The Religion Discussion

[Habit7]

^^^It will bolster your point if you point out what specifically is illogical. Furthermore to point out where you are required to 'just believe'

[Kasey]

JUST BELIEVE:
That the bible is right.

Illogical:
1) God is in the Bible has always been one in essence, three in person
2) Jesus is the Son, while not being the Father or the Holy Spirit. The 3 persons are one God, coequal, co-eternal, which the title Father and Son demonstrating their relationship, not progeny.
3) Even while as a zygote to a 33yr old man, Jesus sustained the world. He was not in spirit form in the heavens, His spirit and body was found in Christ.
4) In a sense it is God giving Himself to Himself but that just speaks volumes in that nothing else satisfies God

God needs satisfying? So then why create anything, if nothing can satisfy? God that stupid?

[Habit7]

JUST BELIEVE:
That the bible is right.

No.

Illogical:
1) God is in the Bible has always been one in essence, three in person
2) Jesus is the Son, while not being the Father or the Holy Spirit. The 3 persons are one God, coequal, co-eternal, which the title Father and Son demonstrating their relationship, not progeny.
3) Even while as a zygote to a 33yr old man, Jesus sustained the world. He was not in spirit form in the heavens, His spirit and body was found in Christ.
4) In a sense it is God giving Himself to Himself but that just speaks volumes in that nothing else satisfies God

Quoting back my post and saying it is illogical is not proving that it is illogical. State what is the logical standard and where the Bible defies it.

God needs satisfying? So then why create anything, if nothing can satisfy? God that stupid?

Because God is good and His creation is fallen and man His image bearer exercises this fallenness in direct rebellion to God his Creator, God's perfectly good justice demands punishment for rebelling against a perfectly good God. Jesus satisfies this demand for justice as God demonstrates His love for a fallen world by sending the Son to suffer the punishment those who believe in Him deserves (John 3:16). God has need of nothing, He is perfectly satisfied in Himself. But if He chooses to create a universe, and create man that would fall and He would save that man by His own hand, and there will be a eternally redeemed number to display His mercy while there will be an eternally condemned number to show His justice, who are we to questions actions? (Roman 9:19-26)

[nareshseep]

^^But it is not logical. It does not make any more sense than the Muslim concept or the Hindu Concept.

Every religion reaches a logical point where it asks believers to 'just believe' because 'anything is possible with god'.

So all religions are possible? (thats if we believe in God)

Simple.

Well said

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Because God is good and His creation is fallen

a perfect God creates a fallen creation

and man His image bearer exercises this fallenness in direct rebellion to God his Creator, God's perfectly good justice demands punishment for rebelling against a perfectly good God

who demands punishment?

Who created a fallen creation?

who are we to questions actions? (Roman 9:19-26)

the imperfect creation of a being that can do no wrong?

How can a perfect creator make an imperfect creation? His creation therefore is perfect and so it is EXACTLY as he intended. Why then the punishment? Or was the punishment intended as well?

[djaggs]

Because God is good and His creation is fallen

a perfect God creates a fallen creation

and man His image bearer exercises this fallenness in direct rebellion to God his Creator, God's perfectly good justice demands punishment for rebelling against a perfectly good God

who demands punishment?

Who created a fallen creation?

who are we to questions actions? (Roman 9:19-26)

the imperfect creation of a being that can do no wrong?

How can a perfect creator make an imperfect creation? His creation therefore is perfect and so it is EXACTLY as he intended. Why then the punishment? Or was the punishment intended as well?

Duane you seem to misunderstand the nature of God's creation. When God created man, he was created in the image of God. He was not made a robot that would automatically do evrything God says. That is not the essence of what a sentient being is. Man was made a free moral agent, having the ability to make his own choices. Man was created with the potential to be a holy being, just as God is holy. Holiness however comes as a result of one's choices, your free will.

God chose to make man with the potential to also fail, i.e. make the wrong choices. Why did He do this, this is a question no one can answer except God. I think however, that there is a certain moral authority that one enjoys when you can choose to be holy. The bible says

Romans 8
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

As sons of God we have certain authority, just as you as your father's son have authority in your father's household.

I believe that to carry the authority of the Father in heaven, we must be beings that choose of our own free will, to be His sons. Perhaps that way the authority entrusted to us by the Father will not be abused.

