Toyota 4AGE & 3SGTE owners/tuners (thread index on pg1)

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 11th, 2006, 11:00 am

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ok its been fun. i've enjoyed meeting the type Rs and sr20's and their owners and handing their asses to them as well but a stock 20V 1.6 just doesnt get me off anymore. to sell or not to sell to modify or not to modify that is the question. im thinking either a 3sgte swap or im thinking even more seriously a frankenstine with the 20V blacktop head and 3sgte bottom end. *drools* sounds good in theory but in reality this wont even work if the bore centers of both engines arent the same and so far i cant find a single link or page anywhere with the info. for those of you who arent familiar... 4age 20 valve 1.6L 165HP 12somthing lbs/ft torque NA
3sgte 16 valve 2.0L ~250HP ???torque. turbo
My reasoning is simple. 3 inlet valves on the 4A versus 2 on the 3Sgte plus 4 throttles on the 4A versus 1 on the 3s should have the potential for a higher volumetric efficiency with the 4A20v head. Toss a 264 degree cam and valve kit in the mix and aftermarket EMS and you start to get the picture. im hoping around 400 HP with a crapload of torque. Im not quite sure if a 3rd gen 3sgte block can handle 400 HP in stock trim but i'll get to that eventually if the project is at all possible. any views? :idea:

Sully · Postby **Sully** » July 11th, 2006, 11:25 am

I hope that you have very very deep pockets.

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 11th, 2006, 2:45 pm

well im thinking that since i have almost as many tools as the average garage and i already own the blacktop 20V head all i need is the camup and valve kit
(~$7 000 TT for the kit with 264degree cams from toda racing) and the 3s bottom end. Im still scouting for a price on a 3rd gen 3sgte. i speculate that the fuel system of the 3rd gen 3s should be capable of about ~325 HP before sensors etc start to fail. the 1st and 2nd gen 3sgte wont go much further than about 275 without serious modifications (read: thousands of US dollars). So speculating that i can persuade someone to donate a 3s for around 10 grand i should spend around 20 total to get it up and running. not bad to go from 165 to 325 hp. then when my pocket recovers all hell can break lose. :twisted:

Postby **AllTrac** » July 11th, 2006, 3:55 pm

there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to compare, out the box, the first gen 3sgte would whoop the living day lights out of a 4age, 20 valve, 50 valve 1000valve :lol:

even in my gt4 that was back pressureing i used to play with dem.
if u want to do a 3sgte swap, expect some down time and cost, its not a cheap swap, no matter how easy it looks, hopefully u get a 3sgte from a mr2 and not a celica cause getting a mr2 lsd gbox alone is near impossible locally, but its available in the US, 1995-1998 lsd box cost about 400-700 before shipping, i had to ship mines in only to realise that the non lsd axles dont work on the lsd box without some minor machiene shop modifications, but im not risking it, im in search of lsd axles now and trying to get it at a good deal would take a bit longer.

katurbobeast · Postby **katurbobeast** » July 11th, 2006, 5:15 pm

wats wrong with the 20V?.......its just as a good engine to work/build as those SR20 and B16/18 Honda engines......
i guess there is no replacement for displacement, so just put a 3S into your ride..!!
toyota shoulda stayed with the 20V, 4Throttles right through there engine range...and they should made a 1.8 as well, that woulda been decent!!!

all that swapping around of engine parts is crazy.....just use 1 base and build it!!!
but its up to you...!!!

Postby **AllTrac** » July 11th, 2006, 10:17 pm

nutting is wrong with the 20v, i never said anything is wrong with it, but useing the 3sgte as its measureing stick makes the 20v come up short, the 3s is a 2.0lt and its turbocharged, doh matter how much of a high revin screamin 4 throttle the 20v is, it wont keep up with a 3sgte, the 20v is a good strong engine and its can be compared to other rival motors in its class, meaning other 1.6 screamers, like b16's, evem sr20's(na) and some other 2.0lt na's, that alone speaks mountains of its capability. As for building it up and trying to turbocharge it, its a mater of reliability and cost, alot of people are differed by the initial total cost for buying and swaping in a 3sgte, but properly building up an engine that was na from the factory to handle boost, add it up, might be close or even more, and i stress on PROPER NA to TURBO BUILD UP when reliability is your first concern. When all a 3s has to do is increase its boost from 7-10psi with a cheap mbc and it would make your turboed 4age feel na again.
All im saying is that its a unfair comparison for the 4age, compare it with engine within its class. Btw i have felt the power of a turbocharged 4age in a ceres and i think it would give a 4agze a run for its money :shock:

the high compression engine plus a quick spool turbo almost makes it feel supercharged, almost no lag :twisted:

