MY WERD!!! She Breathing Right NOW!!

[Slayer]

^whats wrong with logging injector duty cycles before tuning? and i meant before swapping injectors.
not saying that bigger injectors wont be required, but for a given boost level, i dunno if the injectors are really being maxed out currently.....only way to know is to datalog, not guess.

anyhoo..... i like to datalog before and after i make upgrades or flash a map, just for comparison, get an idea of whats happening.

haven't gotten the VAG to work with ecuflash, but it works for logging.... 1/4 the price of a gauge with 100 times the capabilities. wanna check for knock? thats the way to go

[Alpha_2nr]

i like to datalog before and after i make upgrades or flash a map

Std. practice of all self-respecting tuners I'm sure.

Most of them will doa datalog as a baseline, to see where the car's at, and let the customer know before proceeding.

I would have thought that was obvious.

Remember slayer, you're talking from a DiY flashing POV IIRC. Banzai is going by an external party to get this done
\

BTW: this is the main piece of software I used for knock "logging" (if ever I thought I had any) with the tactrix cable back in the day:



....i.e.....other than "regular" OBD2 software.

You should give it a try slayer......it comes in handy especially after an ECU reset to see how the FLKC and FBKC's progress.....during regular operation (NOT during tuning).

[Jimbo]

To my knowledge, open loop means the circuit is "open" and the ECU's outputs are not influenced by the input from the sensors, hence using data from the tables e.g. at WOT or idle

Serious? Open Loop at idle???????????????????????

I'm under the impression that the car runs in open loop mode at higher rpm:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.p ... 97928&

In a comment made by Trey Cobb in another post :
"the factory cars stays in closed-loop below 58.04% Throttle up to 4000 RPM after which it automatically switches to open-loop. I retain the same RPM range but lower the Throttle required to begin the open-loop transistion to 40% (as in the USDM WRX STi models).

^^if I interpret Cobb's comments correctly, then car moves from closed loop at low rpm to open loop in higher rpm ranges.

it may not be absolutely necessary with a conservative tune, but if I'm tuning aggressively, I'll probably install some 740's for the overhead.

Exactly. Remember that VF37 is mated to an STi which comes with 550 or is it 565 cc injectors? I don't think Legacy's use those (maybe 380? 440?), so the added headroom of a larger injector (in terms of IDC's) MAY.....MAY prove useful.


/fin.

My bad, I meant when the car is cold, i.e. warming up
The point of my post though as that the poster quoted by Banzai had the concepts of OL and CL flipped.

According to Hondata ( http://hondata.com/techclosed.html )

In closed loop operation the ECU uses one or more oxygen sensors as a feedback loop in order to adjust the fuel mixture. This gives the name ‘closed loop’ from the closed feedback loop. The ECU won’t run in a closed feedback loop all the time, so ‘open loop’ is used to describe the operation of the ECU when the mixture is not being adjusted in this way (usually when the engine is cold or when running under high load).

In closed loop operation the ECU uses the oxygen sensor to tell if the fuel mixture is rich or lean. However, due to the characteristics of the oxygen sensor it can’t tell exactly how rich or lean, it only knows that the mixture is richer or leaner than optimum. The ECU will enrich the mixture if the oxygen sensor shows that the mixture is lean, and lean the mixture if it looks rich. The result of this is that the mixture will swing back and forward around the stoichiometric point.

[Ragnarok]

For detonation the car will first try to add a little fuel, which probably won't work well with your small injectors (440 Legacy vs 565 STI), then cut timing, then it just completely drops boost. It doesn't scale the boost for the amount of det you have. So if you have really bad det, you'll see 7psi across the band, in which case you probably shouldn't be trying to redline anyway.

Well said sir.


How does the car add fuel to prevent det?
New FLKC &FBKC will pull timing from the KCA table(slight det)
IAM will fall and pull timing across the entire KCA table(worse det)
If IAM falls lower than .3125 boost is cut car uses target boost A table or wastegate actuator setting.

[VexXx Dogg]

online documentation (on legacygt.com and nasioc?) lists OEM LGT injectors at either 520 or 550 cc's /min. Don't know how accurate these sources are, but from what I understand it is pretty close to STI territory(565), which is why prob why the car will 'work' with the sti turbo swap, but it wont be optimal until tuned.