However, I do understand that His redemption plan is meant to bring all mankind back to His Holy standard and it still involves choice. Each person has to make a choice, an individual choice and the choice involves believing in Him. The redemption of mankind has to come about by man's own free choice, it cannot be forced.

The intended end result as far as I can understand is that the people who will remain on earth are those who have chosen God and rejected evil. Those who have chosen obedience of their own volition.

Perhaps this is the essence of who God is, a being in whom there is only light and holiness and we can only be like him if we choose to be so.

[rocknrolla]

id say he surely knew maybe even b4 creating man that they would disobey him and eat the apple. suggesting it was intentional. he probably even secretly commanded the snake to tempt them. he couldve hide the tree, never mention it etc. but knowing all things.. telling a human 'don't is the same as saying 'only do it when i turn my back or not around' lol

[djaggs]

id say he surely knew maybe even b4 creating man that they would disobey him and eat the apple. suggesting it was intentional. he probably even secretly commanded the snake to tempt them. he couldve hide the tree, never mention it etc. but knowing all things.. telling a human 'don't is the same as saying 'only do it when i turn my back or not around' lol

You make a very good point. A person manifests the character of God when he is able to make the right choice when no one is watching and do this consistently. It involves free will.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Because God is good and His creation is fallen

a perfect God creates a fallen creation

and man His image bearer exercises this fallenness in direct rebellion to God his Creator, God's perfectly good justice demands punishment for rebelling against a perfectly good God

who demands punishment?

Who created a fallen creation?

who are we to questions actions? (Roman 9:19-26)

the imperfect creation of a being that can do no wrong?

How can a perfect creator make an imperfect creation? His creation therefore is perfect and so it is EXACTLY as he intended. Why then the punishment? Or was the punishment intended as well?

Duane you seem to misunderstand the nature of God's creation.

you are right - I do not understand your concept of the nature of God's creation.

When God created man, he was created in the image of God. He was not made a robot that would automatically do evrything God says. That is not the essence of what a sentient being is. Man was made a free moral agent, having the ability to make his own choices. Man was created with the potential to be a holy being, just as God is holy. Holiness however comes as a result of one's choices, your free will.

why then is there original sin?

[rocknrolla]

id say he surely knew maybe even b4 creating man that they would disobey him and eat the apple. suggesting it was intentional. he probably even secretly commanded the snake to tempt them. he couldve hide the tree, never mention it etc. but knowing all things.. telling a human 'don't is the same as saying 'only do it when i turn my back or not around' lol

You make a very good point. A person manifests the character of God when he is able to make the right choice when no one is watching and do this consistently. It involves free will.

perhaps he knows us well indeed as stated. knowing us he knows that we have to burn to learn.. in otherwords we have to make mistakes to learn what is right. so he created us to intentionally fall in his trap and then redeem ourselves. in doing so, proving that we understand what he wants us to learn. the whole thing is a setup.. lol but a good one. for our betterment.

[djaggs]

Because God is good and His creation is fallen

a perfect God creates a fallen creation

and man His image bearer exercises this fallenness in direct rebellion to God his Creator, God's perfectly good justice demands punishment for rebelling against a perfectly good God

who demands punishment?

Who created a fallen creation?

who are we to questions actions? (Roman 9:19-26)

the imperfect creation of a being that can do no wrong?

How can a perfect creator make an imperfect creation? His creation therefore is perfect and so it is EXACTLY as he intended. Why then the punishment? Or was the punishment intended as well?

Duane you seem to misunderstand the nature of God's creation.

you are right - I do not understand your concept of the nature of God's creation.

When God created man, he was created in the image of God. He was not made a robot that would automatically do evrything God says. That is not the essence of what a sentient being is. Man was made a free moral agent, having the ability to make his own choices. Man was created with the potential to be a holy being, just as God is holy. Holiness however comes as a result of one's choices, your free will.

why then is there original sin?

There is good and evil. There is light and darkness. There is original sin because man made the wrong choice. Remember I said man was made with the "potential" to be Holy. Evil has to be eradicated through free will.

If there was no chance of man making the wrong choice, he would not be a free moral agent.
I believe that the creation of man was not complete when God made Adam. That was the start of the creation. The process is complete when man is perfected, which comes about when he has the ability to consistently make the right choices. Only then will he be a truly Holy being.

