Hanging Bill Defeated

[RASC]

Baaaa Baaaa Baaaa......... give jack his jacket RASC did his research unlike the PP supporters who dealing with emotions

I eh 'fraid none of them.

[trini mk5]

Baaaa Baaaa Baaaa......... give jack his jacket RASC did his research unlike the PP supporters who dealing with emotions

emotions yuh say??

[Aaron 2NR]

ok where do i start....

yes i do support the death penalty...as well as the bill that the government had before parliament...no where did the government say it is going to stop crime but they are going to enforce the death penalty as the highest form of conviction in the land.

if we recall from Imbert's speech.....the privy council told us in three landmark decisions in 93, 03,04 that our laws are so tightly worded that the privy council has said that even if they wanted to, they cannot interfere with the imposition of the mandatory death penalty for murder in T&T.....

Under the human right's act, after being convicted a person has to be executive before 5 yrs has passed otherwise it would be illegal to execute said person....

Under our current constitution there is so time limit in which a person has to appeal his conviction and the government wanted to amend the constitution, so that, after being convicted a person has 12 mths to appeal and be heard by the appeal courts and human rights commission.....the PNM then asked for it to be changed to 18 mths because the appeal courts usually take sometime to respond....


This was just one of the plans that the government were going to rule out in its fight against crime. ie. setting a time limit on appeals for those on death row.....
The government is in the process to bring legislation to construct a DNA lab, setting up a database and include it in its fight against crime.....

[Humes]

Aaron 2NR, the government has publicly stated that they believe the death sentence will be a crime deterrent. Jack Warner in particular has said it more than once.

This death sentence thing is such a emotionally-exploitative political football it eh funny. Wake me up when people get as worked up over the DNA lab legislation and other practical crime-deterring plans.

[Aaron 2NR]

^ deterrent doesn't mean stop!

if you break a rule, you will be punished..may not be so severe the first time but the 2nd and 3rd time you do it, you will feel the full brunt...

same thing like you reaching to work late, you will get warned and which may lead to termination....

many criminals know if they are caught, they would be fed and taken care of my the state....if they know that if they are convicted, they will be executed, dont you think they would think twice??

this is why the government was putting the penalty in place now so that those who are convicted now, wouldnt get off the hook when the other parts of the puzzle are implemented.....

[RASC]

ok where do i start....

yes i do support the death penalty...as well as the bill that the government had before parliament...no where did the government say it is going to stop crime but they are going to enforce the death penalty as the highest form of conviction in the land.

if we recall from Imbert's speech.....the privy council told us in three landmark decisions in 93, 03,04 that our laws are so tightly worded that the privy council has said that even if they wanted to, they cannot interfere with the imposition of the mandatory death penalty for murder in T&T.....

Under the human right's act, after being convicted a person has to be executive before 5 yrs has passed otherwise it would be illegal to execute said person....

Under our current constitution there is so time limit in which a person has to appeal his conviction and the government wanted to amend the constitution, so that, after being convicted a person has 12 mths to appeal and be heard by the appeal courts and human rights commission.....the PNM then asked for it to be changed to 18 mths because the appeal courts usually take sometime to respond....


This was just one of the plans that the government were going to rule out in its fight against crime. ie. setting a time limit on appeals for those on death row.....
Well all that is doing is giving more legal powers to the defense attorneys.

1. If within the 18 month period, a response is NOT heard...the defense then has ammunition with which they can postpone their clients impending execution even more. Ramlogan tried to make it seem as if "well don't worry even if the 12 (18) month period has passed, we will carry out the execution". We all know that will NOT happen in reality, as the lawyers would simply say "it's unconstitutional-because we aren't fully aware of the IHRC ruling"...and we will just be going back and forth in a see-saw circle. Next thing you know 5 years reach, can't do anything.

OR

2. If within the 18 month period a response IS heard from the IHRC-and it's in total opposite to our ruling...the State would constitutionally have NO prosecution with which to attack with, and we're stuck with Criminal X eating his supper til the end of his days. If it were not in the constitution at least we could stand a chance fighting it.

The point is this...WHY on Earth even inject the IHRC into the fray? Why even give the option? It's just gonna make it even harder for us to execute criminals. Defense attorneys live for finding loop holes.


The government is in the process to bring legislation to construct a DNA lab, setting up a database and include it in its fight against crime.....

[Aaron 2NR]

a criminal already has the right under the law of the land to take up a case with the UN in cases where they think their human rights are being taken advantage of....

IT IS ALREADY THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE!....

what the government is doing, is setting a time period for this to be done...

[zoom rader]

a criminal already has the right under the law of the land to take up a case with the UN in cases where they think their human rights are being taken advantage of....