[Glitch]

online documentation (on legacygt.com and nasioc?) lists OEM LGT injectors at either 520 or 550 cc's /min. Don't know how accurate these sources are, but from what I understand it is pretty close to STI territory(565), which is why prob why the car will 'work' with the sti turbo swap, but it wont be optimal until tuned.

This is correct...The Legacy comes with 520cc injectors so a change in injectors will not be necessary unless you want to "max" the turbo. I would strongly recommend to anyone do not tune past 85%-90% IDC in the event of a boost spike this safety margin is imperative.

[Glitch]

^^ sounds about right except I believe he has open loop and closed loop the wrong way.
To my knowledge, open loop means the circuit is "open" and the ECU's outputs are not influenced by the input from the sensors, hence using data from the tables e.g. at WOT or idle
Closed loop is when the circuit is "closed" so the continuous loop between engine sensors and ECU outputs is not interrupted

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Very Correct

[Slayer]

im familiar with learning view, great tool for logging knock i agree.....
and to ans the question posed "how to kno if my car knocking?" simple response was to datalog, and i didnt mean while tuning, but everyday driving to "know if my car knocking"

i agree that learning view is very useful, from a DIY flashing POV, but if u just "want to kno if my car knocking", its easy to datalog, n u'll kno....

i aint no tuner, n im sorry to make any "obvious" statements, like logging IDC's to see my injectors are maxed out

[Ragnarok]

^^ sounds about right except I believe he has open loop and closed loop the wrong way.
To my knowledge, open loop means the circuit is "open" and the ECU's outputs are not influenced by the input from the sensors, hence using data from the tables e.g. at WOT or idle
Closed loop is when the circuit is "closed" so the continuous loop between engine sensors and ECU outputs is not interrupted

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Very Correct

Wrong...if you taking bout the MAF sensor not been used as part of the ECU output in OL.It always is (open or closed)

[nemesis]

online documentation (on legacygt.com and nasioc?) lists OEM LGT injectors at either 520 or 550 cc's /min. Don't know how accurate these sources are, but from what I understand it is pretty close to STI territory(565), which is why prob why the car will 'work' with the sti turbo swap, but it wont be optimal until tuned.

This is correct...The Legacy comes with 520cc injectors so a change in injectors will not be necessary unless you want to "max" the turbo. I would strongly recommend to anyone do not tune past 85%-90% IDC in the event of a boost spike this safety margin is imperative.

Well, I doh know for sure having never measured them myself. But before I decided on injectors myself I removed the stock ones and took pictures, wrote down all the numbers etc and e-mailed it to DW and Subaru (in Japan) and asked them the flow and they both independantly said 440cc. Maybe the US models have 520cc's since they have bigger blocks and tend to need more fuel when people do upgrades?
If you have 520's you should be good then. I find 90% IDC is still a bit high. But it depends on how large a margin you want.
As for the car adding fuel for det it can add up to 3%(I think) over it's mapped flow to attempt to cool your charge and prevent det. It's what it does first I believe, before ignition and boost cut. But I eh no tuner, so I don't know like allyuh.

[Ragnarok]

I aint no tuna either bro..was just curious as to your statement that assumes DET was cause by charge temp. if this is so then that really bess.

[nemesis]

Yeah, they're quite interesting ECU's. And yes it does assume that it's caused by charge temp. Isn't it always though? Very very often you can stop Det by reducing charge temp(actually I'm yet to see a case while tuning where it wouldn't have helped)...hence the reason so many people use water/meth injection.

[VexXx Dogg]

online documentation (on legacygt.com and nasioc?) lists OEM LGT injectors at either 520 or 550 cc's /min. Don't know how accurate these sources are, but from what I understand it is pretty close to STI territory(565), which is why prob why the car will 'work' with the sti turbo swap, but it wont be optimal until tuned.

This is correct...The Legacy comes with 520cc injectors so a change in injectors will not be necessary unless you want to "max" the turbo. I would strongly recommend to anyone do not tune past 85%-90% IDC in the event of a boost spike this safety margin is imperative.

