Caribbean Airline aircraft crashes in Guyana!

[Habit7]

Pilot Lapses Suspected in Guyana Plane Crash


Crash investigators believe excessive speed and other suspected lapses in landing procedures caused a Caribbean Airlines jet to roll off a Guyana runway in late July, according to people familiar with the details.
Nobody was killed in the accident, but images of the four-year old Boeing 737′s broken fuselage—along with reports of terrified passengers scrambling out of the wreck—sparked widespread public and industry interest in the causes of the accident.
Preliminary findings by investigators, according to industry and government officials, point to pilot error rather than mechanical or other system malfunctions. Eyewitness accounts and data retrieved from the plane’s data-recorders indicate the twin-engine Boeing aircraft, carrying 163 people, landed too fast and too far down the strip in Georgetown, Guyana on July 30, these officials said.
A Senior Guyana transport official last week said the cockpit crew of Flight 523 reported no problems to air-traffic controllers on approach, adding that data analyzed by investigators so far also doesn’t highlight any major system malfunctions. The comments of Zulfikar Mohamed, head of Guyana’s civil aviation office, played down theories that hydraulic or mechanical problems played a significant role in the accident.
In two separate interviews last week, Mr. Mohamed also gave the strongest sign yet that at least some investigators believe that movable panels on the front and rear edges of wings—essential to decelerate most airliners during descents—apparently weren’t extended as required before touchdown. “It appears that way,” Mr. Mohamed said, based on early findings and informal discussions with U.S. and other investigators.

Photographs taken after accident don’t show either sets of panels, called flaps and slats, extended on the plane. Mr. Mohamed said that investigators found the handle in the cockpit, normally used to extend the flaps, in the up position, which would be consistent with the panels not being extended. “The handles certainly may have been in a position they shouldn’t have been,” he said
Press officials for manufacturer Boeing Co. and the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board, which has a big role in the investigation, declined to comment.
According to Mr. Mohamed, investigators still have to rule out the possibility that the wing panels could have retracted after touchdown, or rescue crew could have inadvertently moved the flap handles when they were removing the plane’s injured pilot or other perhaps other survivors.
But safety experts and people familiar with the investigation discounted those possibilities. Completely retracting flaps fully extended for touchdown on a relatively short runway such as the one in Guyana, experts said, typically would take longer than Flight 523 remained on the runway. Furthermore, passenger-evacuation procedures usually require pilots to extend, rather than retract, flaps.
Guyana is formally in charge of the investigation, but much of the technical work relies on help from Boeing and the U.S. safety board. The board sent seven staff members to the site, an unusually large contingent for a crash without fatalities, underscoring that local officials are relying heavily on the safety board’s expertise.
It would be highly unusual for an experienced captain, such as the one who commanded the Caribbean Airlines flight, to fail to extend flaps prior to landing. Such a mistake, according to safety experts, normally would prompt obvious and repeated warning in the cockpit, and the plane would be extremely difficult to fly at normal approach speed.
The airport experienced light rain around the time of the accident, but visibility apparently was good. Investigators, among other things, are trying to determine if some distraction in the cockpit could have resulted in improper landing procedures
The Guyana crash illustrates the persistent hazards of so-called runway excursions: accidents and serious incidents in which airliners careen off runways, often because pilots landed too fast, touched too far down the strip, or didn’t recognize the difficulty of stopping on wet, slushy or snow-packed surfaces.
In recent years, regulators and safety groups have focused particularly on preventing runway accidents in which poor pilot decision-making results in landing aircraft being unable to stop safely
According to statistics compiled by manufacturer Boeing Co., runway accidents involving Western-built aircraft, including excursions during takeoffs and landings, accounted for more than 970 fatalities from 2001 to 2010. A report released last year by European air-traffic control officials cited runway excursions as “the most common type of accident reported annually” in the region and around the world, with landing overruns accounting for 77% of all such accidents in that category.

Source: Wall Street Journal

http://pilotnewsmag.com/?p=11295

[zoom rader]

I think Guyanas airport should be banned for air traffic and turned in a drag strip

[paparazzi]

That's interesting habit7. I remember early after someone pointed out the position of the flaps.

I'm not one to play tuner csi but no way those flaps were not down for the landing. My theory is that plane was properly configured for landing with flaps down (40). However, the plane touched down too far down the runway (or maybe didn't touch at all) captain realizing he would have to go around or do a touch and go called for flaps up (meaning go around configuration) (30 or less). Co pilot instead puts selects flap 0 causing the flaps to retract. Captain realizes he can't get any lift (because flaps are retracting) and then makes the decision that he has to land this thing by hook or crook. Overshoots runway and the rests history.

This is only my theory as I find it nearly inconceivable that a pilot would attempt to land the plane with flaps 0.

[Habit7]

It takes a couple seconds for the flaps to go from 40 to 0, not enough to fully retract before they go around. To land without flaps you have to force the yoke down and come in pretty fast, not to mention the screaming GPWS saying "Flaps." The capt is an 737 instructor and this is very wierd that he would do that or at least think he could land halfway down a wet SYCJ with a full load. They co-pilot was a political appointee who beat my cousin for the job, he deserve it.