Probably later on when i get some time and $$ i wont mind make the 4age and 1.8 useing the 7a block and then supercharge it useing parts froma 4agze that would be a beast and a worthy adversary :twisted:

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 11th, 2006, 10:35 pm

OK OK put your gloves away guys i had no intentions of drawing comparisons at all here... if i could condense everything i was saying i should like to mention that all im really getting at is im FULLY aware of the capabilities of the 3sgte motor wether stock or built... ALSO im aware of its obvious limitations... however im willing to be adventurous enough to explore a theory of mine that a better flowing head and some cams could unleash even more chaotic results. thats all im saying. i dont think i've ever seen anyone try it and if im both the first and also sucessful then whats there to lose? i wasnt even aware that anyone else owned a 20V in this country when i got mine... im not usually one to follow trends unless they fully suit my taste. Anyway to agree with everyones general statements yes the 3s will smack the 20V silly all the way to and from starting line... yes the 20V is a heavyweight contender both in its 1.6 NA class and even in the 2.0 NA class to some extent.... HOWEVER... AGAIN... im all about new concepts and new ideas and adventure. That said, does anyone know how to determine if the bore centers of both the 3sgte and the 4age 20V blacktop are the same?

Postby **AllTrac** » July 11th, 2006, 11:08 pm

lol no boxing gloves here, we having good convo

as for your last question, no, they are not the same.

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 12th, 2006, 11:32 am

AllTrac wrote:as for your last question, no, they are not the same.

I cant see how a head swap could possibly work if the bore centers on both engines are different so i guess the most important thing to do now is post the following lol...
WTB 3RD GEN 3SGTE :!:

I know what you said about the first gen but im trying to avoid the distributor in favor of coil packs plus a few other revisions that i think make the 3rd gen the better platform for upgrades.
I'll post up some pics on a webpage of my 20V and its tuning history for those interested in purchasing it. i've made up my mind to get rid of it. those of you who are happy with ~ 200 hp im happy for you but i've outgrown that realm and im more optimistic about something in the vicinity of 350 WHP (yes on a dyno at the wheels 350+ or no deal) im quite sure the chassis can take it and if not im bent on finding out the hard way :twisted:

fafrumlosin · Postby **fafrumlosin** » July 12th, 2006, 11:53 am

i think personally a whp goal of 350 makes no sense you will surely have traction issues after spending a crapload of money just to get the engine working the after you need to worry about suspension and drivetrain..but ths just my opinion..my goal is to dump a 75shot on my silvertop and go hunting but thas just me :mrgreen:

Postby **AllTrac** » July 12th, 2006, 12:35 pm

nasscott wrote:
AllTrac wrote:as for your last question, no, they are not the same.
I cant see how a head swap could possibly work if the bore centers on both engines are different so i guess the most important thing to do now is post the following lol...
WTB 3RD GEN 3SGTE
I know what you said about the first gen but im trying to avoid the distributor in favor of coil packs plus a few other revisions that i think make the 3rd gen the better platform for upgrades.
I'll post up some pics on a webpage of my 20V and its tuning history for those interested in purchasing it. i've made up my mind to get rid of it. those of you who are happy with ~ 200 hp im happy for you but i've outgrown that realm and im more optimistic about something in the vicinity of 350 WHP (yes on a dyno at the wheels 350+ or no deal) im quite sure the chassis can take it and if not im bent on finding out the hard way

the 3rd gen 3sgte doesnt use coil pack, it still retians the dizzy and single coil setup like all the versions before.