IT IS ALREADY THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE!....

what the government is doing, is setting a time period for this to be done...

Dude, dont waste time with these cult clowns here. You cant reason with a PNM cult clown. One of them dont even live here and is not affected by crime.

[RASC]

a criminal already has the right under the law of the land to take up a case with the UN in cases where they think their human rights are being taken advantage of....

IT IS ALREADY THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE!....

what the government is doing, is setting a time period for this to be done...

Yes and in the process making it a Constitutional right to be exploited by crafty lawyers.
...and worse you attach a time limit. The time is too short...it's going to be used AGAINST the prosecution.

Again, let's say the 18 months past, we say OKAY-we gonna hang him. They decided to go to the Privy Council-who are then gonna examine our constitution and see "well you only gave 18 months as a constitutional right...that's a bit short no? Let's wait some more time"

...within that time period the IHRC can then come and say Nope don't hang him, we go back to the Privy Council and they say "Well the IHRC rights are entrenched in your constitution you can't ignore their ruling"

Without the IHRC entrenched in our constitution we could've ignored or even fought the case tooth and nail. Now with it entrenched in our constitution our sovereignty is being diminished.

[zoom rader]

a criminal already has the right under the law of the land to take up a case with the UN in cases where they think their human rights are being taken advantage of....

IT IS ALREADY THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE!....

what the government is doing, is setting a time period for this to be done...

Yes and in the process making it a Constitutional right to be exploited by crafty lawyers.
...and worse you attach a time limit. The time is too short...it's going to be used AGAINST the prosecution.

Again, let's say the 18 months past, we say OKAY-we gonna hang him. They decided to go to the Privy Council-who are then gonna examine our constitution and see "well you only gave 18 months as a constitutional right...that's a bit short no? Let's wait some more time"

...within that time period the IHRC can then come and say Nope don't hang him, we go back to the Privy Council and they say "Well the IHRC rights are entrenched in your constitution you can't ignore their ruling"

Without the IHRC entrenched in our constitution we could've ignored or even fought the case tooth and nail. Now with it entrenched in our constitution our sovereignty is being diminished.

So RASC tell us what is the best way to deal on this?

[RASC]

Aaron why hasn't the Bill been made public?

[RASC]

a criminal already has the right under the law of the land to take up a case with the UN in cases where they think their human rights are being taken advantage of....

IT IS ALREADY THERE IN BLACK AND WHITE!....

what the government is doing, is setting a time period for this to be done...

Yes and in the process making it a Constitutional right to be exploited by crafty lawyers.
...and worse you attach a time limit. The time is too short...it's going to be used AGAINST the prosecution.

Again, let's say the 18 months past, we say OKAY-we gonna hang him. They decided to go to the Privy Council-who are then gonna examine our constitution and see "well you only gave 18 months as a constitutional right...that's a bit short no? Let's wait some more time"

...within that time period the IHRC can then come and say Nope don't hang him, we go back to the Privy Council and they say "Well the IHRC rights are entrenched in your constitution you can't ignore their ruling"

Without the IHRC entrenched in our constitution we could've ignored or even fought the case tooth and nail. Now with it entrenched in our constitution our sovereignty is being diminished.

So RASC tell us what is the best way to deal on this?

CCJ simple.

Forget the Privy Council.
Forget IHRC as part of our constitution.

We need to be in charge of our own!

[RASC]

Look, the IHRC and the Privy Council do not our will at heart.
They are OVERLY liberal organisations that do not see the execution of any convicted murders as a way to deter crime.

We need to MOVE away from these two institutions.

One of them we can't technically move away from-the IHRC, but we can buffer their sphere of influence by swiftly engaging in the CCJ.

[Aaron 2NR]

so RASC why didn't uncle Rowley sit down and work together with the PM instead of voting No....he forgot he represent his constituents and not himself...he supposed to put his emotions aside and think country first...


oh wait...he doesn't

[RASC]

so RASC why didn't uncle Rowley sit down and work together with the PM instead of voting No....he forgot he represent his constituents and not himself...he supposed to put his emotions aside and think country first...


oh wait...he doesn't

Sit down with who...Kamaliar and Ramlogan...at that 11th hour?
You joking right?

Let's see:

1. They were already at each other's throats-a private sit down would've gotten even worse. Both he and Ramlogan are NOT backing down...no barrier between them-then what?

2. As stated before Ramlogan wanted to purposely entrench it into the constitution, repeated calls were made to make it a separate law, not within the constitution. Level the playing field in OUR favor and not the favor of the convicted death row inmate. It was flatly refused.

3. You come into parliament trying to intimidate the other side, and when you extend your fake olive branch you expect the opposition to bow before you? Nonsense... reshape the bill, take out that IHRC clause and let the discussions reopen in June.

