ADVICE NEEDED ON SUBARU'S AND BOOST CONTROLLERS

[Polydor]

*EDITED*


... I'll sit this one out and let the Subie guys ketch kixx.

As I've done until this post.....

[Rx]

most posts made in this thread belong in the ole talk forum

[riderz]

Hey RS200 I understand where you are coming from now. With all that you have read you are looking at the physical principles of combustion and by right what you explained and believe should work on any motor. There are a few variables that you didnt research that are peculiar to the subaru ECUs not motors.

The motor is like any other. So your principles are the same. Subaru engineers took a different approach to controlling the motor, and as such what others are saying is that the normal aftermarket stuff works against this. Now many have used EBC, Emanage sutff etc. I did. The car worked fine. Or so I thought. I sold all that stuff and tuned my car myself. Didnt fedex anything. Just studied the logs, maps and road dynos and looked at the det values. Made adjustments and reflashed.

I take your point about boost on the fly. Didnt consider other drivers and wanting to turn down boost etc. But you would not believe how much problems the EBC cause that the driver is unaware of. Another thing, I see a lot of owners raising fuel to compensate for boost by buying aftermarket stuff. With the Subaru, this is not necessary, that could happen from the ECU. In fact when you raise boost, fuel is automatically added. It doesnt run lean as most think.

Also it is cheaper to ROM TUNE than buying these aftermarket ECUs. Lets not look at ECUTEK, they are truely expensive. But there are ROM TUNERs in TT doing the same thing for less than purchasing a PROFEC BC. You can get Stage 2 Maps quickly customed for your application. Scoobytnt.com has a lot of information on this.

I have logged a lot of STi in Trinidad and Tobago and all of them come with some seriously rich maps. In tuning them we bring down ign for the fuel we have here and then tune for power, yep the same thing that you where saying, except the values for the maps are 4d (X,Y Z(normally a high to low value, not on and off). Installing FC or EBC work on a 2D and 3D mapping (X,Y,Z). Something like a linear arrangement. And worst yet the EBC ignores the failsafe of the Stock ECU.

So everybody is right, but there are some wrong assumptions here.

RS200 I know you are well researched into this topic, but I would not want other subaru owners to make the same foolish mistakes I made. Piggy backs and EBC are bad. Aftermarket ECUs and ROM Tunes are your better bet. Piggybacks cannot manipulate the Stock ECU properly, it stops it from learning.

Hope this helps and didnt offend. If people still doubt, bring your WRX or STI and I would show you what I am saying. The proof is in your car sitting in your ECU. It tells everything.

[Alpha_2nr]

I have logged a lot of STi in Trinidad and Tobago and all of them come with some seriously rich maps. In tuning them we bring down ign for the fuel we have here and then tune for power, yep the same thing that you where saying, except the values for the maps are 4d (X,Y Z(normally a high to low value, not on and off). Installing FC or EBC work on a 2D and 3D mapping (X,Y,Z). Something like a linear arrangement. And worst yet the EBC ignores the failsafe of the Stock ECU.

Exactly...this is something folks aren't aware of.

[Bezman]

riderz, you answer was more of what i was looking for...

i can truely understand how tuning your ROM tune to your specific application can have its benefits - and as you are tuning and can tune Rom tunes locally then thats perfect. cause you can set up the maps for the specific application and even for different boost levels etc..

BUT

please explain the 4d stuff, i have searched and couldnt find anything on it.

thanks

[Alpha_2nr]

Piggybacks cannot manipulate the Stock ECU properly, it stops it from learning.

Something to consider also folks, the Scubie ECU also comes with a "learning programme", which is itself can be maniuplated independently of the ECU map. The ECU's learning programme does exactly what it says....it tries to get more power from the car, given it's current conditions. In fact, if a car is ROM tuned up to a certain hp/tq figure, that owner can possibly expect even more horsepower as the car "learns".....

Reflashing doesn't affect the learning programme - in fact, the learning programme can be changed e.g. a USDM ECU can be updated with JDM learning for even better performance after a reflash

[riderz]

ok, its like this, if you look at 3d maps that is plotted again an X,Y,Z axis.