Evil came into being when Lucifer chose disobedience. He was originally God's archangel. Lucifer decided to inflict evil upon mankind through the temptation of Adam. God's plan was to turn what the devil intended to destroy man with into a means of making the man He created a perfect Holy being. Through the affliction of evil, mankind is processed so that only good remains.

2 Timothy 2:
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife. 24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

[MG Man]

if you truly believe in an all knowing, all omnipotent god, then free will would not exist

[Habit7]

Firstly, Duane I think your response to me is premised on God creating a fallen world, however God did not create a fallen world but a perfect one. Perfect man fell and the world fell along with him.

Secondly, MG Man I don't know who mentioned free will I don't belief man has free will, only God has free will. Man has a will that is limited by his capabilities and inclinations.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Perfect man fell

So he was not perfect then?

I don't belief man has free will, only God has free will.

Man has free will

which is it?

In Islam angels do not have free will. In Christianity however, angels do have free will.
In Islam Satan is a Jinn (one of Allah's creations that is made of smokeless flame and can have supernatural powers). In Christianity however, Satan is a fallen angel; an angel that disobeyed God.

[rocknrolla]

Firstly, Duane I think your response to me is premised on God creating a fallen world, however God did not create a fallen world but a perfect one. Perfect man fell and the world fell along with him.

Secondly, MG Man I don't know who mentioned free will I don't belief man has free will, only God has free will. Man has a will that is limited by his capabilities and inclinations.

many fundamental christians try to disagree with the concept of free will. their are two meanings to will. on the basic level will is ability to choose. on the deeper level it is about purposeful intention. in the aspect of choice we are able to choose between doing good or succumbing to evil. but also on the deeper level, we have an unlimited amount of power intention we can use. since it doesnt have a pricetag.. it's free ,p

because God can see the future of what you will do with your will/choice in circumstances to come doesnt mean ur free will is taken away. just as if i peered into the future and saw someone pick the red pill or the blue pill. i never eroded their freedom of choice.

eradicating evil is also not really the task. in a sense it is but what is really to be done is to transmute evil into good.

e.g - someone stole your pencil sharpener and it inconvenienced u greatly. u can take that now and know that if u steal someone else's you may cause them the same grief undeservedly, but u can aslo gather that you should increase your ability to secure your pencil shapener. a very very basic example.

evil is stopped in it's tracks not by killing it.. "why Doesnt God just kill the devil and end all the evil" becomes the question of paradox in that situation. the Devil has a purpose and a post. in a sense you can say he's just doing his job. in fact he is, because God sent him down here with the intention to persuade men to wickedness... intentionally. So the Devil creates the tests, and ur supposed to pass them and God will grade your paper.

Angels do not have free will. they are to follow God's orders. as far as i know christianity does not say angels have free will.

[Habit7]

Perfect man fell

So he was not perfect then?

Where do get your standard of a perfect man?


The Bible doesnt say man has a "free will." I expect djaggs to agree that man's will is limited by his capabilities and inclinations, I just think it is a misnomer to call man's will free.

[rocknrolla]

it doesnt say so in so many words no..

but what capabilities and intentions are we lacking if he gave us all the ability and opportunity to become like him. perhaps that's why he commanded his angels to prostrate, because his creation of man was a creation designed to surpass even them!

the problem is we dont believe there is a clear cut way. we are not experiencing it nor witnessing it. as i said.. results is what we need and then faith becomes knowing.. as u no longer have to believe if u witnessed it. u know it! but wouldnt u agree then that if we can become like him that we have free will?

i know it is a hardcore belief among christian fundamentalists taught that we dont have free will tho. but remember you dont have to just take everything i say. test it. remember that each new piece of understanding when added to the collective must strengthen it and not contradicting it in any way. it's like putting together a puzzle towards complete understanding. all the pieces fit and u get to absorb the entire picture.

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Perfect man fell

So he was not perfect then?

Where do get your standard of a perfect man?


The Bible doesnt say man has a "free will." I expect djaggs to agree that man's will is limited by his capabilities and inclinations, I just think it is a misnomer to call man's will free.

per·fect
adjective \ˈpər-fikt\
1a : being entirely without fault or defect

don't you consider God to be perfect?

If man fell then he is not perfect.

[Habit7]

Man became imperfect when he committed a fault.

[djaggs]

Perfect man fell

So he was not perfect then?

Where do get your standard of a perfect man?