[zoom rader]

Look, the IHRC and the Privy Council do not our will at heart.
They are OVERLY liberal organisations that do not see the execution of any convicted murders as a way to deter crime.

We need to MOVE away from these two institutions.

One of them we can't technically move away from-the IHRC, but we can buffer their sphere of influence by swiftly engaging in the CCJ.

But RASC can we really trust the CCJ. God forbid if the PNM was to steal another election and then appoint PNM judges where would this leave us?

[Humes]

many criminals know if they are caught, they would be fed and taken care of my the state....if they know that if they are convicted, they will be executed, dont you think they would think twice??

You applying civilian thinking to a criminal mind. It doesn't work like that. Just by getting involved in gangs, they're running a risk of death thousands of times higher than being caught and executed by the State. And that doesn't deter them. They enter that lifestyle gladly and flaunt it. They accept their mortality.

So how would the death sentence be any different?

Academic and scientific studies have proven it isn't a deterrent. Even basic common sense would clearly indicate otherwise. What else yuh want again?

But yuh right about one thing: Deterrent isn't stop. Deterrent is even better than stop. Deterrent means preventing it from happening at all.

The punishment for murder is already life in prison. Who getting out to murder a second and third time.

You really thinking this through?

[Aaron 2NR]

^ many of the times, ppl who are charged and convicted for murder are not first time offenders of any crime...they often carry a theft charge or something before....that was my point...some ppl know it is safer for them inside jail and continue to do crime when they are on the outside...

when they are in prison, they dont have to hustle for a meal or a place to sleep.....so if they commit murder, they dont business cuz at the end of the day, the victim's family paying for them to eat

[RASC]

Look, the IHRC and the Privy Council do not our will at heart.
They are OVERLY liberal organisations that do not see the execution of any convicted murders as a way to deter crime.

We need to MOVE away from these two institutions.

One of them we can't technically move away from-the IHRC, but we can buffer their sphere of influence by swiftly engaging in the CCJ.

But RASC can we really trust the CCJ. God forbid if the PNM was to steal another election and then appoint PNM judges where would this leave us?

But you can trust some white man, in London

They live a totally different lifestyle than us. Almost nothing is the same with regards to livelihood. Culture, language and values totally different. They would stand by Amnesty International and the IHRC anyday over the views of 7 Million little black and brown tar babies in the sun.

Get real...open your eyes for once. All the Privy Council does is anger us Caribbean ppl with their foolish rhetoric. We're independent for a reason...let's start acting as such.

[Humes]

^ many of the times, ppl who are charged and convicted for murder are not first time offenders of any crime...they often carry a theft charge or something before....that was my point...some ppl know it is safer for them inside jail and continue to do crime when they are on the outside...

when they are in prison, they dont have to hustle for a meal or a place to sleep.....so if they commit murder, they dont business cuz at the end of the day, the victim's family paying for them to eat

Aaron 2NR, yuh living in a dream world. Yuh talkin rubbish. I'm sorry, but there's no other way to put it. Criminals don't like jail. End of story. They commit crimes boldly because they don't think they'll be caught.

Problems aren't solved by concocting imaginary emotionally-fueled scenarios in your head. Problems are solved by facing reality and moving accordingly.

[EFFECTIC DESIGNS]

Even if by some miracle we managed to hang Criminals.
The next day this country would be flooded with Human Rights Activists from around the world protesting and all that kinda nonsense.

In the Liberal world everybody have rights eh. Even animals. How did human rights start?
We have Adolf Hitler and World War 2 to thank for that.

So its best the government look at ways to sentence Criminals to Life. With hard labor.
Stop wasting time with this hanging, Human Rights Council will not allow this. Their mission is to protect Criminals.

Our solution is to catch Criminals, Give them LIFE with Hard Labor, Make them plant food to feed the nation in the hot sun each and everyday.

This is worst than death penalty.

[RASC]

^ many of the times, ppl who are charged and convicted for murder are not first time offenders of any crime...they often carry a theft charge or something before....that was my point...some ppl know it is safer for them inside jail and continue to do crime when they are on the outside...

when they are in prison, they dont have to hustle for a meal or a place to sleep.....so if they commit murder, they dont business cuz at the end of the day, the victim's family paying for them to eat

Aaron 2NR, yuh living in a dream world. Yuh talkin rubbish. I'm sorry, but there's no other way to put it. Criminals don't like jail. End of story. They commit crimes boldly because they don't think they'll be caught.

Problems aren't solved by concocting imaginary emotionally-fueled scenarios in your head. Problems are solved by facing reality and moving accordingly.

