MY WERD!!! She Breathing Right NOW!!

[Monk BANzai]

serious considerations....when i get the 18's later this month and the brake upgrade i'll consider....

also eyeing that silver on in AutoSales......really loverly color....

[Monk BANzai]

leh me hear the gurus hadda say. Engine spun a bearign today....and from the looks of it...it looks like piston damage as well. Yeah...

So what are my options and costs?

Angle One:
Head and block swap and go back up with ACL Bearings and Call that george. Are these readily available?

Angle Two:
Engine rebuild. New pistons, bearings, rods (insert parts list). Crank wud need to be cut in the event its been "scorched"...

Any other Angles I missing?

I would need a parts list for either option.

[SR]

engine swap

2.5 stock

how d hell u spin ah bearing

[copper_shot]

^.. well... is ah subaru u know....

save yourself the headache..

get a head and block and go back stock...

[Monk BANzai]

availability. Been calling around and is like a ghost town where that is concerned. Plus costs are (I find) a bit high.....im hearing starting prices of 9K for a head and block alone.....where as the parts list to rebuild is running close to 10,500....SR i really dotn know other than it being a gradual detonation of the engine and i didnt know....oil levels were good.

One school of thought is that i was using a 5W40 body oil......

[ole whore]

availability. Been calling around and is like a ghost town where that is concerned. Plus costs are (I find) a bit high.....im hearing starting prices of 9K for a head and block alone.....where as the parts list to rebuild is running close to 10,500....SR i really dotn know other than it being a gradual detonation of the engine and i didnt know....oil levels were good.

One school of thought is that i was using a 5W40 body oil......

hmmm...

[SR]

hmm indeed
i thought 20w50 was what was recomended for the engine

[Jimbo]

hmm indeed
i thought 20w50 was what was recomended for the engine

Like!

[16 cycles]

can check W2J / sleepoy on TSOC for parts to rebuild - finding a good block can be a headache

parts list usually-

bearings (ACL race bearings - come highly recommended)

rods (eagle - standard for the rebuild kits - less you wanna go something exotic)

pistons (weisco seems to be the preferred option as they come pre-coated - less 'blow-by' than with other forged pistons ~20thou overbore)

head gaskets (remember x2- cometic)
head studs (ARP)

new crank (have no idea who re-grounds these and can match the bearings to accommodate for the re-grind etc - be sure that the right crank is sourced - bolt holes or somethn like that - can't remember but vendors should guide you correctly and can be sourced from the USDM market)

machine shop time and labor

be very very certain that the shop doing the overbore is experienced with the ej20 blocks....

or as suggested above, 2.5 USDM block - not sure the mating procedures if any with the 2.0 heads


usually a good opportunity to upgrade the heads / oil pump etc

[SR]

i have been told the 2.5 bottom end will mate with the 2.0 head but the ecu will have to be reprogrammed

not 100% sure on it but its somthing i would look at

[Monk BANzai]

yeah i heard so as well.....going to see an "option" later.....if it pans out i'l lbe happy like pappy and back up by weekend.....



we not stickin......

[nemesis]

2.5L block will mate with 2.0L heads. No science really, just you might end up with a different compression ratio. That's actually what I'm using. STI 2.5L from the US.
No I don't recommend it for you. Will probably go way out of your price range by the time you import one, even a stock block with stock internals. And the stock USDM blocks had quite a problem with the rings scraping the walls and getting a lot of blow-by. Hence the reason there are so many used ones for sale online. Also will not require retuning in stock form, but you will lose top-end as the stock turbo ain't going to work well on the larger bore.
I don't agree that the 5W40 oil was your reason for spinning if it was oil in good condition and you were driving normally. When the oil is warm it'll be just as viscous as the oil anyone else here is using. And will still probably flow better. I've used oils from 10W30 to 20W50 and they all work fine once they're in good condition. Only thing being that with the lighter oils you might tend to burn some.
So although I've probably said it to you before. If your heads/block are in good condition, get forged internals and good bearings/gaskets and go back up. Will probably cost you the same as buying a whole new stock engine, and will definitely hold up better. No point in going back close to stock and the minute you start playing again you're looking for another engine.

[VexXx Dogg]

What causes this to happen? [spun bearing]
I've heard several instances locally and quite frankly, I'm paranoid.

[nemesis]

The most common train of thought is improper oiling. If you look at aftermarket parts they always have better oiling passages and they always mention how great their low friction coating is compared to stock.
Also, improper tuning can cause it. Poor ignition timing or detonation can force the crank against the bearings rather than roll around smoothly. Eventually it'll grip if you're pushing against the same point each revolution. So I've been told. Luckily I blew my engine apart rather than spin a bearing..so didn't need to debate if to get a new block.
Didn't you rebuild already Vexxdog?

[Alpha_2nr]

^^Well said there nemesis. Poor m'tce (assuming by the prev owner in this case) and/or other factors. Never had a spun bearing in the 5 + years I had mine.

I don't agree that the 5W40 oil was your reason for spinning if it was oil in good condition and you were driving normally. When the oil is warm it'll be just as viscous as the oil anyone else here is using. And will still probably flow better. I've used oils from 10W30 to 20W50 and they all work fine once they're in good condition. Only thing being that with the lighter oils you might tend to burn some.

Well said x 2.

[VexXx Dogg]

The most common train of thought is improper oiling. If you look at aftermarket parts they always have better oiling passages and they always mention how great their low friction coating is compared to stock.
Also, improper tuning can cause it. Poor ignition timing or detonation can force the crank against the bearings rather than roll around smoothly. Eventually it'll grip if you're pushing against the same point each revolution. So I've been told. Luckily I blew my engine apart rather than spin a bearing..so didn't need to debate if to get a new block.
Didn't you rebuild already Vexxdog?

negative, still on stock internals, but I take no chances.
My tune is very tame/conservative, and I monitor oil temps (my pressure gauge is shot) constantly.
I check and change oil religiously..but I heard it happens when you least expect it. *knock on wood*

[SR]

what mileage do u change oil at and what oil used?

