Seat Extenders?

[Lance]

Judges,Unfortunately due to no fault of mine, i wasn't able to attend the last competitor's training,

I would Like to know the final word if any has been decided,

If a vehicle has seat extenders, will it be bumped up? Please, Also, if you could furnish me with a detailed justification if such a decision has been taken . It would Gladly be Appreciated.

[jeff]

actualy i had asked about this already and 2 certified judges both told me the same thing, one of which being a team captain...i guess if your asking this question, one of the judges may not remember i had asked him this

that seat extenders even though its not set in rules, in their opinion this should be in a higher class ethically but i guess this is one of the things set in gray and is up to the competitor to do as such

eg there is no rule stating if anyone seriously mods their dash and firewall that they should be bumped up but to promote the sport it just wont be fair for newcommers

[nigel1977]

Its definately NOT rookie stuff tho. LOL.

[Lance]

It really doesn't matter who i asked firstly, although certified, come competition time, they are not judging my vehicle, i've seen too many times certified judges have differentiating opinions from that of the officials on show day, I wanted to hear it straight from IASCA's mouth, if you know what i mean.

seat extenders are 4 pieces of steel of equal size, with holes drilled out which attach to the vehicle's existing threads and then futher attached to the seat. I had much more difficuilty building my A pillars. Thats why i dont see the justification, Thats ofcourse providing that a bump is necessary.

[SR]

so basically its a mod to the structural integrity of the seat from how the manufacturer intended it for the vehicle?

thus in theory the interior of the vehicle is not stock and the mods have nothing to do with the installation of the equipment but the vehicle itself to improve how one "hears" the sound in the vehicle

would that be considered the same as if the dash was completely rebuilt ?

would that be allowed in amateur?


somthing to think about

[Lance]

so basically its a mod to the structural integrity of the seat from how the manufacturer intended it for the vehicle?

thus in theory the interior of the vehicle is not stock and the mods have nothing to do with the installation of the equipment but the vehicle itself to improve how one "hears" the sound in the vehicle

would that be considered the same as if the dash was completely rebuilt ?

would that be allowed in amateur?


somthing to think about

You simply cannot compare a complete dash rebuild to seat extenders,

thus in theory the interior of the vehicle is not stock and the mods have nothing to do with the installation of the equipment but the vehicle itself to improve how one "hears" the sound in the vehicle

This really has no weight in our discussion,

Take Kickpanels for instance, are those not mods to the interior of the vehicle? to get kick panels to fit are those not mods to the interior of the vehicle? 99.9% of people using kickpanels WORLDWIDE from rookie upwards require modification.

You do either 1 of 2 things

1. Cut steel to get the speaker to fit

2. Cut and extend wires at the Traction Box which is usually located at the kickpanel,

Did the manufacturer intend/anticipate for you to do such things?

This is NO different from the theory of kickpanels,


I'm still LOLing and how you can compare a complete dash rebuild to seat extenders.

[SR]

do you need to adjust the seat for speakers to fit?

what about moving the seat from the oem location to a bit more centre as well


the comparison is in whats the purpose of it

why do you need to use seat extenders unless you are too tall for the vehicle

isnt the point of extending the seat backwards to improve your stage depth due the physical limitations of the existing install based on the dimensions of the vehicle
with the seat extended backwards how practicl would it be to drive on the street??

would this now become a "trailor" queen?

you can LOL all you want but its more common sense


kick panels are made to accomodate the installation of the speakers

moving the seats backwards has nothing to do with the installation of the speakers

[SR]

and to answer the question
as a judge i would classify the vehicle as a pro due to mods done to the oem interior

[Lance]

Do speakers Need to be in the kickpanel? doesnt the car have an OEM location?


The Point of Extending seats does NOT have to because of Depth issues, it could actually be for the SAME reason as kick panels, Reduction of PLD's. people dont put speakers in kickpanels because its a nice, cool and safe location for speakers, Its always the underlying effect on sound, Same for Seat brackets.

But please, render the verdict, so I can make the necessary changes, I've given up on the ability of these discussions to render any sort of meaningful change or justification.

[Lance]

I Took too long to reply,

Thank you for your time, and understanding.

