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2009 Corolla - SQ Edition

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Firewall
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2009 Corolla - SQ Edition

Postby Firewall » January 24th, 2020, 10:47 pm

Hello all,

Some of you may be familiar with the 2009 corolla install I did a few years back. At that time, my focus was on solid installation technique and generally good sound. That install lasted a couple of years before it was removed, and the car has had a couple iterations since.

Mainly:
Image dynamics idq10 (x2) sealed fiberglass.
Image dynamics id xs65
Image dynamics id xs69

After one of the id xs65 randomly stopped working, all image dynamics midrange was removed and 2 faital pro 6fe200 were used with the id xs28 tweeter. Rear fill was not re-installed and a 10" rockford power hx2 was the sub of choice. At this time I was only interested in generally good sound. (i.e. clarity, tonality...... and lots of bass)

Fast forward to a few months ago where I had the distinct pleasure of demoing the white navara, at which point I finally heard what all the fuss is about. At that point, even though I had read / been reading several sq threads on many forums i decided to start from scratch.

I created this thread as a place to organise my thoughts and stimulate discussion around the sound quality journey.


TL;DR
Rebuild time!! SQ Edition

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Re: Essque

Postby Rovin » January 24th, 2020, 10:58 pm

subscribed ... 8-)

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Re: Essque

Postby kavaninho » January 25th, 2020, 8:50 am

Niceness!!!

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Re: Essque

Postby nervewrecker » January 25th, 2020, 10:55 pm

in like flynn

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Re: Essque

Postby SR » January 26th, 2020, 8:27 am

6 1/2" coaxial dls ur series in a bmw e30 kick panel

No tuning and centre image is defined but shifted slightly to the left with very good stereo separation

As with speakers in the kick stage height is a little low just around dash level

Panels custom made and bolted to the frame of the car freq response goes down to around 45hz with cabin gain


Excuse the black mess on the carpet remnants of a cheaper quality sound damping materiel that was used on the original kick panel.

This is my personal vehicle
IMG-20200123-WA0033.jpeg
IMG-20200123-WA0034.jpeg

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Re: Essque

Postby carluva » January 26th, 2020, 8:32 am

Locked in..

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Re: Essque

Postby nervewrecker » January 26th, 2020, 9:29 pm

SR wrote:6 1/2" coaxial dls ur series in a bmw e30 kick panel

No tuning and centre image is defined but shifted slightly to the left with very good stereo separation

As with speakers in the kick stage height is a little low just around dash level

Panels custom made and bolted to the frame of the car freq response goes down to around 45hz with cabin gain


Excuse the black mess on the carpet remnants of a cheaper quality sound damping materiel that was used on the original kick panel.

This is my personal vehicleIMG-20200123-WA0034.jpegIMG-20200123-WA0033.jpeg


Ah, so this is yours. Had a feeling when I saw the speakers.

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Re: Essque

Postby Firewall » January 26th, 2020, 10:49 pm

Mostly everything will be reinstalled from scratch (wires and rca's) so this is going to be a long process and updates may be far apart, but the end goal is as follows:

3 way front stage with sub(s) infinite baffle.

Equipment listing:
Amps: JL hd's
600/4 bridged to midbass
600/4 mids and tweeters
1200/1 sub (s)

So far, that is the only equipment decided.

I have also decided that I want to try installing the sub(s) infinite baffle so I have been doing research to that end.

The things that jump out to me as important for infinite baffle applications are Vas, Qts, Xmax and fs. (Sd came in later)
Vas - I have seen it mentioned that true infinite baffle starts at 10x Vas, but I have also seen people claim 1.4x Vas can also work. These were used as max/min ranges with the corolla trunk rated at 12.3 cf.
Qts/Qes - I have seen it said that for IB, Qes is a bit more relevant as the air spring of an enclosure is not present. Either way, both were looked at and their rekation to the fs.
Xmax - higher xmax, more air moves.
fs - how low the speaker can play in theory.

With slightly more than a basic understanding of how these parameters co-relate, online reviews and some coincidental classifieds action, I ended up with a pair of JL 12w6v3's.

Fs - 27hz
Qts - 0.46
Qes - 0.48
Vas - 1.92cf
Xmax - 19mm
Sd - 1.04 sqft

Seems that these should work well for the intended purpose.

Having obtained the jl's i set about to liquidate some equipment. However, I ran into some problems. I ended up trading my Rockford Hx2 Power for a jbl w15gti mk2.

Fs - 25
Qts - 0.48
Qms - 0.51
Vas - 4.67cf
Xmax - 20.32mm
Sd - 0.839 sq ft.

Seems it should also work well for the intended purpose.

So, that is the first choice that needs to be made. Which sub(s) to try first?

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Re: Essque

Postby VexXx Dogg » January 27th, 2020, 9:29 am

following.
Also those JL HDs are pornographic

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Re: Essque

Postby Firewall » January 27th, 2020, 10:06 am

VexXx Dogg wrote:following.
Also those JL HDs are pornographic
Here you go...
Checking layout options.ImageImage

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Re: Essque

Postby Rovin » January 27th, 2020, 12:31 pm

nice equipment man , JL ftw , i like JBL but i like JL more

though it may make accessibility & installation a lil harder i like d practicality of less space taken up with d stack design ...