But most of the maps in the Scooby ECUs also allow the Z axis to contain mutliple values. For instance the Fuel Maps are calculated Load (X) RPM (Y) and AFR (Z) but the AFR is used to futher calculate the injector opening timing. So the Z axis is actually subdivided into a formula that could be anything. As a result the Z axis adds another dimension to the calculation. 4D

Piggy Backs dont do that. They accomplish the same thing off multiple 3D maps. Look at the Emanage Ulitmate for instance. To increase fuel it works off a percentage of what is already there.

[dry]

^^ that's not quite correct. (re 4d, etc.. It's multiple 2D maps - fuel, timing).

ALL ECU's have a basic 2D map.. LOAD vs RPM. on top of that, there are correction maps for external conditions such as water temp, air temp, etc.

For "L-Jetro" systems, LOAD is the MAF voltage. For "D-Jetro", LOAD is the MAP voltage. MAP is linear, so MAP voltage directly corresponds to boost. Higher voltage = higher MAP voltage = higher LOAD.

MAF response is NOT linear. It depends on air density, flow, etc etc.

The point though is that the ECU first looks at the 2D map (the current RPM and the current LOAD) before doing anything. The 3rd dimension if you want to call it that is the actual value programmed in to it, wether injection time, or the ignition time to use.

Depending on the programs interface, it'll either let you specify the injection time directly in milliseconds, or by some target AFR. Whether or not you get the intended AFR is up to the rest of the correction factors like air temp, etc etc.

After all that, the ECU will then check the other correction maps, e.g. retard timing with higher coolant temp, and is independent of the load and rpm used. The computer will ALWAYS remove e.g. 5 degrees of timing over the defined 2D map at 80*C coolant temp.

Raising boost puts you in another area of the map... more boost = more load.

A piggyback like the emanage is just another big 3d correction map. As long as all other conditions are the same when you programmed the emanage, it'll be consistent and perform well.

Typically, you want to "dumb down" the stock ECU so that the resulting map due to the emanage is not changed. You can do that by bypassing the knock sensor and o2 sensors.

cliff notes:

raising boost on a stock ECU is bad with our fuel. it was programmed with higher octane in mind. nothing is wrong with raising boost levels on a stock computer if you have the fuel to support it.

[W2J]

MAF response is NOT linear. It depends on air density, flow, etc etc.

Thats only if the maf is karmon..

[riderz]

Hmmmm, you are correct but we are not speaking of nissan or toyota maps. The EJ20 maps are 4d. Infact most tuners refer to is as i3d (intelligent 3d). So the extra is now being termed 4d. Now raising boost in a Suby ECU is not bad because of our fuel. Our fuel + boost increases the likely of detonation, once the ecu is reflashed with ign maps to compensate for this (as we have been doing for months now) the car runs safe with higher boost. (And yes we can verify that the car is running safe)

Everything else you explained is true, theoretically but the Scooby ECUs add more stuff than that. So I am desputing the information you provided as you so abruptly did to mine, I am just letting you know that you are making assumption on a system that was reengineered over what is accustomed out there.

Another thing, the Subaru maps do not remove timing due to temp unless a programmer defines that. The JDM ECUs come with those values zeroed out. All the WRX and STi I have pulled ROMs for were like that. But you can define it. It is better though to log the car on the stock ROM and see where the car is detecting knock and pull timing in those areas. That way on the next reflash the car would be happier with that area.

Now all the maps on the ECUs are not 2d. Just laid out that way. If you study IT, you would know that once you start moving out of binary code into HEX you are allowing for multiple functions of the ECU. More dimensions. Dont let the GUI representation you see on the program supplied fool you. It is more than 2d. 2D works X vs Y etc. But the Z value is the formula. If it was a true 3d the values would be X,Y,Z with Z being a fixed value not part to another formula.

So I am not describing what we see in the windows program but what happens in the ECU itself.

The information you provided Dry is correct but incomplete thats all.

Oh and please, Subaru ECUs are not like the remainder (nissan etc). Its different. They do not respond well to Piggybacks. Those that may want to post this fact as untruth please do so once you have personnally logged the data from a Subaru.

Yes I know that some people have piggubacks and EBC in there STi and WRX I know the car works. The ECU has been stripped of some of its main functions and handed it over to these other devices. It can no longer safe the engine from knock once this happens. The Stock ECU can exceed more than any piggyback can provide. I am willing to provide a demo on the tuning process if you want proof. I can speak from experience because I have done both, piggy backs and ROM Tuning. The later has proven to be safer, more powerful and more compatible with my STi.