Well, I doh know for sure having never measured them myself. But before I decided on injectors myself I removed the stock ones and took pictures, wrote down all the numbers etc and e-mailed it to DW and Subaru (in Japan) and asked them the flow and they both independantly said 440cc. Maybe the US models have 520cc's since they have bigger blocks and tend to need more fuel when people do upgrades?
If you have 520's you should be good then. I find 90% IDC is still a bit high. But it depends on how large a margin you want.
As for the car adding fuel for det it can add up to 3%(I think) over it's mapped flow to attempt to cool your charge and prevent det. It's what it does first I believe, before ignition and boost cut. But I eh no tuner, so I don't know like allyuh.

excellent point.
Differences between JDM and USDM.
If the JDM is 440 then eeeeeeeek!

[BlackXT]

Any updates?

[Monk BANzai]

none yet...time didnt allow for me to tune this week..defn within the week coming...and yes im under 4000 rpms....

[BlackXT]

Cool. Looking forward to see how things turn out.

[VexXx Dogg]

yeah Ras, hit us an update when yuh done eh!
Planning on getting it dyno'ed before yuh sell?

[thegtiman]

Just finished a bit of a hybrid turbo "sidegrade" (dont consider it an upgrade). As you may have known, my original VF38 went "PANG!" some weeks ago due to heavy Impeller and Bearing damage and i had to change it out (the very week I put the car up for sale). Finding a VF38 was like finding a virgin on Murray Street Carnival Friday night. Hopeless.

I also didnt want to do an upgrade of a turbo that wud cost me in excess of 10K in parts and tuning. So I was able to procure an STi Turbo from a Bug eyed car that was doing its own upgrades and was able to machine the back end to bit the larger turbine of the STi unit as well as the larger Impeller of the front end. That way i kept the Twin scroll (pansy i know) piping but got a unit that would spool quicker and give some more power. The total cost (including the STi unit and the machine shop work) came up to less than $6K.

My question is do I have to tune for this sidegrade? I suspect that at higher RPM's//full load the car may run lean. Or should I assume that AFM will comspensate for the increased volume of air and give the necessary fuel?

The MAF is a reference for modelled air charge at the throttle valve which injection quantity is based on.
If there is an error between your MAF and modelled air charge this will show up in the in how hard the lambda controller is correcting to lambda = 1 in closed loop fuelling and in your fuel adaptives. The adaptives, which are applied for idle and part load can get applied to WOT or open loop conditions.
Typical air charge errors which will be absorbed by mixture control are;
-Faulty purge canistor valve
-Incorrectly sized injectors
-Diagnostics
-Camshaft upgrade.
If lambda correction is greater than +/- 5% it is considered bad practice by OE calibration engineers.

In your case if the turbo has significantly different characteristics, the engine can be run in the conditions that it was not desinged for and lead to running problems.
If this is suspected, rather than speculate a test should be done on the dyno logging fuel mixture and listening for det with det cans.
As suggested romraider can be used with KWP2000 compatible cables to not only monitor PIDs from diagnostics but also read and write direct from the eeprom providing the ecu has not been reflashed with Ecutek software. You can use this for dyno tests.
Should the engine come anywhere close to knocking at higer loads first it will tend to overfuel to cool the combustion chamber and if it does knock the knock controller it will react by very quickly in reducing spark advance in steps according to the knock duration before the boost duty valve is told by the control module to reduce load (reduction in charge pressure). Knock reduction occures every firing cycle and is a quick enough for the driver not to detect any change in drive torque if not serious.
If the hardware is altered that would trigger any of the above conditoions remapping can address any issue such as the above as well as cure the standard overfuelling most OE tuned vehicles have due to running catalysts. This will help fuel economy.

Good luck.

[Monk BANzai]

right....so...it was knock city yesterday. We finally set the car up to tune...remember i wasn't pushing the car at all. First set of runs was to data log and get a base line...(road test...not dyno) if i floored it was level Knocking...at one point is was almost 5%...so we tuned that out and then took a second and third runs...each time doing a slow run and then an all out run. Almost instantly my major complaint of the car being lazy was nullified.

The car was pulling much more stronger in the lower RPM's now...and then we developed another problem..what i thought was an ECU "compensating for more air" is really an electrical issue. Either the plugs, or the plug wires or the coil packs. OF course at this stage is purely speculation, but the car would pull very strong to 4800RPM and then get that "miss"....that would be the norm and then suddenly on one run, it wud run very smooth all the way to 6700 rpm pinning us to the seat. IT really brings a smile to your face once it works right.