[SR]

Ok so just discussed this issue with the UK install judge


Seat adjustments are allowed in all classes however

" oh yes, if install judge has concerns then they MUST get the driver to sit in and watch them operate ALL the controls/pedals etc "

"without readjusting the seat position, Sound is done from a driving position for the DRIVER and not the judge "


in other words
if the install judge has a concern with the seat adjustment then the competitor can be asked to show the ability to be able to safely drive the vehicle and reach all the necessary controls

this will aslo be brought up at the judges trianing for a definitive take worldwide

[SR]

the sound judge will have the fianl say on the seat ruling

if the vehicle is presented to the sound judge and in sound sound judges opininion the seat is too far back
the competitor can be asked to show ability to drive the vehicle in its presented state


IE

if a 5 ft competitor presents the car to a 5 ft judge and the judge cannot reach the pedals then the competitor has to show the ability to drive the car

if a 7 ft competitor presents the car to a 5 ft judge and the judge cannot reach the pedals then its obvious


in may occasions in the past (not locally) vehicles have been presented with seats adjusted way to far back for practical use
and these have to re classified as it was impossible for the competitor to actually drive the vehicle in its present state hence my quick choice to move the comeptitor up

keep in mind the judge does not make any seat adjustments when sitting in the car and if it is uncomfortable the judge asks the competitor to make the adjustment

lots of times competitors will look at the height of the judge and make seat adjsutments accordinbgly before the judge enters the vehicle

[nigel1977]

IT IS NOT A DRIVING CONTEST. It is OBVIOUS that the vehicle must be driven into the lanes. Its is also NOT necessary that the sound and or install judge be able to drive the vehicle during the SOUND portion of the contest. I don't see why the hell that would ever be an issue.

if the vehicle is presented to the sound judge and in sound sound judges opininion the seat is too far back
the competitor can be asked to show ability to drive the vehicle in its presented state

I think it would be quite thoughtless of a competitor to fabricate seat extender brackets such that when the seat is slid forward, that the vehicle is not useable. Please. Be serious. Anybody, who knows anything about seat extender brackets, will know that the seat itself isnt extended, but rather the mounting holes of the seat rails are extended back. The seat itslef is still 100% functional, and will still slide forward and back. NOT LEFT AND RIGHT even though the seat could be pushed further inwards if needed. The range of travel of the seat on the rails is unchanged. the only difference, is that the seat's range of travel is shifted backwards, by the length of the bracket hole spacing. Its NOT chess... its checkers.

I distinctly remember asking this question at the last Training, and the short answer was, NOT IN ROOKIE.

What is the point people PAY to attend judges and competitors training by 1 judge, only to have a different ruling enforced by another.


LANCE, I suggest you post this question in the relevant forums on WWW.IASCA.COM., but I doubt anyone will have any more questions regarding this, by the time they are done reading this post.

THE ONLY SAY a sound judge has wrt to the seat position, is that it is uncomfortable and that the backrest is reclined greater than 45 degrees.

Its in the rule book as well.

SQ-6

10. Gas, brake, or clutch pedals are not required to be within the reach of the sound quality Judges. Points will not be deducted by the Judges, including the judging of Ergonomics, if the Judges cannot reach these pedals.
11. During testing and scoring, the Judge must sit in the front seat/s of the vehicle, facing forward; this applies to all vehicles. Competing vehicles must have at least two front seating positions, aligned side to side (1 left seat, 1 right seat), not front to rear.
12. A Sound Quality Judge is not allowed to change the position of the seat to judge the sound system, unless this position is deemed unreasonable or uncomfortable for the Judge. The Judge must involve the competitor when making any adjustments. It will be the decision of the Sound Judge to determine if the seat positions are uncomfortable. Any seats that are reclined to more than a 45 degree angle may be considered unreasonable.

Please be guided by what is printed in the rule book, and not what is an interpretation of the rule.

[jeff]

^^ i agree that it is not in the rules, a grey area as such but...in terms of the sport, imo that is not encouragin the sport in lower classes especially in trinidad where sq competitors are scarce

the said car/s in question why not compete in pro?

[nigel1977]

Why should he?

Because he chose to better his system?

Why dont you come in pro with your dash mounted midranges?

[wagonrunner]

the said car/s in question why not compete in pro?

not a soundman, but why does that happen in any competition .............. no confidence that they can win, so compete where they can improve their odds.

[jeff]

Why should he?

Because he chose to better his system?

Why dont you come in pro with your dash mounted midranges?

there are special plans for this year

come april 26th your questions will be answered

[nigel1977]

We'll see.

[SR]

IT IS NOT A DRIVING CONTEST. It is OBVIOUS that the vehicle must be driven into the lanes. Its is also NOT necessary that the sound and or install judge be able to drive the vehicle during the SOUND portion of the contest. I don't see why the hell that would ever be an issue.

if the vehicle is presented to the sound judge and in sound sound judges opininion the seat is too far back
the competitor can be asked to show ability to drive the vehicle in its presented state

I think it would be quite thoughtless of a competitor to fabricate seat extender brackets such that when the seat is slid forward, that the vehicle is not useable. Please. Be serious. Anybody, who knows anything about seat extender brackets, will know that the seat itself isnt extended, but rather the mounting holes of the seat rails are extended back. The seat itslef is still 100% functional, and will still slide forward and back. NOT LEFT AND RIGHT even though the seat could be pushed further inwards if needed. The range of travel of the seat on the rails is unchanged. the only difference, is that the seat's range of travel is shifted backwards, by the length of the bracket hole spacing. Its NOT chess... its checkers.