The Bible doesnt say man has a "free will." I expect djaggs to agree that man's will is limited by his capabilities and inclinations, I just think it is a misnomer to call man's will free.

Yes, perhaps i should have said choice rather than will since we cannot overrule the will of God. e.g. it was foreknown Judas was going to betray Jesus. God knew what his choice was going to be. Our freedom is limited to our choices but God foreknows our choices.

[AdamB]

And the Sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise
And for the Moon we have appointed mansions till she return like an old shrivelled palm-leaf.
It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit.”
Surah 36:38-40 (Pickthall)

So the sun orbits too. Lol

Solar Orbit

It takes the Solar System about 225–250 million years to complete one orbit of the Galaxy (a Galactic year), so the Sun is thought to have completed 18–20 orbits during its lifetime and 1/1250 of a revolution since the origin of humans. The orbital speed of the Solar System about the center of the Galaxy is approximately 220 km/s or 0.073% of the speed of light. At this speed, it takes around 1,400 years for the Solar System to travel a distance of 1 light-year, or 8 days to travel 1 AU (astronomical unit).
Garlick, Mark Antony (2002). The Story of the Solar System. Cambridge University. p. 46. ISBN 0-521-80336-5.

Galactic rotation
The stars and gas in the Galaxy rotate about its center differentially, meaning that the rotation period varies with location. As is typical for spiral galaxies, the distribution of mass in the Milky Way Galaxy is such that the orbital speed of most stars in the Galaxy does not depend strongly on their distance from the center. Away from the central bulge or outer rim, the typical stellar orbital speed is between 210 and 240 km/s. Hence the orbital period of the typical star is directly proportional only to the length of the path traveled. This is unlike the situation within the Solar System, where two-body gravitational dynamics dominate and different orbits have significantly different velocities associated with them. The rotation curve (shown in the figure) describes this rotation. Toward the center of the galaxy the orbit speeds are too low while beyond 7 kpcs the speeds are too high to match what would be expected from the universal law of gravitation.

If the Galaxy contained only the mass observed in stars, gas, and other baryonic (ordinary) matter, the rotation speed would decrease with distance from the center. However, the observed curve is relatively flat, indicating that there is additional mass that cannot be detected directly with electromagnetic radiation. This inconsistency is attributed to dark matter.[20] Alternatively, a minority of astronomers propose that a modification of the law of gravity may explain the observed rotation curve.
Peter Schneider (2006). Extragalactic Astronomy and Cosmology. Springer. p. 413. ISBN 3-540-33174-3.

Rotation of the Sun
The Sun, like most other astronomical objects (planets, asteroids, galaxies, etc.), rotates on its axis. Unlike Earth and other solid objects, the entire Sun doesn't rotate at the same rate. Because the Sun is not solid, but is instead a giant ball of gas and plasma, different parts of the Sun spin at different rates.

We can tell how quickly the surface of the Sun is rotating by observing the motion of structures, such as sunspots, on the Sun's visible surface. The regions of the Sun near its equator rotate once every 25 days. The Sun's rotation rate decreases with increasing latitude, so that its rotation rate is slowest near its poles. At its poles the Sun rotates once every 36 days!

The interior of the Sun does not spin the same way as does its surface. Scientists believe that the inner regions of the Sun, including the Sun's core and radiative zone, do rotate more like a solid body. The outer parts of the Sun, from the convective zone outward, rotate at different rates that vary with latitude. The boundary between the inner parts of the Sun that spin together as a whole and the outer parts that spin at different rates is called the "tachocline".

The behavior of the Sun's magnetic field is strongly influenced by the combination of convective currents, which bring the charged plasma from deep within the Sun to the Sun's surface, and the differential rotation of the outer layers of the Sun. The complex, swirling motions that result make a tangled mess of magnetic field lines at the Sun's surface. Differential rotation is apparently the main driver of the 11-year sunspot cycle and the associated 22-year solar cycle. The notion that differential rotation and convective motion drive these cycles was first put forth in 1961 by the American astronomer Horace Babcock, and is now known as the Babcock Model.

[AdamB]

Perfect man fell

So he was not perfect then?

I don't belief man has free will, only God has free will.

Man has free will

which is it?
Well it's obvious here that Christians have the free will to decide for themselves whether man has free will or not!

