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Good day to all,

I am Trevor the CARS committee member for Autocross and we the committee are discussing a couple rule changes and we would like to hear your comments.

First rule change is on LSD. Presently the rule states, any added OEM LSD is a 2 point penalty.
Firstly, your car is placed in a class based on it power to weight ratio. Then final classification is determined by penalty points.
Since an LSD is a performance mod and its performance is not picked up by the dyno. We the committee believe that all cars with LSD should be penalized, thus creating a more competitive field.

Second rule change is on Intercoolers. Presently the rule states that any upgraded intercooler / piping is a 1 point penalty. This means any car which has upgraded intercooler / piping from that of OEM. Again the power gained by any intercooler is not really picked up by the dyno. Should this be penalized across board.

Remember, we all need your comments / views so as to make an informed decision.

Ahhh, I was waiting for this discussion,
my opinion on the rules in general are that they are good,the times when penalties are awarded are fine with me, i just want there to be clarity with respect to OEM upgrades and Aftermarket upgrades. As i have said before, i am sure this issue came up in the past and will probably come up again, and it should be stated in the rules where the club stands so that persons will know from before hand if they going to get penalized and by how much, and so that the committee can refer persons to the rules and avoid unnecessary protests.

Now for the specific matters at hand, penalties for car with LSD regardless of where the LSD come from or if it came on the car brand new . . . . i agree (how many penalty points is another issue)

I don't understand the intercooler issue, i would thought that any gains to be had from a larger intercooler would show itself on the dyno, after i better understand this intercooler business i'll through in my 2cents on that

The purpose of the classification rules for CARS Autocross is to try to group as best as possible cars with different amounts of power, suspension setups, brakes and tyres to try and make the racing more and more dependent on the driver alone.

The question of "should a car that came with a part as OEM get penalty points for it" is something I had been wondering about before.

Take for example, there was a guy who had a B14 that did not come with a front sway bar, he installed one and that combined with another mod bumped him to a higher class.

Then on the flip side, what if someone takes a Type R civic, excellent suspension and good handling characteristics and puts a non-vtec D15B and drops it down 1 or two classes.

In the first instance, is it fair that the person driving the B14 be bumped whereas a B14 that came with the sway bar from factory and has the same mod wouldn't? In the second, is it fair that a car with better handling characteristics be put in their class because of the P:W ratio when the suspension is far superior?

The hard part then comes down to the classification. Should all the cars start off as a "base car" and for each component that improves the handling/performance assign a point system?

Maybe:
Front sway bar - Any OEM 1 point
Front sway bar - aftermarket 2 points

Rear sway bar - Any OEM 1 point
Rear sway bar - aftermarket 2 points

Sport springs - Any OEM 1 point
Sport Springs - Aftermarket 2 point

Sport shocks - Any OEM 1 point
Sport shocks - Aftemarket 2 points

Coilovers - 5 points

Upgraded Gearing
Any OEM - 1 point
Aftermarket - 2 points

LSD
Any OEM - 1 point
Aftermarket - 2 points

Intercooler
Any OEM - 1 point
Aftermarket - 2 points

etc. etc

Problem with this is where do we draw the line at trying to classify the cars? Some cars naturally do better at Solodex because of their design, shorter wheelbase cars handle the low speed corners better than bigger vehicles. Should they get some points for that too?

With all that, it might scare people off. The rules we have now, to me, are fairly adequate and are fairly easy for marshalls etc to check on a car. It's much more equal IMHO than simply having classification based on engine size.

WRT the LSD thing, it makes cars faster as it will let you put down more power, especially coming out of a corner. How much faster would it be than the exact car without it? It's hard to say.

Maybe one option with the existing penalty points could be to increase the number of points allowed as you go up in classes?

i'm completely fine with the suggested means of classing wrt lsds. even more so with what pete suggested..

the intercooler thing? not sure it makes sense. intercoolers do a good and very measurable job of heat dissipation and it can be picked up on a dyno run. if the issue if up for discussion, i suggest a fixed amount of points to be added based on any UPSIZE from oem spec intercoolers. a turbocharged car should be assumed to be inherently intercooled.

as it stands, it appears any stock, let's say, evo or wrx gains a point just for having an intercooler out the factory

pete wrote:
Maybe one option with the existing penalty points could be to increase the number of points allowed as you go up in classes?

i suggested this two years ago ......

first bump 4 points
second bump 5 points
third bump 6 points

this way ...a 84hp b14 with race tires, coilovers and a sway bar doesnt end up in open class

but back to the topic ......

oem lsd - 1 point
aftermarket - 2 points

intercoolers - 0 points

Razkal wrote: as it stands, it appears any stock, let's say, evo or wrx gains a point just for having an intercooler out the factory

in the current wording yes, what if any intercooler is a free mod for all cars / classes?
if the belief is the dyno would reflect it.

Ignorant Ignis wrote:

i suggested this two years ago ......

first bump 4 points
second bump 5 points
third bump 6 points

this way ...a 84hp b14 with race tires, coilovers and a sway bar doesnt end up in open class

but back to the topic ......

oem lsd - 1 point
aftermarket - 2 points

intercoolers - 0 points

I agree 100% with Amir's recomendations.

rado wrote:

Ignorant Ignis wrote:

i suggested this two years ago ......

first bump 4 points
second bump 5 points
third bump 6 points

this way ...a 84hp b14 with race tires, coilovers and a sway bar doesnt end up in open class

but back to the topic ......

oem lsd - 1 point
aftermarket - 2 points

intercoolers - 0 points

I agree 100% with Amir's recomendations.