You can tell alot of them have never been in a jail or spoken to ex cons...the vast majority are scared shittless of jail. They rather die in the streets. They've already made up their minds that they're gonna die doing "this".

[SUPAstarr]

OK,i understand what Aaron is sayin, but looking at past history IMO the privy council has always been a stumbling block, an thats not any kinda of revalation. Why isnt the exhaustive appeal process been dealt with? What sense does it make to bring this bill is you are jus cleaning up the edges but not REALLY helping the process.

[RASC]

OK,i understand what Aaron is sayin, but looking at past history IMO the privy council has always been a stumbling block, an thats not any kinda of revalation. Why isnt the exhaustive appeal process been dealt with? What sense does it make to bring this bill is you are jus cleaning up the edges but not REALLY helping the process.

Because, there is no overall holistic plan.

You can't see that yet? How can a party full of lawyers not be aware that this cannot be held out for long...it's only so long we could fight the Privy Council as Europe becomes more and more socially liberal? PLUS you injecting IHRC clauses into our constitution...our state prosecutors won't stand a chance now.

They should've used this time to bolster a CCJ push or our OWN ultimate high court.

We're independent...we're a republic...let us start acting like that move ahead with our own system please.

[5onDfloor]

^^ because they passing bill for passing bill sake.....and want to condemn the PNM for not supporting the bill and in so doing its "blame the PNM syndrome"....

The reason why they wont amend it so we wont have to go the Privy council is simple.....If they loose they marbles and remove the Privy Council as our Highest Appeal Court what would that mean for they boys Ish & Steve who are still in jail?

[RASC]

^^ because they passing bill for passing bill sake.....and want to condemn the PNM for not supporting the bill and in so doing its "blame the PNM syndrome"....

The reason why they wont amend it so we wont have to go the Privy council is simple.....If they loose they marbles and remove the Privy Council as our Highest Appeal Court what would that mean for they boys Ish & Steve who are still in jail?

It didn't even dawn on me. Makes complete sense.
supaSTARR really made a valid point, why are we adding to the complication...why aren't we taking steps to shorten the process, or be our own judge...

This whole thing seemed extremely weird to me. Not to mention how emotional the gov't got when the opposition refused to hear anymore. There is something much bigger riding on this. Rowley was right not to meet with these ppl.

[eyephone]

^^^

Phokin jacaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrse.

[eyephone]

Turn allyuh tv to winTV and hear Vernon De Lima speak about this topic.

[Dirty Face]

^ they have security so they fear nothing......lets see those smiles when one of their loved ones die

MP's are afforded security...? Pray tell....

YOU know let me summarise this topic because it appears some cant read and understand

1) Bill says 12 months to appeal, appeal is to be heard by the people who are AGAINST HANGINGS to begin with, essentially, after youre convicted in Trini court of the murder (a less than 20% chance to begin with) aside from your entitled local appeal, you are allowed to appeal to the people who dont want you to be hung.

2) If this is all not concluded in 12 months- a 100m race in terms of usual legal timeframes - then you cannot be hung, regardless of if you are eventually found able to hang by ALL bodies/council/etc

This is the bill that allyuh want the PNM to support? This is the bill that supposed to INCREASE hangings?? Na man.

3) A point that has not been mentioned anywhere - Would the passing of this bill not then make ALL PEOPLE CURRENTLY ON DEATH ROW incapable of being hung? After all they are WAY past their 12 months not so??

[Humes]

^ many of the times, ppl who are charged and convicted for murder are not first time offenders of any crime...they often carry a theft charge or something before....that was my point...some ppl know it is safer for them inside jail and continue to do crime when they are on the outside...

when they are in prison, they dont have to hustle for a meal or a place to sleep.....so if they commit murder, they dont business cuz at the end of the day, the victim's family paying for them to eat

Aaron 2NR, yuh living in a dream world. Yuh talkin rubbish. I'm sorry, but there's no other way to put it. Criminals don't like jail. End of story. They commit crimes boldly because they don't think they'll be caught.

Problems aren't solved by concocting imaginary emotionally-fueled scenarios in your head. Problems are solved by facing reality and moving accordingly.

You can tell alot of them have never been in a jail or spoken to ex cons...the vast majority are scared shittless of jail. They rather die in the streets. They've already made up their minds that they're gonna die doing "this".

Precisely. And the thing is, it's not even some hidden truth that you can only find if you hang out with criminals. It's clear in the actions of criminals and pop culture.

That whole "they doh business because we payin fuh free room and board in jail" rubbish is the result of taking the kinda ole talk yuh see on this forum too seriously.

At the end of the day my concern is not whether the lives of murderers are spared, but the amount of time, emotion and energy is being focused on the gravedigger when is really a doctor we need.