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 12th, 2006, 1:45 pm

fafrumlosin wrote:i think personally a whp goal of 350 makes no sense you will surely have traction issues after spending a crapload of money just to get the engine working the after you need to worry about suspension and drivetrain..but ths just my opinion..my goal is to dump a 75shot on my silvertop and go hunting but thas just me

Interesting you should say that because as much as i know about engines i actually have zero experience using nitrous and about equivalent amounts of knowlege about it. im aware of the wet/dry concept etc but does a 75 shot GUARANTEE you 75 WHP? and even so that would land you somewhere around 215 hp to the wheels give or take drive train losses. what that translates into is.... subarus evo's and built sr20 turbos are going to have u for breakfast lunch and snack time. Something else im concerned about with NOS is that it seems to have an appitite for uncoated pistons and im quite certain the silver tops dont come coated (dont let the silver paint on the outside fool you its not ceramic and it doesnt exist anywhere on the inside of the engine)

fafrumlosin · Postby **fafrumlosin** » July 12th, 2006, 3:10 pm

it may not net you 75whp but im looking at power to weight here... personally my car eh no speed machine but the weight of the car coupled with the engine pulls really decent ive raced sr20det powered vehicles and yes i got my ass handed to me but at very marginal distances..so im sure a 75 should put me in the game :mrgreen:

evidence of this is dave b14 sr20DE auto which does 14s if im not mistaken..as for the pistons and internals just like any form of forced induction once tuned right it should stand the test of time

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 12th, 2006, 4:16 pm

fafrumlosin wrote:i think personally a whp goal of 350 makes no sense you will surely have traction issues after spending a crapload of money just to get the engine working the after you need to worry about suspension and drivetrain..but ths just my opinion..my goal is to dump a 75shot on my silvertop and go hunting but thas just me

well if you're in it for the SR turbos lurking around then way to go with NOS. Me im more interested in the evo's and impreza's that popped the cat converter and stock barrel and trust me 300 at the wheels should put you well into that league. taking no prisoners though im looking for 350 but would settle for about 325whp. I acknowledge your concerns about wheel spin and suspension etc but my shocks need replacing anyway and the car *god bless toyota* came with anti roll bars strut tower braces and just about everything i could think save a roll cage itself to keep things level. in the wheel spin department i wont even dare to imagine a 3sgte that puts out 350 to the wheels on the stock ECU therefore to get to 350 i'd have to be running an aftermarket EMS which would have boost and launch control anyway so wheelspin is simply an issue of proper tuning. Any further concerns about my 350whp aspirations?

Postby **AllTrac** » July 12th, 2006, 4:22 pm

whats your plans to reach 350whp wrt to mods on a 3rd gen 3sgte or 2nd gen, which ever one u are looking to make that hp with.

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 13th, 2006, 3:19 pm

AllTrac wrote:the 3rd gen 3sgte doesnt use coil packs it still retians the dizzy and single coil setup like all the versions before.

so in answer to your last post im not sure im up for the project anymore. you were right i thought the 3rd gen was actually the 4th gen 3sgte. the 4th gen is the one that has the more capable fuel system and should be easily enough setup to run about 325whp. im not sure im up for the dramatic mods that have to be done to get a 2nd or 3rd gen past 275. i guess what i have to determine is if im willing to get a 2nd gen and do a turbo upgrade among other minor things to get 275. im not sure if i can live with it but we'll see im knee deep in thought about it as we speak. if there's anyone reading these posts who want to know quite clearly what its going to take by way of cams turbo EMS fuel system upgrades etc to net around 325 hp to the wheels on a 2nd or 3rd gen 3sgte including you alltrac (as if you dont already know) i'll be happy to post a basic rundown on what i think should be capable.