In Islam angels do not have free will. In Christianity however, angels do have free will.
In Islam Satan is a Jinn (one of Allah's creations that is made of smokeless flame and can have supernatural powers).

In Christianity however, Satan is a fallen angel; an angel that disobeyed God.
Does this imply that GOD is imperfect in that HE was unable to create angels to obey HIM? It's ironic though that Satan "fell" but then challenged GOD or is in command of this realm, according to christianity.

Duane,
What's your opinion? Which concept makes sense or is more logical?

[Habit7]

Why should Duane answer your question when you have been dodging mine?

Is that Psalm corrupted or pure? How do you distinguish this fact?

[AdamB]

Why should Duane answer your question when you have been dodging mine?

Because he has the free will to answer and I have the free will to refuse to answer!! The same free will you have said that man does not have...

[anoojra]

Dwayne,

Perfection of any person or thing, is relative, not absolute. (Compare Ps 119:96.) That is, a thing is “perfect” according to, or in relation to, the purpose or end for which it is appointed by its designer or producer, or the use to which it is to be put by its receiver or user.

The very meaning of perfection requires that there be someone who decides when “completion” has been reached, what the standards of excellence are, what requirements are to be satisfied, and what details are essential. Ultimately, God the Creator is the final Arbiter of perfection, the Standard-Setter, in accord with his own righteous purposes and interests.—Ro 12:2

[djaggs]

I came across this very interesting article about our "free will" according to the bible.

By Andrew Nasalli

We should study "free will" because it is theologically significant and because many people assume a particular definition of "free will" that is incorrect. Studying "free will" is challenging because it is not defined in Scripture. Further, it is complex because it connects to many other larger theological issues; it intersects with philosophy, historical theology, and systematic theology.

What is "free will"?

We should start by learning the standard terminology associated with the "free will" debate.

1. "Will" means the function of choosing.

2. Constraining causes force people to act against their will. For example, a person being robbed at gunpoint is constrained in this sense. Non-constraining causes do not force people to act against their will but are sufficient to cause an action. For example, if you have a fear of heights, you probably will not want to walk on the edge of a tall building's roof; that fear is a non-constraining cause.

3. Indeterminism holds that genuinely free acts are not causally determined. Determinism holds that everything is causally determined (i.e., that prior events and conditions necessitate every event).

4. Incompatibilism holds that determinism and human freedom are incompatible; it rejects determinism and affirms human freedom. Compatibilism holds that determinism and human freedom are compatible.

5. Libertarian free will is the ability either to do something or not. Free agency is the ability to do whatever a person wants to do (apart from constraining causes). This difference is not a small one. For example, do non-Christians have the inherent ability either to choose to trust Christ or not? Is such a decision ultimately dependent on their will?

6. God's general sovereignty holds that God is in charge of everything without controlling everything. God's specific sovereignty holds that God ordains everything and that he controls everything to accomplish his purposes.

What are biblical and theological reasons for compatibilism and against incompatibilism?

1. The Bible never says that humans are free in the sense that they are autonomously able to make decisions that are not caused by anything. Libertarian free will is often merely assumed based on common-sense experience but not proved.

2. God is absolutely sovereign. He "works all things according to the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11). He does whatever he wants, and no one can stop him (Psalm 115:3; Daniel 4:34-35).

3. Humans are morally responsible, which requires that they be free. There is no biblical reason that God cannot cause real human choices. The Bible grounds human accountability in God's authority as our creator and judge, not in libertarian free will.

4. Both (1) God's absolute sovereignty and (2) human freedom and responsibility are simultaneously true. Here are just a few of many passages in which both elements are present without any hint of contradiction. "The heart of man plans his way, but the LORD establishes his steps.... The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD" (Proverbs 16:9, 33). "This Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men" (Acts 2:23). "For truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place" (Acts 4:27- 28).

5. The Bible condemns some people for acts not done with a libertarian free will. For example, Judas Iscariot was destined to betray Jesus, which means that he did not have the ability either to do it or not.


6. God is omniscient (e.g., he predicts future events). John Feinberg observes, "If indeterminism is correct, I do not see how God can be said to foreknow the future. If God actually knows what will (not just might) occur in the future, the future must be set and some sense of determinism applies. God's foreknowledge is not the cause of the future, but it guarantees that what God knows must occur, regardless of how it is brought about" ("God Ordains All Things," in Predestination and Free Will: Four Views of Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom [ed. David Basinger and Randall Basinger; Downers Grove: IVP, 1986], 33- 34).