[Dizzy28]

It takes a couple seconds for the flaps to go from 40 to 0, not enough to fully retract before they go around. To land without flaps you have to force the yoke down and come in pretty fast, not to mention the screaming GPWS saying "Flaps." The capt is an 737 instructor and this is very wierd that he would do that or at least think he could land halfway down a wet SYCJ with a full load. They co-pilot was a political appointee who beat my cousin for the job, he deserve it.

A political appointee in a job where clearly training and experience should come first?:shock:

[paparazzi]

It takes a couple seconds for the flaps to go from 40 to 0, not enough to fully retract before they go around.

That's what confuses me. Unless even after impact the flaps continued to retract. I'm too familiar with a 737's systems but flaps would be controlled by some screw type hydraulic mechanism with electric acutators (I'm guessing). Even though the plane broke apart maybe there continued to be enough hydraulic pressure which allowed the flaps to close fully.

[pugboy]

landing without flaps would be like trying to start driving your car in 5th gear
apart from the loud warnings everything would feel and operate different

[Seeker]

It takes a couple seconds for the flaps to go from 40 to 0, not enough to fully retract before they go around. To land without flaps you have to force the yoke down and come in pretty fast, not to mention the screaming GPWS saying "Flaps." The capt is an 737 instructor and this is very wierd that he would do that or at least think he could land halfway down a wet SYCJ with a full load. They co-pilot was a political appointee who beat my cousin for the job, he deserve it.

I remember the Tenerife disaster in 1977 that occurred in the canary islands where 2 Jumbo Jets - Pan American and Dutch KLM collided in the runway. Some 586 people lost their lives.
NTSB findings conclude that the KLM pilot, a veteran, KLM spokesperson, an instructor and main flagship pilot......didn't wait for clearance from the tower and proceeded to take off. But the Pan American was still on the runway still looking to exit at the correct ramp.
Due to low thick fog that day both pilots never saw each until the final seconds.
When the dutch pilot, Van Zataan I think he name was, saw the other plane in his path, he tried to lift his aircraft the pan american, thus dragged the KLM tail on the runway for about 60ft.
He became briefly airborne but his starboard engine (i think) and landing gear plowed through sections of the pan american upper fuslage, causing heavy damage and structural fires to the pan am due to leaking fuel.
The KLM flew for about 500 ft but its engines sucked in large amounts of debris, stalled, rolled to the left and crashed. The plane was fully fueled and erupted in a large fireball.....there were no survivors.
There were survivors in the pan am though as passengers escaped through destroyed sections of the plane.
This disaster still remains largest air disaster in terms of death toll.

[MISHI]

Nah it was trounced by the 9-11 attacks... but people still regard it as the world's worst air disaster. 583 people... hell of a thing.

PH-BUF had clearance for their takeoff path, but not the actual takeoff from the runway. Van Zanten was impatient due to possibly the fact that KLM had procedures for something called duty/ time where the delays could cost the crew in terms of fines etc.

Overall it was a chain of events that caused it and indeed a sad situation overall.

[Habit7]

Overall it was a chain of events that caused it and indeed a sad situation overall.

...yeah like heavy fog, a lack of ground radar and ATC that wasnt too observant.
Thats why I believe in TTPP we need to place all the offices and hangers to the southeast side of the runway and make that area into taxi space. This would prevent any possible runway incursions when jets have to cross the runway to taxi to RWY 10

[NorStar2K]

Overall it was a chain of events that caused it and indeed a sad situation overall.

...yeah like heavy fog, a lack of ground radar and ATC that wasnt too observant.
Thats why I believe in TTPP we need to place all the offices and hangers to the southeast side of the runway and make that area into taxi space. This would prevent any possible runway incursions when jets have to cross the runway to taxi to RWY 10

............and don't forget what appears to have been poor/lack of CRM.

[Seeker]

Overall it was a chain of events that caused it and indeed a sad situation overall.

...yeah like heavy fog, a lack of ground radar and ATC that wasnt too observant.
Thats why I believe in TTPP we need to place all the offices and hangers to the southeast side of the runway and make that area into taxi space. This would prevent any possible runway incursions when jets have to cross the runway to taxi to RWY 10

............and don't forget what appears to have been poor/lack of CRM.

X2
it was also alleged that ATC was watching football on TV and not concentrating on the events around them as a lot of aircraft was diverted to there due a bomb threat at Los Palmos airport (I think) hence that day had an extremely high volume of traffic for a small airport.......however the delays = fines for KLM pilots is news to me.
Nice info.
Its hell trying to recall this from memory. The old brains is not as fast as it used to be.

You guys can correct this info

[pugboy]

that disaster also highlighted the "god" status captains used to flex when communicating with their own copilots and tower.
that changed a lot afterwards

[Seeker]

tru dat

[kai]

Were they on an instrument approach or cleared for a visual?Can't see them over shooting on an ils

[Habit7]

Were they on an instrument approach or cleared for a visual?Can't see them over shooting on an ils

Whether instrument or visual you can still overshoot if you not controlling your aircraft properly

[pugboy]

i dont think guyana got ils

[Chill_Factor]

Here is the video of the idiot doing an investigation into the crash.