Seconded!

Diminishing returns with mods...

First few mods are like - "WOW".... after a while you can barely feel a difference

ingalook wrote:

rado wrote:

Ignorant Ignis wrote:

i suggested this two years ago ......

first bump 4 points
second bump 5 points
third bump 6 points

this way ...a 84hp b14 with race tires, coilovers and a sway bar doesnt end up in open class

but back to the topic ......

oem lsd - 1 point
aftermarket - 2 points

intercoolers - 0 points

I agree 100% with Amir's recomendations.

Seconded!

Thirded

Very interesting comments!!!!!

Guys, thanks for your comments. I hope your words would help others to overcome their fear of the keyboard.

You all raised valid points and we the committee will discuss them in our next meeting.

Pete hit the nail on the head. Autrocross should be the grouping of cars in a class so that the driving skills makes a difference.

The issue with the intercooler is that someone should not be double penalized for having an intercooler if the dyno picks up the power gain.

Keep the comments comming and lets discuss them some more on Sunday.

i dont agree with the base classing and then adding points though. because for instance. a stock rear on a sir is only 13mm. are you then telling me i could remove the stock and add a 26mm bar and only be penalized the same points. i think add-on's other than stock should be penalized.

I do agree with amirs point though. but then this widens between classes. but still a very good idea

From my breakdown, the 26mm would be aftermarket and therefore get more points than a stock one.

26mm rear bar? Think there us a 22mm aftermarket and Type-r ... ASR has a 24mm solid and 32mm hollow bar as well...

26mm is a hard to find mugen bar... just some info

The 5 point penalty for coilovers... needs to be more specific, some are just basic systems while others give a ridiculous amount of tunanbility.... you penalising a man with 250lb f and 175lb r springs with only height adjustment the same as someone on 800lb f 1000lb r height/damping/spring tension?

5 point penalty for coil overs!!!! I thought it was 3. If the rules have been updated please post a link

rado wrote:5 point penalty for coil overs!!!! I thought it was 3. If the rules have been updated please post a link

that was just a suggestion....its still 3 points right now......if/when rules change it will be made clear

All im saying is that there are oem replacements that do the same as aftermarket if not better. eg. sti shock and spring vs tein s tech and kyb oem replacements on a ts. i think the rules are fine as ia but amirs suggestion is a perfect addition.

Only problem with increasing the points as you go up is the lower classed car that got bumped initially won't get bumped for say race tyres, unless that's just an automatic bump and not based on points.

I know with those faster courses last year I was really worried about my car in the higher class just on race tyres

I agree, the rules we have as it stands are good, only maybe need to clarify the things that came up this year. Plus changing the rules every year kinda makes it hard for people to plan what they want to do with their car in the future while optimizing for competitiveness.

well race tires i guess would stay a class bump as there is nothing to argue against there improvement in handling by saying the return on improvement is diminished as you go up in class.

great comments so far...i like Amirs suggestion...just remember guys its really hard to check suspension mods...so the simpler we keep it the better

DEVI wrote:great comments so far...i like Amirs suggestion...just remember guys its really hard to check suspension mods...so the simpler we keep it the better

wrt difficulty to check suspension mods or any other mods for that matter , i think C.A.R.S. has been relying on the honesty of its members, cause if someone really wanted to be dishonest and hide their upgrades, its not that hard to do (depending on the mod)

I too like the idea of increasing the number of penalty points available before a bump is awarded after each bump has been received, cause as it was pointed out by someone at he dyno day, if you compare a stock civic type R and a civic EXi that has has been upgraded with as many type R parts as possible, they will not end up in the same class, the built car will be in a higher class due to penalties (or something like that, i haven't done the math to verify but you get the point) and while the rules ca't be modified to ensure that the aforementioned civics end up i the same class, Amir's suggestion will ensure that a B14 with level mods and no big engine won't end up in open class . . .

i think it should be recognized though that no amount of rule changes is gonna make it "fair" for everbody

I noticed only one car in EP... I think I can bump myself up there... anyone from SS want to come with me?

Although only one car Dyno'd in EP that doesn't mean that there won't be more competition in EP eh.

pete wrote:Although only one car Dyno'd in EP that doesn't mean that there won't be more competition in EP eh.

you love ruining surprises eh.

OK kool... just don't want to be in a class with no people... I'll take the bump... coilovers and LSD bump mih arse up

Still have some sortig to do with my car... changing my back springs to something softer... 175lb cause I fell it will ride nicer (understeer here I come....)

whiz....thats exactly what i meant by keep it simple

ingalook wrote:I noticed only one car in EP... I think I can bump myself up there... anyone from SS want to come with me?

yeah, come een narrrr.

crazybalhead wrote:

ingalook wrote:I noticed only one car in EP... I think I can bump myself up there... anyone from SS want to come with me?

yeah, come een narrrr.

lol......... party go be nice

Ignorant Ignis wrote:

crazybalhead wrote:

ingalook wrote:I noticed only one car in EP... I think I can bump myself up there... anyone from SS want to come with me?

yeah, come een narrrr.

lol......... party go be nice

Well I trying to be fair an ting... car have mods... if other me getting bump I man should get bump too...

I ONLY have about 160-180whp on tap though, go easy on mih

On an unrelated note.... anything with an "Ultra Racing" sticker on it should be an automatic 2 points.... dat shizzle too full of win