[Ragnarok]

This smells like a bad tune all over it...piston jamming crank thus damaging the bearing all most likely caused by heavy det.

[Monk BANzai]

what mileage do u change oil at and what oil used?

I change oil every 4998km on the dot and i use Eneos 5w40. It is what it is. Agreed also that the previous owner did poor maintainance. I did a background check at N&M and the last recorded maintainance done on the car was in Oct 2007. I got the car in 2010. Thats 3 yrs of dodgy history there. Cant say what was done from what wasnt done, but the opportunity has presented itself to rebuild so i'm doing it.

Talking to a host of ppl this week and just gathering a whole heap of info for both sides of the fence (rebuild using new parts as opposed to buying a block and going back up) and understanding stuff like the older engines being stronger than the newer ones (the GC8 STI for example), learning about the stock oil clearances not being good for sheit as opposed to the aftermarket.

I also think the early smoking i had (while the turbo was damaged) was due to detonation taking place from since mid november...

As we rebuild we'll see how it goes. Yall know i have no issues talking about my experiences here. I'm not ashamed of it...its part of motoring life. We deal with it and we move on having learned..

[SR]

appreciate u sharing the experience so far

i want to know more about the oil clearances etc for the stock engine

[nemesis]

Ragnarok : Not likely to be heavy det since he would have heard it or tuned out a lot of it when he changed turbo. But a little det consistently can be just as dangerous.
Banzai : Oil choice is always debatable. Everyone has their preference, but 5000km changes should be good for most modern oils (I don't trust Total, I don't care what anyone says about that one). Also, older engines may be a little stronger, but are much worse for cooling and weight. Do you really think Subaru would spend R&D money to change and keep modifying their blocks to make them worse overall? Get as new a block as you can from a STI and you'll be good for as much power as you want. Also if you use the GC8 engine you can't use your heads and therefore lose AVCS and consequently engine efficiency.
SR : Lotsa workshop manuals for up to 05 Legacies floating around. Could get that info. I have if you want to see when I get back trini.

[SR]

yeah lookin for one
when u get in we will link

mighten do the work myself but i need to understand when a mechanic trying to BS meh

[nemesis]

Sounds smarter than what I did.
I have to pass by yuh anyway when I come back to check some stuff.

[Monk BANzai]

Ragnarok : Not likely to be heavy det since he would have heard it or tuned out a lot of it when he changed turbo. But a little det consistently can be just as dangerous.
Banzai : Oil choice is always debatable. Everyone has their preference, but 5000km changes should be good for most modern oils (I don't trust Total, I don't care what anyone says about that one). Also, older engines may be a little stronger, but are much worse for cooling and weight. Do you really think Subaru would spend R&D money to change and keep modifying their blocks to make them worse overall? Get as new a block as you can from a STI and you'll be good for as much power as you want. Also if you use the GC8 engine you can't use your heads and therefore lose AVCS and consequently engine efficiency.
SR : Lotsa workshop manuals for up to 05 Legacies floating around. Could get that info. I have if you want to see when I get back trini.

not doubting you..but its open discussion here....can this be confirmed (in bold)?.....

[nemesis]

Yeah no scene. You should confirm yourself before buying parts.
Go in the bamboo and look for them. Or by a mechanic that has lying around and is accustomed to them. Or you could just get GC8 Head gaskets and compare them to yours when you remove them. Quite different.

And I really don't think you need the little extra strength, if any.

[Dude15]

the fact remains that GC8 STi engines cost considerably less when compared with their GD chassis counterparts, hell, its the main reason i sold my GD WRX with 05 STi swap for a GC. I have been quoted figures like $8-10k for a GC STi engine, whilst the GD's STi go for around $20-25k. Add $5k to the quoted GC price and have a RA STi box, add another $20-25k for the near unbreakable 6 speed box of the GD. At the end of the day it all boils down to ones financial position, if it suits the pocket go for it.
BTW, AVCS is awersome and wakes the engine up especially in lower RPM's, personally, I wasnt willing to pay such a high price for that luxury, since IMHO that advantage may be cured on a GC's platform with tuning and boost pressure. My 2 cents.

[nemesis]

Some of it can be fixed a little with tuning, mainly iginition gives you the same feel. But it's definitely not the same when considering that AVCS is also more efficient. You can't really do much about your boost pressure as it's very turbo dependent with respect to when it spools and how long it lasts.
With 20-25k you're talking about the entire engine right? But assuming Banzai's heads are in good condition, for 25k he could change the valves, land a 2.5L block, put forged pistons and good bearings and go up with good gaskets.
And I know it can be done because I've done 2.
But yes, I agree it does come down to how much you're willing to spend and what you want to get out of it. If as cheap as possible is the word, then maybe the GC8 full sti engine may be the way to go. I just don't think it's worth losing that much on the car. Especially an auto Legacy that will lose a lot of the normal driveability without the higher compression and avcs.

[Dude15]

yip 20-25 is entire engine...
agreed, if being back up and driving is the order of the day, then GC.

[16 cycles]

some argue that the jdm ej207 of the MY02 series were the best platforms for the GD chassis since it came as a semi-closed deck as opposed to the open deck for the later models...

http://forums.nasioc.org/forums/showthr ... ?t=1455775

^ for differences between JDM and USDM Sti blocks

[Monk BANzai]

hmmm....good thing engine went PANG! yes....learning a whole heap here....