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Re: Essque

Postby meccalli » January 27th, 2020, 3:22 pm

All of those subs are low Q, meaning you're going to have to pump more power, equalise the low end because of the fast roll off and keep in mind excursion issues because inherently those drivers are designed to be supported by an air spring which raises Q, rather than mechanical control via spiders and suitable motor force. Ideally you want a qts over at least .6, .8 and above being ideal for ib applications. Unless your trunk ib really ends up being a large sealed enclosure, which could work.

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Re: Essque

Postby Firewall » February 19th, 2020, 11:58 pm

Hey, i would like to address this on a point basis to further the discussion. Please note that i am not an expert, just going off my research (will post links where i can)

meccalli wrote:Unless your trunk ib really ends up being a large sealed enclosure, which could work.


Pretty much everything i have read indicates that iinfinite baffle for a vehicle (maybe better classified as trunk baffle?) can be modeled as a large sealed enclosure >1000cf and will have around the same output as a sealed enclosure. I think the main takeaway for "trunk baffle" would be to ensure the front and rear waves are separate.

meccalli wrote:keep in mind excursion issues because inherently those drivers are designed to be supported by an air spring which raises Q, rather than mechanical control via spiders and suitable motor force.


I agree with respect to excursion issues as with the efficiency of ib you can easily run into xmech if not careful. A subsonic filter can be useful in conjunction with modeling of the speaker to minimise this risk. While the jl does not have any specific tech to prevent bottoming out, the jbl has the split coil design to enable "magnetic braking" to prevent bottoming out/ over excursion.

meccalli wrote:Ideally you want a qts over at least .6, .8 and above being ideal for ib applications.


This one is a tricky one. Lets take ib out of the equation for a minute. It is widely regarded that a qtc of 0.707 is the target for a balance between limiting excursion below fs and smooth frequency response when using an enclosure. Going higher 0.8 - 1+ and the response gets very peaky. Also, i believe the vehicles transfer function, volume and speaker vas will play a role in raising the qts in ib.

Traditional wisdom suggests using high qts subs for ib as you did and also in this video:
https://youtu.be/GLKZVBYi-Lc
However, there are many contradicting views:
(Please read the first comment)

meccalli wrote:All of those subs are low Q, meaning you're going to have to pump more power, equalise the low end because of the fast roll off 


Taken from this thread:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/ ... se.276866/
ErinH wrote:Fs and Qts are tied at the hip. Fs defines where the rolloff of the driver is located. Qts defines what the rolloff shape looks like: shallow or high. The lower the Qts number the more shallow the rolloff. If you have a Qts > 0.7 it will have a resonant peak just before rolling off; and the higher in Q you go, the higher that rolloff rate will be. This is with all speakers, not just subwoofers.



If i am reading this correctly, lower qts subs will have a shallower rolloff at the fs, while higher qts subs will have a peak at fs before sharply rolling off.

I have decided to use the jbl w15 as the sub for this build. Also decided on the front stage. Will try for some pics tomorrow.

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Re: Essque

Postby Rovin » February 20th, 2020, 12:46 pm

technically its a trunk baffle , kinda like a 4th order

guys check out PSsound on youtube , he does some interesting stuff in sq .... https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKJUj7 ... jv5imYs6yA

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Re: Essque

Postby meccalli » February 23rd, 2020, 4:12 pm

Firewall wrote:Pretty much everything i have read indicates that iinfinite baffle for a vehicle (maybe better classified as trunk baffle?) can be modeled as a large sealed enclosure


This was basically the idea, which is why subs that won't work in a true ib application are found to perform well in a car. And so choosing drivers based on that simple fact influences all of the selection criteria like system q.

Firewall wrote:If i am reading this correctly, lower qts subs will have a shallower rolloff at the fs, while higher qts subs will have a peak at fs before sharply rolling off.

No, in both instances fs is the woofers natural resonance and will be efficient at that frequency, higher q subs roll off more slowly/shallower, which is why it makes it good for infinite baffle. Lower qts subs roll off sharply and will need eq below fs to attain a flat response. But again, factoring transfer function means that the lower q sub is able to manage very well because of the natural boost it receives. A higher q sub may in fact be overbearingly good below fs in the car environment and would need to be cut down using eq.
In cars, trying to get a flat response, you can go high Q, high fs or low Q, low fs. The latter tends to work better in an 'ib' application generally since you may end up with too high of a Qtc with the first option. But like I said, ideally a high Q sub with a low fs, although the low end will be bloated, will be most at home with the least amount of distortion or worries about mechanical control. Something like Fi's ib series.

https://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board ... knu-gates/

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Re: Essque

Postby Firewall » March 3rd, 2020, 7:08 pm

So this is what is planned for the 3 way "front stage"ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage

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Re: Essque

Postby Firewall » March 3rd, 2020, 7:26 pm

Tried some listening and aiming tests a few days ago. The only thing that I came up with so far is that I prefer on axis rather than off axis.