With my Greddy stuff I made 240whp and 230wftlbstq. Now with all that stuff out and my ROM tuned I am making 280whp and 270wftlbstq.

I am sure someone is going to ask how I know this as we have no 4WD dynos. My answer is road dynos. You could decide if its accurate or not. I already know thank you.

[riderz]

Two other cars we tuned in Trinidad recently

STi Stock gained 35whp and 30wftlbstq

WRX gained about 14, and 10

Mine still in progress. but with significant gains so far.

[riderz]

raising boost on a stock ECU is bad with our fuel. it was programmed with higher octane in mind. nothing is wrong with raising boost levels on a stock computer if you have the fuel to support it.

I speak specifically on WRX and STi now.

This is not entirely true. I have logged STi working with more than stock boost and no knock was picked up. Then I saw others with aftermarket BC and plenty knock. Cant explain why, but it varies from car to car.

The fuel maps are extremely rich but so are the advance on the ign maps. My car is using stock ign maps and local fuel with some of my fuel maps leaned a little. And so far no knock. My entire setup is stock to include stock airbox. THe only modes are rescaled injectors and 3inch exhaust. Car running 20psi with increase Wastegate to spool to 20psi @3500rpm.

Now with most cars (subarus)raising boost at the ECU would allow the ecu to manage all the parameters better. Raising boost externally to the ECU would cause the ecu to be seeing boost pressure and then comparing it to the maps. Obviously boost would be higher so it would turn down the WG and compare again. When it realises that it isnt controlling the pressure properly it would try to limp the engine thru dropping the IAM and shutting down the WG.

[dry]

raising boost on a stock ECU is bad with our fuel. it was programmed with higher octane in mind. nothing is wrong with raising boost levels on a stock computer if you have the fuel to support it.

I speak specifically on WRX and STi now.

This is not entirely true. I have logged STi working with more than stock boost and no knock was picked up. Then I saw others with aftermarket BC and plenty knock. Cant explain why, but it varies from car to car.

you cannot, under any circumstance, seriously tune ANY car for power without an idea of the octane you're using.

some knock and some don't because of the different tolerances in the specific engine, as well as the variation in conditions. add another variable with the fuel.

on a technical level, you can't make a blanket statement that "raising boost is bad". your test conditions were using crap fuel. use the fuel it was programmed for and the results would be much different.

[W2J]

Riderz question have you timed your car ? if so what gains have you gotten by 40hp / tq more ?

[dry]

Hmmmm, you are correct but we are not speaking of nissan or toyota maps. The EJ20 maps are 4d. Infact most tuners refer to is as i3d (intelligent 3d). So the extra is now being termed 4d. Now raising boost in a Suby ECU is not bad because of our fuel. Our fuel + boost increases the likely of detonation, once the ecu is reflashed with ign maps to compensate for this (as we have been doing for months now) the car runs safe with higher boost. (And yes we can verify that the car is running safe)

Everything else you explained is true, theoretically but the Scooby ECUs add more stuff than that. So I am desputing the information you provided as you so abruptly did to mine, I am just letting you know that you are making assumption on a system that was reengineered over what is accustomed out there.

Another thing, the Subaru maps do not remove timing due to temp unless a programmer defines that. The JDM ECUs come with those values zeroed out. All the WRX and STi I have pulled ROMs for were like that. But you can define it. It is better though to log the car on the stock ROM and see where the car is detecting knock and pull timing in those areas. That way on the next reflash the car would be happier with that area.

the fact remains that there is a correction map for temperature. because it's zerod out doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

it still stands that any ecu is a 2d map. load and rpm. above that, correction maps are used to determine the final value.

Now all the maps on the ECUs are not 2d. Just laid out that way. If you study IT, you would know that once you start moving out of binary code into HEX you are allowing for multiple functions of the ECU. More dimensions. Dont let the GUI representation you see on the program supplied fool you. It is more than 2d. 2D works X vs Y etc. But the Z value is the formula. If it was a true 3d the values would be X,Y,Z with Z being a fixed value not part to another formula.

So I am not describing what we see in the windows program but what happens in the ECU itself.

it doesn't matter how its laid out for storage. just like a jpeg file is stored as one big number, the interpretation is important. the memory of any computer can only be stored linearly. either way you cut it, the ecu does a lookup on a fixed size 2d map... e.g. 16x16, 32x32, etc. h

however you choose to look at it, wether a bunch of 1000 numbers in a line, or in a grid, it works the same basic way -- load vs rpm, then corrections on top.

