then do so. I certainly will not, no matter how you change, twist and turn the meaning of the verses of the bible.

Then why did the Jews not accept Jesus as messiah or GOD with open arms? He did not fit the description which they had with them in their scriptures. Now you come with YOUR interpretation to justify your polytheistic belief!

"I am the way, truth and the life" could apply to any true prophet of GOD, including Muhammad in whom you disbelieve. I've said it before, I don't disbelieve in any of the prophets, unlike you. Anyone who disbelieves in any ONE of the prophets, disbelieves in them ALL.

[AdamB]

I love how you quoted the English Bible translation of Luke 23:34 in which is Jesus interceding for the Romans, who were torturing Him for the blasphemy of proclaiming that He was God. Which is a totally different context in which you are using it.

Also consider in Isaiah's monotheism, he prophesied that God would come as a man and save His people:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

The Jews never believed in GOD having children. Bring your evidence that they did so, believed in a son-god...

[AdamB]

Judaism is based on a strict monotheism. This doctrine expresses the belief in one indivisible God. The worship of multiple gods (polytheism) and the concept of a Singular God having multiple persons (as in the doctrine of Trinity) are equally unimaginable in Judaism. The statement par excellence in terms of defining God is the Shema Yisrael, originally appearing in the Hebrew Bible: "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One", also translated as "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is unique/alone".[Deut. 6:4]

God is conceived of as eternal, the creator of the universe, and the source of morality. God has the power to intervene in the world. The term God thus corresponds to an actual ontological reality, and is not merely a projection of the human psyche. Maimonides describes God in this fashion: "The foundation of all foundations and the pillar of wisdom is to know that there is a Primary Being who brought into being all existence. All the beings of the heavens, the earth, and what is between them came into existence only from the truth of His being."[3]

Since all of existence emanates from God, whose ultimate existence is not dependent on anything else, some Jewish sages perceived God as interpenetrating the universe, which itself has been thought to be a manifestation of God's existence. In this way Judaism can be regarded as similar to being panentheistic, while always affirming genuine monotheism. The Hebrew Bible and classical rabbinic literature affirm theism and reject deism.[citation needed] However, in the writings of medieval Jewish philosophers such as Ibn Daud and Gersonides, perhaps influenced by neo-Aristotelian philosophy, one finds what can be termed limited omniscience.[4]

The idea of God as a duality or trinity is heretical in Judaism - it is considered akin to polytheism. "[God], the Cause of all, is one. This does not mean one as in one of series, nor one like a species (which encompasses many individuals), nor one as in an object that is made up of many elements, nor as a single simple object that is infinitely divisible. Rather, God is a unity unlike any other possible unity". This is referred to in the Torah: "Hear Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One".[Deut. 6:4][5]

While Jews hold that trinitarian conceptions of God are incorrect, there is a minority view which holds that non-Jews who maintain such beliefs are not held culpable.

[Habit7]

I love how you quoted the English Bible translation of Luke 23:34 in which is Jesus interceding for the Romans, who were torturing Him for the blasphemy of proclaiming that He was God. Which is a totally different context in which you are using it.

Also consider in Isaiah's monotheism, he prophesied that God would come as a man and save His people:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

I love how you limit the meaning of verses to "what you want it to mean".

I have said before, if you desire to worship a man, then do so. I certainly will not, no matter how you change, twist and turn the meaning of the verses of the bible.

Then why did the Jews not accept Jesus as messiah or GOD with open arms? He did not fit the description which they had with them in their scriptures. Now you come with YOUR interpretation to justify your polytheistic belief!

"I am the way, truth and the life" could apply to any true prophet of GOD, including Muhammad in whom you disbelieve. I've said it before, I don't disbelieve in any of the prophets, unlike you. Anyone who disbelieves in any ONE of the prophets, disbelieves in them ALL.

I am limiting the meaning of verses to their context, I hope that you do the same with the Quran.

You keep claiming that I am changing, twisting, turning the meanings of verses, yet you are offering no proof.

Some Jews did accept Him as Lord and God: the disciples/apostles, the early church and many others. But if you read Isaiah especially chapter 53 which outlines the birth, life and death of Christ 700yrs before it happened, chapter 53 is explained as a verbatim quote of what the Jews will say at the triumphant coming of Jesus when they remember how He was once with them but they rejected Him as the Messiah.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life" could not apply to any true prophet of God, as I said before in the original language of Greek, that 'I am' clause is a title reserved only for Yahweh/God (Exodus 3:14.). Furthermore considering the context Jesus is declaring His deity, in the verses 8-10 He is equating himself with the Father. God has come in the man Jesus, He has given us His Word, it was taught by His disciples/apostles and their helpers, at the death of the last apostle John, there are no more prophets.