Postby **AllTrac** » July 13th, 2006, 6:43 pm

nasscott, its like this, the 4th gen 3sgte came in the caldina wagon and its automatic and VERY rare find, if u do happen to get one, the wireing it very hard to do when swapping, plus u have to get a manual tranny also the 4th gen 3sgte is very different wrt to parts compared to the 1st,2nd,3rd gen 3sgte, so when even u have to repair u have to source part #'s for it and what might work on the other gen's wont work on the 4th gen, also it was never shipped to the US so all parts have to be sourced from japan. This is stuff u have to take into consideration when buying an engine u are going to stomp on. The 3rd gen 3sgte isnt that rare to find compared to the 4th gen, but at the same time its not that easy to find, where as the 2nd gen 3s(the one i have) is plentyful, there are a couple int he bamboo right now. COmpared to the 2ndgen, the 3rd gen can support up to 325hp on the stock fuel system, because it has a better flowing rail than the 2nd gen, it comes with larger injectors(550cc vs 440cc), more high flowing fuel pump, no afm(although i dont see how some consider this a pro, probably at over 320hp), better intake manifold (single runner design vs dual runner) EXTREMELY better turbo(ct20b vs the ct26) ecu has maps for up to 18-19psi and the turbo can pump that amount efficiently with out hitting that 5500rpm brick wall, come running 15psi stock boost. There are dyno's where 3rd gen owners have made 300hp with just turbo & intercooler upgrade, 19psi with race gas stock ECU. The 3rd gen come doing 250fwhp. The 2nd gen comes doing 230fwhp, 7psistock, BUT the 2nd gen has a stronger block, there are 5 reported incidents i have read of block cracking on the 3rd gen at elevated power levels. Increasing boost to 15psi on a 2nd gen can also make the 3rdgen fwhp, but there is also a reliability issue, the 2nd gen has a problem with its poor intake manifold design which does not distribute air evenly and causes #3 & 4 cylinder to lean out, also the rail design in the 2nd gen needs work, toyota relaised this and updated the rail and intake manifold in the 3rd gen eliminating this problem. Another thing to note is that the 2nd gens didnt come lsd, where as ALL 3rd gens came with it, it was compulstry seeing that the mr2 was plauged with snap oversteer. After saying that, i would rather a 2nd gen over a 3rd gen because when modifying the majourity of DYNO TESTED parts and R&D done by US aftermarket part vendors is done on the 2nd gen(also its what came in my car :mrgreen:

) also fittament is for the 2nd gen. Getting parts from Japan is rare, but when u do, u have to grab it! :mrgreen:

Good thing is that when it comes to OEM replacement parts the 3rd gen and 2nd gen shares almost all of them. To get a 2nd gen to put down 300whp reliably, u need to try and fix the intake manifold when pumping in lots of psi, reprogrammed or stand alone ecu, turbo upgrade IS A MUST(a ct20b from a 3rd gen is a direct bolt on and spools very fast), fuel upgrade, intercooler upgrade and other small upgrades that are expected, but those outlined have to be done to reach there.
IF u want 300whp quickly go with a 3rdgen, but bear in mind the 3rdgen with its advantages over the 2nd gen is also more expensive, used engine reseller knows this. The 2nd gen is more cheaper and could be modded to reach and surpass the 3rdgen stock capeabilitys, so its either spend a lump sum now OR over a period of time. IF u want me to post the dyno sheet that i have seen from other owners making 300whp on a 3rd gen with mod or 2nd gen, let me know, i'll post it here.

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 14th, 2006, 12:16 pm

now thats the kinda info i've hoped would be posted in this thread. i've been eyeing a couple 3sgte's in the bamboo but had no clue how to determine what generation. i still think i need to do more research because im still thinking the 3s with the stock fuel system capable of the power i want to make would be easier and cheaper since its typically plug and play with minor upgrades. i've noticed what looked like a 1st gen 3s and i have no idea what the next one was but it had a top mounted intercooler. both at rogers in the bamboo. i want to fit this in a bz (like the L touring) corolla. so i need it to work in a front wheel drive setup. if the 3rd gen can work i dont see why it isnt the better option since the problems the 2nd gen are prone to dont exist with the 3rd gen. if one had an unlimited budget would you support the idea of the 3rd gen head on the 2nd gen block? although im not sure i'm up for the head swap. like i said i need to delve into the specs of the 3s family the way ive researched my engine and then decide from there what i want to do. so far it seems inevitable though and the limitation right now is funding and information. any suggested tech sites where they lay out the the specs pretty raw for the 3sgte engines 1st - 4th gen?