The information you provided Dry is correct but incomplete thats all.

Oh and please, Subaru ECUs are not like the remainder (nissan etc). Its different. They do not respond well to Piggybacks. Those that may want to post this fact as untruth please do so once you have personnally logged the data from a Subaru.

it's NOT a magic car... nor is it a magic engine or a magic ecu. ALL ecus work the same basic way. the newer subaru ecu's might add more correction and safety maps than a typical 80s era ecu, but it still goes right back down to a simple 2d load vs rpm map.

a 3d map would be e.g. load vs rpm vs tps, where you can program a specific value based on load, rpm AND tps. but you don't. you specify a correction map overlaid AFTER the value is gotten off the 2D map.

as i said... once you provide a fixed feedback from the o2 and knock sensors, the ECU will behave in the same way all the time, even with a piggyback installed.

again... the blanket statement that you can't just raise boost is incorrect. you CAN raise boost if your octane supports it. it WILL be in a different area of the ECU's maps.

[dry]

Everything else you explained is true, theoretically but the Scooby ECUs add more stuff than that. So I am desputing the information you provided as you so abruptly did to mine, I am just letting you know that you are making assumption on a system that was reengineered over what is accustomed out there.

please don't take my responses as disputing you. you are obviously knowledgable with sti's, but you're also over-complicating the basic princicples of any engine management system, including subaru.

[Bezman]

thanks dry i knew i wasnt going mad...

[riderz]

You know something I refuse to argue with you. Either I am not explaining myself correctly or your perception of tuning is not allowing you to realise that these ECUs are slightly different.

I speak from experience on both sides, piggyback and ROM Tuning. Maybe we are trying to accomplish the same point maybe not. I know what I am talking about and I dont make blanket statments. As I said if you have not log one of these cars with piggyback or EBC you really cant put principles in here. I am willing to show you. IF you dont want to, not a problem.

For those who wish may own specfically WRX or STi I implore you to take what I say with a pinch of salt and do some research on your own. If you think I am talking thru my behind please let me prove my point. I love these cars and I dont like the fact that you can be potentially damaging it.

Dry what you said about the mapping is partly correct but there is still a lot you left out. I am not talking about the basics of engine tuning, because that will take a lot of time explaining the ABCs XYZs but I can tell you piggybacks are bad for the Subarus not other cars. I dont have the authority to speak about other cars.

RS200 I never thought you were going mad. You were on, with what you were saying but I thought this thread was on the Subarus not other cars. So I didnt generalise I spoke specfically about what I know on these cars. My experience, training and personally research are my guides and authority to speak on the matter.

So fellas, no I didnt take anything personal and you views are welcomed. I would like to say though, if you are right only the speed shoppes and aftermarket vendors would benefit. If you are wrong what are the conseqencies to the readers who may follow. I am willing for someone to prove me wrong, and also willing to prove that I am right.

[riderz]

raising boost on a stock ECU is bad with our fuel. it was programmed with higher octane in mind. nothing is wrong with raising boost levels on a stock computer if you have the fuel to support it.

I speak specifically on WRX and STi now.

This is not entirely true. I have logged STi working with more than stock boost and no knock was picked up. Then I saw others with aftermarket BC and plenty knock. Cant explain why, but it varies from car to car.

you cannot, under any circumstance, seriously tune ANY car for power without an idea of the octane you're using.

some knock and some don't because of the different tolerances in the specific engine, as well as the variation in conditions. add another variable with the fuel.

on a technical level, you can't make a blanket statement that "raising boost is bad". your test conditions were using crap fuel. use the fuel it was programmed for and the results would be much different.

Now I know exactly what octane I am using.

Basic principles. Heat leads to detonation.

The following conditions contribute to heat.

Hot intake gases
Low Octane Fuel
Hot Plugs
Advance Ign

When you remove any of these conditions (and I know there are more but I am talking about these) you lessen the chances of knock.

When tuning the Subarus I log on the gas the owner is accustomed using. That way the fuel conditions are the same. I prefer to tune at the hottest time of the day, so I am tuning under the worst conditions. From there the changes are made.

Now when I said raising the boost is bad, I meant externally to the ECU. You can raise boost but its better from the ECU. Dry let me ask you a direct question. Do you prefer to let the Subaru manage boost or you believe in EBCs.