7. God breathed out Scripture through humans without violating their personalities. The way that God inspired the Bible requires compatibilism.

8. God enables Christians to persevere: Christians work because God works (cf. Philippians 2:12- 13). Indeterminism would mean that Christians can reject Christ and lose their salvation, but the Bible teaches that all genuine Christians are eternally secure and will persevere to the end by God's grace.

9. God himself does not have a free will in the libertarian sense. Can God sin? If not, then he does not have a libertarian free will, and thus a libertarian free will is not necessary for a person to be genuinely free.

10. God's people do not have free wills in heaven in the libertarian sense. Will God's people be able to sin in heaven? If not, then they will not have a libertarian free will, and thus a libertarian free will is not necessary for people to be genuinely free.

Is libertarian free will the reason for the origin of sin?

Short answer: No.

When addressing this hugely difficult question, it is helpful to consider the following:
1. God is not the author or agent of evil, and he is not culpable for evil.

2. Satan is not God's equal opposite (i.e., a God-versus-Satan dualism).

3. God, who accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his will, ordained that sin would enter his universe. (See the short essay in this series entitled "How Could a Good God Allow Suffering and Evil?") God sovereignly works through secondary causes (such as humans) such that he is not culpable for evil but the secondary causes are.

4. Satan and then Adam and Eve sinned because they wanted to sin, and they are morally responsible to God for it. (The ability of humans to sin has four historical stages. First, Adam and Eve were initially able to sin. Second, after their fall, all unregenerate humans [i.e., those who are spiritually dead] are not able not to sin. Third, regenerate humans [i.e., those whom God has given spiritual life] are able not to sin. Fourth, glorified regenerate humans are not able to sin.)

5. Tension remains because compatibilists cannot explain exactly how God can ordain all things without being the author or agent of evil. It is at places like that that your head will start spinning if you try to put all the puzzle pieces together (we don't have all the pieces!). A far better option is to acknowledge that this is a mystery that we finite and fallen humans simply cannot comprehend exhaustively.

6. There is no easy answer to explaining why God ordained the origin of sin in the first place. John Piper offers a helpful pastoral perspective in Spectacular Sins and Their Global Purpose in the Glory of Christ (Wheaton: Crossway, 2008). (This is available online for free as a PDF: http://www.desiringgod.org/media/pdf/books_bss/bss.pdf. See esp. pp. 39-64.) Why doesn't God simply wipe out Satan? Piper concludes, "The ultimate answer . . . is that 'all things were created through [Christ] and for [Christ]' (Col. 1:16). God foresaw all that Satan would do if he created Satan and permitted him to rebel. In choosing to create him, he was choosing to fold all of that evil into his purpose for creation. That purpose for creation was the glory of his Son. All things, including Satan and all his followers, were created with this in view" (p. 48).

Is libertarian free will the ultimate reason for conversion?

Conversion consists of turning from sin (i.e., repentance) and to God (i.e., faith). Why do people convert from being non-Christians and become Christians? Is it ultimately because of their libertarian free wills? Or is it ultimately because of God?

We do what we do because we want to do it (as long as we are not constrained), but we are not always able to do something or not (i.e., we do not always have the inherent ability to choose between options). Non-Christians do what they want to do, and they will never want to come to Christ as their master unless God first changes their "wanter." Here's an analogy: if a person is locked in a room but doesn't want to get out, then even though he can't get out, he is not there against his will.

1. Total Depravity. Unbelievers are totally depraved in the sense that depravity affects their entire being (Genesis 6:5; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 9:3; Isaiah 1:6; 64:6; Jeremiah 1323; 17:9; Romans 1:18-3:20, 23; James 3:2; 1 John 1:8, 10) including the mind (Romans 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Titus 1:15), body (Romans 8:10; Ephesians 4:17-19), and will (John 8:34).

2. Total Inability. Total depravity describes the human condition, and total inability describes the result of that condition (John 1:13; Ephesians 4:18 and Ezekiel 36:26; 2 Timothy 2:26; Romans 6:17, 20; 8:7-8; 2 Corinthians 4:4). Unregenerate humans are incapable of obeying the gospel (Matthew 7:18; John 8:43-44; 14:17; Romans 8:7- 8; 1 Corinthians 2:14).