Postby **AllTrac** » July 14th, 2006, 9:29 pm

go with the 3rdgen 3sgte, after reading your post i believe its what you are looking for. Remember as long as its man made, it wont be perfect. But the 3rd gen 3sgte is more suited for u. To fit a 3rd gen head ona 2nd gen block, u would need the complete 3rd gen head(everything included ont he inside) intake mani, exhaust mani, all sensors, ecu, and 3rd gen wire harness, the 3rd gen head would bolt on physically to the 2nd gen block, it has been done before, imo its not worth it tho.

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 15th, 2006, 3:23 pm

Now im left with the formidable task of finding a 3rd gen 3sgte or shipping one in myself wish me luck. It seems that the blacktop 20V and the 3sgte's are either rare in trinidad and tobago, or their owners dont frequent this website. i was hoping to both gather and share as much info on these engines as possible because i think that the Nissan and Honda contingent at all events greatly outnumber the toyota's mainly because people have no idea how to source parts and information on the performance toyota engines or even how to go about moding them. Am i the only person with a 20V blacktop on trinituner?

Sully · Postby **Sully** » July 16th, 2006, 11:42 am

^^ Same probelm that I'm having. I'm a 20V blacktop owner looking to go the 3SGTE route, without much luck.

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 16th, 2006, 5:34 pm

Sully wrote:^^ Same probelm that I'm having. I'm a 20V blacktop owner looking to go the 3SGTE route, without much luck.

Ok good. Lets be objective here though... how much horse power are you looking for and what are your expectations as far as modification of the engine is concerned. for example my car is a bz touring station wagon and i wanted a "sleeper" type looking car that could pump out 325 to the wheels without much fuss like nos and specially fabricated manifolds etc. i just wanted an engine i could swap and run an aftermarket ems and probably cams on to get 325 at the wheels. do you have specific goals or you just got fedup of the blacktop and decided to try the 3sgte instead? Apart from that I myself am having a bit of difficulty getting all the comparitive specs and differences on the 4 generations so its difficult to make a decision. so far the 3rd gen looks like the best suited engine for my application. i dont see it possible to own one for less than about $30 000TT though but im still looking. if you want you could checkout this website and contact them if you need further info. i know i intend to. the following is NOT a hyperlink. plugin the website and then browse through the menu in the order listed... http://www.toysport.com>specials>toysport engines
i dont know if alltrac has any that can give you better tech info on the engines. but the more info i gather the more i will share. Once again i invite those who own or would like to own and tune a black or silvertop 20V to post your questions comments and concerns. For those who may be wondering apart from the obvious displacement disadvantage i prefer to go with the 3sgte because it would take alot less to get to my 325ish HP goal using a 3s than trying to modify a 20v 4age. I have numerous info on the engines that suggest they have been more or less fully optimised for performance as is and basically cams and valvetrain upgrades are about all that can be done to easily unleash a few more horses from the engine. contrary to what one would expect from its head design the stock valvetrain does not seem to enjoy being revved to its 7800 rpm redline constantly and upgrade parts for beefing this aspect up cost about the price of a used 3sgte 1st or 2nd gen. these are just a few minor arguments that helped me decide against sticking with the 4age in favor of the 3sgte. Even if doing wild modification such as a frankenstine setup with a 20V head and 3s block (if it were possible) i still would want to be able to use as many stock parts as possible in the design because i want a VERY reliable daily driven car as much as possible after all is said and done. If you dont agree with stock parts being more reliable let me just say that a stock part that can be sourced from toyota at a moments notice is better reliability in my view than a peformance part that takes 2 months to be shipped in. For those of you new to the world of the 4age websites like www.billzilla.org and www.club4ag.com are priceless information resources so get familar and best of luck. www.mrcontrols.com is the website that has given me the best tuner info on the 1st and 2nd gen 3sgte engines. pity the readings dont cater for all 4 or at least the first 3 generations. i hope this info helps somebody closer to their goal.

Sully · Postby **Sully** » July 16th, 2006, 8:24 pm

My reason for switching. It's more displacement, and it's turbo. There's way more tuning possibilities with the 3SGTE. The final goal was to use a larger turbo, and full engine management.