If you do believe in EBCs, please explain to any potential or current user reading this thread, how this EBC could affect the ECU and IAM.

Thanks, you may know something that I missed.

[riderz]

Riderz question have you timed your car ? if so what gains have you gotten by 40hp / tq more ?

Now this is a question of much contention. I dont believe that timing a car can indicate the true performance of the car. I believe that dynos do.

Unfortunately I would like to time the car just to see how different it is.

Before tuning when I had the WRX I used the GTECH RR and in those days my best time on the track was 14.0s flat the GTECH always reported .05 to .1 off the XMAS Tree. That was using aftermarket parts FM and EBCs. Since my conversion and tuning, I have not gotten on the track, but I have GTECH up to yesterday 12.9s. So I am estimated worst on the track 13.1 or 13.2. Please not I am an aweful drag driver. LOL

So there it is.

[dry]

eriously... nobody is doubting you... don't be getting them all up in a bunch.

all that's being said, is that the subaru ecu is nothing special in the world of engine management.

the most significant factor that we face when raising boost is our low octane fuel. nothing is wrong with raising boost with an EBC and using higher octane fuel on the stock ecu. save for the factory boost limiter, i beg you to show us otherwise.

[dry]

Now when I said raising the boost is bad, I meant externally to the ECU. You can raise boost but its better from the ECU. Dry let me ask you a direct question. Do you prefer to let the Subaru manage boost or you believe in EBCs.

If you do believe in EBCs, please explain to any potential or current user reading this thread, how this EBC could affect the ECU and IAM.

Thanks, you may know something that I missed.

It doesn't make a difference whether it's raised from the ECU or an EBC. Both control some type of solenoid on the wastegate and the end result is the same -- the primary load sensor (MAF) of the ECU "sees" more air coming in and, uses the approriate load cell in the ECU's mapping for fuel and timing.

The advantage of the EBC is that it's easier to make changes to the boost level, rather than having to reflash.

Consider the situation where you tune your ECU at 18 psi. For your preferred method, getting one bad batch of gas means you have to granny drive it until the next fillup, or retune.

With an EBC, I can simply switch off the boost controller or turn it down a notch the minute I hear detonation.

[riderz]

I wasnt sure before but I am sure now. My friend, when you can explain to those reading in this thread the simple question I asked about the IAM, I will continue to believe you know very little about the Subaru ECU.

EBC, FM, BC, Spd Cuts. All bad.

You right on the fuel thing. Though ....I will give you points.

But you dont know, refuse to listen and research.

please visit http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80

do some reading in there. And dont be offended. I dont know much about nissan or toyota and from what I heard you do. So all of us have limitations.

Oh and another thing, why would I want to turn down boost when the car can be tuned for high boost and run safe. You want to listen to detonation, I prefer to see the data.

When you log the ECU you can see the exact place where the car is knocking, not working on assumptions or reading the tach. You can see rpm vs load and work from there. I am planning a demo. If you want to check it out let me know.

[riderz]

eriously... nobody is doubting you... don't be getting them all up in a bunch.

all that's being said, is that the subaru ecu is nothing special in the world of engine management.

the most significant factor that we face when raising boost is our low octane fuel. nothing is wrong with raising boost with an EBC and using higher octane fuel on the stock ecu. save for the factory boost limiter, i beg you to show us otherwise.

As I said before I can show otherwise, just let me know time and place

[dry]

I wasnt sure before but I am sure now. My friend, when you can explain to those reading in this thread the simple question I asked about the IAM, I will continue to believe you know very little about the Subaru ECU.

EBC, FM, BC, Spd Cuts. All bad.

You right on the fuel thing. Though ....I will give you points.

But you dont know, refuse to listen and research.

please visit http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=80

do some reading in there. And dont be offended. I dont know much about nissan or toyota and from what I heard you do. So all of us have limitations.

Oh and another thing, why would I want to turn down boost when the car can be tuned for high boost and run safe. You want to listen to detonation, I prefer to see the data.

When you log the ECU you can see the exact place where the car is knocking, not working on assumptions or reading the tach. You can see rpm vs load and work from there. I am planning a demo. If you want to check it out let me know.

your IAM technology has been around since the 80s on mitsu Eclipse ECU's. It's nothing new, neither is it anything significant or special. Again, it's just another correction map. The whole idea of retuning an ECU is to prevent knock in the first place... not rely stock ECU having to throw timing back when it knocks.