3. Regeneration. Conversion is entirely a work of God (John 6:37, 44, 65; James 1:18). Regeneration transforms a human's will and enables a person to come willingly to Christ. Regeneration is the act whereby God through the Holy Spirit by means of his word instantaneously imparts spiritual life to the spiritually dead (John 1:13; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:23; James 1:18). It is a spiritual resurrection (Ephesians 2:1-6; Colossians 2:13), birth (John 3:3- , and creation (2 Corinthians 5:17).

4. Human Responsibility. This does not mean, however, that humans are not responsible to obey the gospel because God may command humans to do what they cannot do by themselves (cf. Leviticus 18:5 with Galatians 3:12). Human inability and responsibility are mysteriously compatible.

5. Evangelism and Prayer. The God who ordains the ends also ordains the means, and evangelism and prayer are God-ordained means to God-ordained ends. J. I. Packer argues that you already "acknowledge that God is sovereign in salvation" because "you pray for the conversion of others" (Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God [Downers Grove: IVP, 1961], 14-15).

[anoojra]

As for the Trinity Doctrine, it did NOT originate with Christianity but was a pagan belief that was adopted into Christianity years later

" Constantine’s Role at Nicaea
FOR many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.
Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”
What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”
Hence, Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology,” says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.
None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?
Further Development
AFTER Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.
That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus.
Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: “The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology.”
The Athanasian Creed
THE Trinity was defined more fully in the Athanasian Creed. Athanasius was a clergyman who supported Constantine at Nicaea. The creed that bears his name declares: “We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God.”
Well-informed scholars agree, however, that Athanasius did not compose this creed. The New Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. . . . The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.”
So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: “The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics.” "

[Habit7]

Why should Duane answer your question when you have been dodging mine?

Because he has the free will to answer and I have the free will to refuse to answer!! The same free will you have said that man does not have...

For someone who claims to have the truth, your answer makes you appear to be very deceptive, I believe Islamists call it kitman, lying by omission. As oppose to taqiyya which is just saying something that isnt true.
Whatever deceptive device Islam attempts for its promotion, Christianity teaches 1 Peter 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence also in contradiction to the Quran which appeal to the very book Psalms 101:7 He who practices deceit shall not dwell within my house; He who speaks falsehood shall not maintain his position before me

You may try to attach Islam to the credibility of Christianity but they are world apart.

[Habit7]

Constantine lived between 272-337 AD and the first Council of Nicea was 325 AD

The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty... I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all...'" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation... [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority... There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Part of the reason that the Trinity doctrine was not "officially" taught until the time of the Council of Nicea is because Christianity was illegal until shortly before the council. It wasn't really possible for official Christian groups to meet and discuss doctrine. For the most part, they were fearful of making public pronouncements concerning their faith.

Additionally, if a group had attacked the person of Adam, the early church would have responded with an official doctrine of who Adam was. As it was, the person of Christ was attacked. When the Church defended the deity of Christ, the doctrine of the Trinity was further defined.

The early church believed in the Trinity, as is evidenced by the quotes above, and it wasn't necessary to really make them official. It wasn't until errors started to creep in that councils began to meet to discuss the Trinity, as well as other doctrines that came under fire.

http://carm.org/early-trinitarian-quotes

[AdamB]

Why should Duane answer your question when you have been dodging mine?

Because he has the free will to answer and I have the free will to refuse to answer!! The same free will you have said that man does not have...

For someone who claims to have the truth, your answer makes you appear to be very deceptive, I believe Islamists call it kitman, lying by omission. As oppose to taqiyya which is just saying something that isnt true.
Whatever deceptive device Islam attempts for its promotion, Christianity teaches 1 Peter 3:15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence also in contradiction to the Quran which appeal to the very book Psalms 101:7 He who practices deceit shall not dwell within my house; He who speaks falsehood shall not maintain his position before me

You may try to attach Islam to the credibility of Christianity but they are world apart.

Kinda like how you refused to answer about the FEDERAL LAW eh?

Your quotes from the old testament is not 1st person - Jesus speaking and anything from the new testament with the exception of the gospels (even though they are questionable) are words put in the mouth of Jesus, words that he did not speak! They have put lies from his mouth, lies that he did not speak, lies from which he will have to defend himself on the day of judgment!!