Muhammad was no more of a prophet to Islam than Joseph Smith was a prophet to Mormons. Jesus several times warned of false prophets, because in the omniscience of God, He knew that several would come and pervert His established Word.

I love how you quoted the English Bible translation of Luke 23:34 in which is Jesus interceding for the Romans, who were torturing Him for the blasphemy of proclaiming that He was God. Which is a totally different context in which you are using it.

Also consider in Isaiah's monotheism, he prophesied that God would come as a man and save His people:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

The Jews never believed in GOD having children. Bring your evidence that they did so, believed in a son-god...

God did not have a son. The Son is eternal and coexisted with the Father before time.

Islam, in a demonstration that it not divine, misunderstands Christian doctrine that was firmly establish and propagated long before Muhammad was born in the 7th century, and fights the strawman that Christianity believes that Jesus was some kind of spawn of God. This one out of many why we reject Islam, it argues like an unlearnt person.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. John 1:1-5

[Habit7]

Big fonting and quoting from Wikipedia without citing not making your argument any stronger.

[i am an idiot]

Also consider in Isaiah's monotheism, he prophesied that God would come as a man and save His people:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

Quick question with that statement as i am familar with the whole jesus story.
If jesus is god, who was he praying to in the garden of gethsamane?

And why whilst on the torture stake did he say call out to his father in the heavens?

Was he mad?

[bluefete]

Also consider in Isaiah's monotheism, he prophesied that God would come as a man and save His people:
For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:6

Quick question with that statement as i am familar with the whole jesus story.
If jesus is god, who was he praying to in the garden of gethsamane?

And why whilst on the torture stake did he say call out to his father in the heavens?

Was he mad?

You are the son of your father.

Jesus is the son of God. The son is lower than the father. Therefore, Jesus prayed to God the father (This you know already from a previous post I made recently).

God the Father has delegated unto his son Jesus Christ certain responsibilities and the powers that go with them.

Jesus said what you ask the father in my name will be granted.

The Bible says that there is one intercessor between God and man and that is Jesus Christ (NOT Mary).

[i am an idiot]

Question was for habit7.
Next one will be fuh u bluefete.

[Habit7]

Quick question with that statement as i am familar with the whole jesus story.
If jesus is god, who was he praying to in the garden of gethsamane?

And why whilst on the torture stake did he say call out to his father in the heavens?

Was he mad?

The person of the Son was praying to the person of the Father. While the Son lived on Earth, He submitted Himself to the will of the Father.
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11

Torture stake? Me smells Jehovah Witness theology...
From the clear account of the Biblical manuscripts to the non canonical evidence, crucifixion on a wooden structure with an upright beam and a perpendicular cross beam, namely a cross, was the means of execution of Christ.

Jesus cried out in Aramaic "eli eli lama sabachthani" which to those present would mean one thing. Chapters and verses are recent reference points added in to the Bible. So when a Jew at that time wanted to recall a specific passage, they would call out the popular title of it. "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" is a title for a messianic psalm, Psalm 22 that would instantly come to the mind of a Jew.
Jesus was saying, here am I, fulfilling that psalm.

[i am an idiot]

Who he prayed to in d garden den?

[Habit7]

The person of the Son was praying to the person of the Father.

God is three in person, one in essence. Jesus was praying to the Father

[i am an idiot]

So he was basically talking to himself?
I tryna see it how u see it nah. Make sense of it all.

[meccalli]

Lets take an organism that can produce several generations in in few hours, bacteria, you see evolution in bacteria every time you see a stronger or differently formulated antibiotic product on the market for the same bacterial species. Survival of the fitness, bacteria with mutations that allow those individuals to survive antibiotics and replicate, produce new strains that require a new formula or strength.- natural selection is what Darwin worked heavily on and is a major driving force in evolution theory.

This is a poor and overplayed example of evolution. The bacteria after several uncountable generations still remain bacteria. The mutation of the bacteria is not a gain of genetic information, but a loss or reshuffle of pre-existing genetic information. Bacteria macroevolution would be the bacteria not becoming new species but new kinds (eg. a complex multicellular organism), we just dont see that.