Note that I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You asked a question, I answered. You prefer to datalog every single day and rom tune every time you drive your car... kudos to you.

I'll give you a little more time to datalog different batches of gas, even from the same station... See how much our octane varies, and conversely knock levels, even with the same tune.

Have you ever datalogged the stock maps with higher octane fuel, maybe a gallon of C16 to a half tank of NP Premium?

[riderz]

Yep, and the IAM is not a map. Its just a value that represents how much of a map is being used. Its also a value that says weather or not the car is happy with the gas its recieving.

C16 gas would cause the car to act happy. Higher octane less heat. But ask yourself this. If the JDM STI or WRX comes stock to run on 98octane fuel, wouldnt you be better off with the ECU tuned to run 93octane fuel with no knock and put out more HP and TQ. Imagine running 17psi all the time with a WRX or 24psi all the time with a STi with no external mods.

You would be putting out more than 60hp+ without endangering the car. Thats what I am saying. Gas in TT is not the best for these vehicles. Granted. But the ECU can be tuned for it. It takes time, patience and experience.

Hey BTW does anybody know of any STi doing low 12s running stock mods. I would like to know for reference. My next project is an 04 STi. Aiming for 11s on pump gas with little mods. Probably injectors and exhaust like what I have now.

[riderz]

Note that I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You asked a question, I answered. You prefer to datalog every single day and rom tune every time you drive your car... kudos to you.

I'll give you a little more time to datalog different batches of gas, even from the same station... See how much our octane varies, and conversely knock levels, even with the same tune.

Have you ever datalogged the stock maps with higher octane fuel, maybe a gallon of C16 to a half tank of NP Premium?

Funny you should mention that. It happened to me before. In fact I went on a crusade taking gas from different stations, only dropping $40.00 and running till empty. Did that for about 3 weeks. I soon realised that the only gas station in Arima thats safe is the NP quickshoppe. All the rest I got endless worries. In fact one time I had to drain the tank. Now I know.

I dont ROM tune everyday, BTW, I log everyday as I have a carputer installing in the car anyway for that very purpose. As well I dont like the whole gauge setup so the Touchscreen LCD screen is better to monitor.

Oh and as for the C-16 NP mix, we have. All it proved is that the car runs with less knock. But I would not tune someone for that unless they looking for a Stage 3 Map (racing). That way they could flash it in when they are ready to use it.

[west_minist]

Just reading a bit, it seems that the Subaru community is learning.

Just like any other place around the world, the old mentality of adding power is changing slowly.

All subaru ecu's from 1990+ and may even before, you could not mess around them. Even Non turbo cars.

I do know that Toyota and nissan ecus only gain knowledge recently in early 2000+. The better ecu's were left for the high end cars like the Supras and so on. The same goes for Nissan. Mitsubishi was a step ahead with on some of the cars, but was mostly in the turbo market.

The world is moving away from piggy backs in the ECU world and with the advent of mass print, owners are seeing that getting rid of there ecu's for aftermarkets that are not 100% replacements, has been a bad decision.

Rally cars - -non wrc are now ROM Reflash, the UK/USA/AUS are now reflashing. But again, it takes time as owners are educated.

Also remember, many owners use to have other cars and brings over this knowledge and all experience problems and even wonder why there purchase a Subaru.

A stock Subaru will perform very good. Even less pinging and knock than a JDM one. But, mod it and you are in for hell.

Octane helps, but only to a point.

Hey, everyone should buy a UK Prodive STI, which is an Export 260HP STI tuned up to a JDM Export STI lol.

[Bezman]

riderz let me be devils advocate here, have you ever logged / rom tunned / worked on any OTHER ecu / rom tune for a turbo car other than a subaru??

[Bezman]

Hey BTW does anybody know of any STi doing low 12s running stock mods. I would like to know for reference. My next project is an 04 STi. Aiming for 11s on pump gas with little mods. Probably injectors and exhaust like what I have now.

Marcus Edghill (RIP buddy) used to have a blue WRX that he just upped the boost to like 22-24psi (with a EBC) - not certian it was the stock turbo - and ran water injection and a fuel controller, intake & exhasut, intercooler etc and broke into the 12's IIRC on the north track a couple times, but he drove that car like he stole it and it broke clutches and drive train parts freequently trying it again...