I drove the car in a varying modes today. moderate in traffic, Aggressive (in sport mode) in traffic and tonight i did a maintained 160kph plus run from Sando to Arima. In each case the car has become 100% more responsive than before. Especially in the Aggressive mode in traffic....feels like the days of the Ox again (cant replace it though...*snif). On the extended run over 160kph though,, i noticed that if i floored it...it wud give me that bucking miss....if i gently press down though.....its accelerates much smother (still with the miss, but not as intense)

I also got a slight bit of smoke this AM when I started the car, but im not too concerned about that.

So for now its back to changing plugs/coils and see whats going on.

[VexXx Dogg]

Had that same problem and unkle W2J/WhiteGDA nailed it.
Turns out it was plugs!
I swapped in a new set of Iridium 9's and the gapping was off.
I reverted to the original plugs and problem went away....(havent had time to put back in the iridiums tho)

[Ragnarok]

Finally!!! Glad you like it...

[copper_shot]

^ sounds like plugs

i always get shitty problems with different plugs

stick to the original - the long type
------

my previous legacy when i just got it i did a service and wasnt able to get the original long plugs at the time, so i used the short kind (forrester,wrx etc)

car instantly went on limp mode, lower boost etc
i didnt have no guages at the time and i had just got the car so i didnt know it was slower than usual.

anyways so i retuned after, open source dyno tune by prentice - 200whp+ @15psi
on the same short plugs

after somtime i got the original long plugs and put it in and got the same problem, car went on limp mode
reverted to the short plugs and car worked great

sold the car now, decided to service it before i gave the new owner and my mechanic changed the plugs to the original long type, car went on limp mode again

switched back to short plugs and everything is fine again.

i dunno the technicality behind it, but thats the way it works for me...

i know of other legacys that used the short plugs and went on limp mode, lower boost too

[Monk BANzai]

Copper you confusing me...yu start by saying the long plugs is the solution and then towards the end you saying use th short plugs....arrgh!! which is it?

oh my battery went dead this morn..so i swapping that out as well....

[VexXx Dogg]

No the OEM plus is a long plug and some people mistanly use a short plug when replacing.
Get the correct ones, check AWD_motorports, sleepoy or W2J

[Alpha_2nr]

^^I thought you had used a "-11" (or 44 thou) gap plug in your instance...and that was the issue?

[VexXx Dogg]

^^I thought you had used a "-11" (or 44 thou) gap plug in your instance...and that was the issue?

wrong gapping was my issue; the longplug comment was about Baznai's post.
I got the right length plug, but the wrong gap. Its still in my supply cabinet waiting reinstallation, lol

[copper_shot]

Copper you confusing me...yu start by saying the long plugs is the solution and then towards the end you saying use th short plugs....arrgh!! which is it?

oh my battery went dead this morn..so i swapping that out as well....

lol let me try to say it again shorter version

when i bought the car it came with long plugs (original)

i did a service when i just got the car and put short plugs, because i couldnt get the original after that install the car was running lower boost - i didnt know because i had just got the car, kept on those plugs for a while too

retuned the car on those same plugs and made the 200whp

did a service after and got the original long plugs- car went back in limp mode (lower boost)

switch back to the short plugs and it worked fine

so, my car was retuned on the short plugs and thats what i have to keep using on it

but what i was trying to say is that the ecu is very sensitive when it comes to the plugs - use the original and make sure they're good - once they need changing they will drive you nuts trying to figure out the problem, sending the car in limp mode at times
the only reason i use the shorter one is because i tuned my car on it and so it works for me...
the only other way to get the long plugs to work is to retune the car on it- didnt make sense to me

hope i aint confuse anybody...
i still find it weird...

[Alpha_2nr]

^^Cliff's notes - use the correct plugs, since not everyone may have the same experience as Coppershot.

The owner's manual will have the specs for the plugs...you may consder using one step colder - but that will be based on the advice OF YOUR TUNER (and not off of a forum thread).

[Monk BANzai]

Battery bought and installed..... WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!!!! ok ok..i seeing possibilities now!! ma goodnesss!!!

car pulling sweeeet!!!! Stil lhadda check plugs though.....

[VexXx Dogg]

like yuh change your mind about selling or wah?

LOL