I gave up on all this because it's just way too difficult to find a good 3SGTE. I think that I'll wait a while to see what the new Supra is like.

Raziel · Postby **Raziel** » July 16th, 2006, 11:59 pm

Best person to talk to is Mr. Go Slow for a 20V -> 3S-GTE switch advice ...

Just don't expect a happy story :twisted:

bleedingfreak · Postby **bleedingfreak** » July 17th, 2006, 7:45 am

nasscott wrote: Am i the only person with a 20V blacktop on trinituner?

Hahah... no man.. you ain't...

But you have to know and understand that the project will cost you ALOT. If you think you were going to spend $20K, better budget for $30K... The little things are those that cost the money.

It's going in an BZ-Touring you say? Will definitely be a beast though...

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 19th, 2006, 4:05 pm

After stirring up some trouble on the other forums i've just decided to repost this bit cause i think its important...

nasscott wrote:has any toyota tuner on this site dyno tested their car or had the car officially timed up at wallerfield? im just curious. i hear alot of talk but after all this is a tuner website... if no one's actually tuning then whats the point of us being here?
for those who think im not walking the walk i'll be hitting the dyno with my "band aid" version of a 20V Blacktop at the end of next month... stay tuned... literally.

Terran · Postby **Terran** » July 19th, 2006, 5:02 pm

nasscott, what then are the possible repercussions of consistently high revving the blacktop? Are you referring to the extremes of racing, or just the occasional overtaking and hard acceleration associated with daily driving?

TESTED performance · Postby **TESTED performance** » July 19th, 2006, 6:34 pm

Theoretically it should be able to handle the overtaking daily driving high rev situation because of the design but even so i have an oil leak that occurs only when i drive hard in power mode which is above 7000 rpm. as for racing the engine i know someone who destroyed the valve train on 4 blacktops before switching over to a 3sgte. Even the shim clearances on mine seem to be out of whack (i'll know after i pull it apart next week) just from running the car too damn hard. i work in POS live in Sando. Everytime i go to work with it i probably run for 1/3 of the highway pretty hard between 160 and 200 Km/h. basically the seals give way more easily than you would expect and the valvetrain seems to pass out after too much high rev stress. Solution? well i have not tried it yet but since the cam shafts themselves cant be the problem i would suggest upgrading with a valve kit like the one toda racing has for the engine before doing too much 8500RPM pulls. as for the seals i dont know yet. I think that bent valves seemed to be the catastrophe that caused the failures of each blacktop used by the guy that raced them so i think the valvetrain kit is the best bet. im trying the toyota seals for the cam and crankshaft next week and if that fails its off to Nassco Barbados to see if TRD has a solution for the problem. either that or i'll just have to keep it at 7000 RPM and below. (yea right). Oh by the way toda's website seems to be down so if you need to find out about the valve train kit you may have to call. The number is 1 714 327 0181 The guy i used to deal with was Ali i dont know if he still works there but its worth a try. good luck and tell me what you find.

Bezman · Postby **Bezman** » July 20th, 2006, 10:35 am

i was reading about a lond speed record MR2 that was using a 600hp 3sgte that reved to 11,000rpm and the owner too was deliberating swapping a 20v head onto it, but he raised all kind of questions about quench area, valve releifs, bore centers, oiling etc.. not really worth it.. you can easily make 350whp on a erd gen 3SGTE with piggyback ECU, walbro and 550's, a turbo swap will be in order, cams are NOT needed... from 350 cams and a free flowing intake are KEY...

Alltrac - man what a good read

FATZ · Postby **FATZ** » July 20th, 2006, 11:19 am

nope, i've got one and parts are definitely hard to find in T&T, most of the time when i needed parts, i had to get someone in Barbados to get them for me, so far i had to get a waer pump and some other thing from Barbados. I also had to get distributor cables and a distributor but luckily a guy at Kissoons in curepe had a set of wires rom magnecore and i got a used distributor in the bamboo from Mahadeos otherwise, it has been pressure searching and locating parts.