The 2 on axis points that I tried aiming at were

- the map light.
- the point where the center of the vehicle and the headrest perpendicular line intersects.

Preliminary listening suggests that I prefer point 1 more.
Image

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Re: Essque

Postby SR » March 4th, 2020, 10:02 pm

How are your centre images?

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Re: Essque

Postby SQBOY » March 4th, 2020, 10:22 pm

following .

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Re: Essque

Postby kavaninho » March 5th, 2020, 6:45 am

Great stuff, ensure when you fabbing the pillars make them most compact as possible as to not obscure your sight through the windscreen. Especially right side.

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Re: Essque

Postby Firewall » March 5th, 2020, 7:02 am

SR wrote:How are your centre images?
Center image seems more defined when aimed at point 1
kavaninho wrote:Great stuff, ensure when you fabbing the pillars make them most compact as possible as to not obscure your sight through the windscreen. Especially right side.
Definitely a concern for me. The speakers are a bit bigger than expected. Good looking out!

Image

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Re: Essque

Postby nervewrecker » March 5th, 2020, 8:46 am

Firewall wrote:So this is what is planned for the 3 way "front stage"ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage


lord put ah hand.

I am dribbling all over my keyboard.

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Re: Essque

Postby Rovin » March 5th, 2020, 11:11 am

nice !

non-sq guys checking this thread out must be wondering wtf going on :lol:

JBL ftw , nice to see something " a lil more common" & more down to earth than instead of some of d more "prestigious exotic brands"

imo these stock corollas front doors already have good acoustics so i eagerly awaits to hear how midbass response compares to mine , i myself want to try ah ting from d A pillars , just got to make a trip to d bamboo 1 day ... i doh want to frig up d original set :oops:

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Re: Essque

Postby SR » March 5th, 2020, 7:05 pm

Try raising the mounting height of the dash speakers worst case it needs to clear the gauge cluster.

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Re: Essque

Postby Firewall » March 5th, 2020, 7:46 pm

SR wrote:Try raising the mounting height of the dash speakers worst case it needs to clear the gauge cluster.
Based on some reading, i am thinking about bringing them more forward, in which case they will definitely need raising to clear the gauge cluster.

Its this thread mainly that makes me want to bring the midrange away from the windshield. (seriously, take a read)
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/on-axis-vs-off-axis.136438/
All of this is why I suggest mounting tweeters on axis, using a small mid between a 6 and a tweeter, and keeping speakers away from the junction of the dash, side window and windshield. Tweeters are not as big a problem as midrange speakers in that location


The flip side to this is to mount it as close to the windshield as possible
What this is doing is getting the drivers as physically close as possible to the prominent reflecting boundaries. What this does is it pushes the comb filtering as high up in frequency range as possible, and everything below that is mostly unaffected by the early reflections (in relation to the distance to said reflecting surface to X frequencies wavelength)


The plan is for the tweeters to be on axis in the sail panel, but this thread makes a case for everything in the a-pillar:
https://www.diymobileaudio.com/threads/2016-subaru-crosstrek-audiofrog-helix-zapco-illusion-resonix.425137/

The reason i believe that keeping them in the same plane vertically, isnt as simple as they can act like a single speaker and arrive at your ears at the same time. If the speakers are in different locations you can still use delays to make the DIRECT response in time. The problem is there is no way to control the on and off axis response of a speaker separately. Since the horizontal plane is more important in relation to dispersion, we want them vertically and close so not only the on axis response is in time/phase, but so is the off axis/reflected response. We have noticed some seriously good improvements when doing relatively simple systems with this method.


I will have to do some more testing for fitment before I decide.
Last edited by Firewall on March 5th, 2020, 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Essque

Postby nervewrecker » March 5th, 2020, 8:03 pm

Rovin wrote:nice !

non-sq guys checking this thread out must be wondering wtf going on [emoji38]

JBL ftw , nice to see something " a lil more common" & more down to earth than instead of some of d more "prestigious exotic brands"

imo these stock corollas front doors already have good acoustics so i eagerly awaits to hear how midbass response compares to mine , i myself want to try ah ting from d A pillars , just got to make a trip to d bamboo 1 day ... i doh want to frig up d original set :oops:
His last JBL set is what I'm using right now. Most people who heard it are impressed so I can't even imagine what these can do.

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Re: Essque

Postby altec » May 12th, 2020, 8:59 pm

Oh Gord!!! I am salivating at those JBL speakers..Still have my MS series amps (2 4 channels and a mono ) waiting to install.

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Re: Essque

Postby nervewrecker » May 16th, 2020, 8:42 pm

altec wrote:Oh Gord!!! I am salivating at those JBL speakers..Still have my MS series amps (2 4 channels and a mono ) waiting to install.


you dont need 2 4 channel bro....you dont need a pair bro.....sell me one plz :oops:

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Re: Essque

Postby altec » May 17th, 2020, 7:21 pm

bought em for 5.1 install with the front being mid + tweets. I am one step closer because I bought the jl 10tw3 yesterday.

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Re: Essque

Postby kavaninho » May 18th, 2020, 7:55 am

great sub you wont be disappointed.

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