Truth is that apart from mutations and natural selection, bacteria do gain new genetic material from processes like conjugation and the other 2 that rely on plasmids and material from dead bacteria, but that's beside the point. Evolution tells us that it isn't a stepwise transformation where every organism must evolve, rather evolve to suit their environment and be successful like bacteria has done being biologically successful in terms of numbers, numbers of species, amount of habitats occupied and general mandatory presence and effect it has on other multi cellular organisms. It simply doesn't need to change unless there is a stimulus driving it to do so.

[Habit7]

So he was basically talking to himself?

No, Himself would be that He is talking to His own person. Jesus speaking to the Father, is one person speaking to another.

Truth is that apart from mutations and natural selection, bacteria do gain new genetic material from processes like conjugation and the other 2 that rely on plasmids and material from dead bacteria, but that's beside the point.

That is still no new information, it is still the corruption of existing formation. Rearranging and corrupting the letters in 'Itsy Bitsy Spider' will not give you Sun Tzu's 'Art of War' in the original Chinese.

Evolution tells us that it isn't a stepwise transformation where every organism must evolve, rather evolve to suit their environment and be successful like bacteria has done being biologically successful in terms of numbers, numbers of species, amount of habitats occupied and general mandatory presence and effect it has on other multi cellular organisms. It simply doesn't need to change unless there is a stimulus driving it to do so.

Everything you said there is in line with adaptation not macroevolution. You are make presumptions, not giving evidence.

[i am an idiot]

But he is one in essence?

[Habit7]

Yes He is one in essence but prayer, like other forms of communication, is done between persons.

[i am an idiot]

Ok. Lol.

[New_SPECIES]

Quick question with that statement as i am familar with the whole jesus story.
If jesus is god, who was he praying to in the garden of gethsamane?

And why whilst on the torture stake did he say call out to his father in the heavens?

Was he mad?

The person of the Son was praying to the person of the Father. While the Son lived on Earth, He submitted Himself to the will of the Father..

Are you an "idiot"? Don't you understand? It's "SIMPLE"!

See my summary of what they preach:

In other words...
God created me... I sinned.... God turned himself into a man... Called Jesus... To suffer at the hands of wrongdoers... to punish himself for the sins of his own creation!

They are saying "God is a just God"..... But is either...
(1) God punishing one man (Jesus) for the sins of Mankind or....
(2) God punishing himself, in the form of Jesus, so that when he turns back to god... he could then forgive Mankind!

[meccalli]

So he was basically talking to himself?

No, Himself would be that He is talking to His own person. Jesus speaking to the Father, is one person speaking to another.

Truth is that apart from mutations and natural selection, bacteria do gain new genetic material from processes like conjugation and the other 2 that rely on plasmids and material from dead bacteria, but that's beside the point.

That is still no new information, it is still the corruption of existing formation. Rearranging and corrupting the letters in 'Itsy Bitsy Spider' will not give you Sun Tzu's 'Art of War' in the original Chinese.

Evolution tells us that it isn't a stepwise transformation where every organism must evolve, rather evolve to suit their environment and be successful like bacteria has done being biologically successful in terms of numbers, numbers of species, amount of habitats occupied and general mandatory presence and effect it has on other multi cellular organisms. It simply doesn't need to change unless there is a stimulus driving it to do so.

Everything you said there is in line with adaptation not macroevolution. You are make presumptions, not giving evidence.

Yes genetic material is composed of ACGT, it never changes. That is standard genetics and evolution has no problems with that, in fact it really is all about rearranging the sequence. That's the basis of genetic diversity. ACGT are four letters, yet we have billions of different organisms on earth composed with the same basic plan of 4 nucleotide bases. But its true, we haven't observed an increase in organism complexity as far as I know,although that can be argued for niches and time. Most evolutionists will also say look at the fossil record if you want evidence of macroevolution as well as reject those terms micro and macro being that its the same things over greater lengths of time.

[New_SPECIES]

The person of the Son was praying to the person of the Father.

God is three in person, one in essence. Jesus was praying to the Father

This is something like what people of the Hindu religion also say, except they have millions of forms as compared to the three forms in Christianity...

A Christian:
God is three in person, one in essence.

A Hindu:
God is Millions in forms, one in essence.

Links:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/readlea ... ourteenq_1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hindu_deities

[New_SPECIES]

Yes He is one in essence but prayer, like other forms of communication, is done between persons.

Strange enough though...

Christians don’t believe that this same communication could take place DIRECTLY between man and god..

They don’t want to accept Jesus as a messenger/teacher of the word and just communicate directly to the God himself!