[kai]

Were they on an instrument approach or cleared for a visual?Can't see them over shooting on an ils

Whether instrument or visual you can still overshoot if you not controlling your aircraft properly

Whats the procedure when you lose the glide slope on an ils?

[MISHI]

Here is the video of the idiot doing an investigation into the crash.

That fool?

[MISHI]

Overall it was a chain of events that caused it and indeed a sad situation overall.

...yeah like heavy fog, a lack of ground radar and ATC that wasnt too observant.
Thats why I believe in TTPP we need to place all the offices and hangers to the southeast side of the runway and make that area into taxi space. This would prevent any possible runway incursions when jets have to cross the runway to taxi to RWY 10

............and don't forget what appears to have been poor/lack of CRM.

X2
it was also alleged that ATC was watching football on TV and not concentrating on the events around them as a lot of aircraft was diverted to there due a bomb threat at Los Palmos airport (I think) hence that day had an extremely high volume of traffic for a small airport.......however the delays = fines for KLM pilots is news to me.
Nice info.
Its hell trying to recall this from memory. The old brains is not as fast as it used to be.

You guys can correct this info

It was gran canaria airport the terrorists attacked. (think it's spelt that way). I used to follow this as early as 96 or so as it was absolutely fascinating to me about air crashes and figuring out why they did. There were MANY articles on it; airdisaster.com is a good resourse... TLC had the animation (though crappy) of the crash from "survival in the sky" and many other recent ones like "crash of the century" (probably the creepiest CGI of the crash I've seen)

The Pan Am pilots had some confusion with the tower telling them which exit to take to get off the runway... which wad the 3rd exit... but the 3rd would route it back of the airport and would be hard for a 747 to have made that turn so the logical exit was the 4th... which is near where the accident occurred.



The fog was so bad that when the crash happened the fire response team didn't know there were TWO crashes... they though PH-BUF (klm) was the only one when N736PA (pan am) was burning further up the runway.

I believe as well that because of all parties using their radio at the time, KLM didn't get the proper message of "we're still on the runway!". All in all and with the chain of events... Captain Van Zanten ultimately made the major decision that took the lives of himself and the 582 others... By taking off when he didn't have the clearance to do so. his first officer even said this when he first began to roll.

"Wait... we don't have clearance"

Just a real sad thing. This got me into crash solving as well as

-AA 191
-DA 191
-UA 232

[Chill_Factor]

^ There is a new season of Air Crash Investigation... which cover the:
- BA 38 (777 crash)
- Turkish 1951 (737-800 crash)
- US Airways 1549 (A320 hudson river crash)

[MISHI]

not really new but it's the latest season out.

Waiting for tne new one.

[Chill_Factor]

not really new but it's the latest season out.

Waiting for tne new one.

Well 2011 are there any others after those though?

[MISHI]

Season 11 and 12 (2011/2012)Cineflix has indicated there will be an 11th season of Mayday consisting of thirteen episodes. Season 12 has been greenlit by Cineflix. Some stills in the Cineflix website are of TAM Airlines Flight 3054 and the episode about it will air on the 12 August, 2011 on Discovery Canada entitled "Deadly Reputation", other episodes that are airing are "The Plane That Flew Too High" (West Caribbean Airways Flight 708) and "Split Decision" (Arrow Air Flight 1285), the other episodes are still unknown. There is a still of "Split Decision" episode on Discovery Channel Canada's website.[12][13][14]

According to Cineflix's Season 11 description; A US military charter flight crashes after a stop in Newfoundland, Canada (Arrow Air Flight 1285); in São Paulo, an Airbus jet careens off the tarmac at the notorious Congonhas Airport (TAM Airlines Flight 3054); in 1958, a crash in Munich kills more than seven members of the Manchester United football club (The Munich air disaster). [15][16]

[Jack the Ripper]

Has the investigation been concluded and cause of the over-run determined?

[equipped2ripp]

no, they said 2 weeks ago that it would be ready in a couple weeks.

[Rainman]

CAL aircraft made 'long landing'
Preliminary investigations:

Story Created: Jan 11, 2012 at 11:59 PM ECT

Story Updated: Jan 11, 2012 at 11:59 PM ECT

GEORGETOWN

The Guyana Civil Aviation Authority (GCAA) said yesterday that its preliminary investigations into the crash of a Caribbean Airlines (CAL) aircraft last July indicate that the airline made a "long landing" at the Cheddi Jagan International Airport.

In a statement, GCAA said that "at this stage it appears that the primary contributing factor in this accident was that the aircraft made a long landing and touched down with insufficient runway remaining to come to a safe stop".

The GCAA, which was the lead agency in the probe along with American and Caribbean experts, did not elaborate on what might have contributed to the bad landing on the 4,500-foot long runway. —CMC


http://www.trinidadexpress.com/business ... 52338.html

[Habit7]

We need to hire these pilots, CAL flights will never be more fun

[jose123]

Anyone got a link to the official report on this, or better yet the CVR transcripts?