I distinctly remember asking this question at the last Training, and the short answer was, NOT IN ROOKIE.

What is the point people PAY to attend judges and competitors training by 1 judge, only to have a different ruling enforced by another.


LANCE, I suggest you post this question in the relevant forums on WWW.IASCA.COM., but I doubt anyone will have any more questions regarding this, by the time they are done reading this post.

THE ONLY SAY a sound judge has wrt to the seat position, is that it is uncomfortable and that the backrest is reclined greater than 45 degrees.

Its in the rule book as well.

SQ-6

10. Gas, brake, or clutch pedals are not required to be within the reach of the sound quality Judges. Points will not be deducted by the Judges, including the judging of Ergonomics, if the Judges cannot reach these pedals.
11. During testing and scoring, the Judge must sit in the front seat/s of the vehicle, facing forward; this applies to all vehicles. Competing vehicles must have at least two front seating positions, aligned side to side (1 left seat, 1 right seat), not front to rear.
12. A Sound Quality Judge is not allowed to change the position of the seat to judge the sound system, unless this position is deemed unreasonable or uncomfortable for the Judge. The Judge must involve the competitor when making any adjustments. It will be the decision of the Sound Judge to determine if the seat positions are uncomfortable. Any seats that are reclined to more than a 45 degree angle may be considered unreasonable.

Please be guided by what is printed in the rule book, and not what is an interpretation of the rule.

based on this post
i ask this question

why was the original psot even asked at all

lance is a memebr of team hybrid
nigell is the team leader

everyone has access to the rules
why the debate then

as team leader one would expect to be guiding team members in the right path
and if the team leader already has the info then what is the point of the post??



or is it that team hybrid has no confidence in the judges decisions locally

as there have been a few other posts in the past leading in the same manner



As i said before
there is a new foramt for judges trainign and coming out of it the "grey" areas will be debated and discussed

at the end of the day the rules and guidlines are set by IASCA and no team or manufacturer to suit their own personal views

as well as in the past different judges have different views regarding interpretations on the rule book however if the same judge is judging the entrie competition at an even there there is no issue on the interpretation as it applies acorss the board for all competitors

however some may feel that they are being "spited" based on rulings of the judge and this is not the case

its unfortunate that most if not all these issues are being raised by the same people
maybe its becasue they want to win and are looking for every way possble that they think the rules will afford them
nothing is wrong with that


however whats the point in winning in a class that you already know that you are way ahead of the competition

are you afraid of stepping up with others who are in your league or is it just a trophy thing

on the other hand
once the competitor stays within the rules and uses them to the max then they are deserving to win over the rest as they took the time to design and build to get the best out of their system



again these are all issues that have been brought up over and over again in meetings and everyone still has their own view on some items

this is why the judges training is being conducted by one facilitator across the board and at the end of it everything will be definitive

this is also being done for a somthing new in the future from IASCA

at the end of it no matter what my view is or the uk's view regarding installation a common decision will be applied across the board and all judges will be clear

this will no longer be up for debate or discussion after SBN

this is why we do not start our season locally untill after SBN due to changes that may be made to the rules and categories

[nigel1977]

Very nice response.

So how do you really feel?

[SR]

my personal views on the seat extenders is that it goes PRO

vehicle interior should be stock with the exception of build outs etc for installation of speakers


if anyone has the original old school iasca rule book that was the rule

over the eyars rules seem to have been bended and changed due to some "whiny ass" competitors who had industry backing and forced iasca into making allowances to suit them otherwise they wont compete

and whil iasca makes rules for the competitor iasca also has to support the industry and there alwasy is a fine line that has to be drawn in pleasing the competitor and the industry

while its always an ongoing struggle IASCA still is the only organisation that is willing to debate to try and get a common gorund that will be fair to all
some times it swings one way more than the other but in reality do you think its possible to please everyone all the time and still have a fair honest competion


while its not a "driving" competition a new analagy can be made

crowd pleaser..........its not a driving competition so why can people have speakers resting on top of the vehicle ................

yuh get my point

it strays from true car audio to just audio in a car


whats the difference from moving the seat back to removing the 2 seats completly and just putting on seat in the centre........plds will now be even not so

[Lance]

IT IS NOT A DRIVING CONTEST. It is OBVIOUS that the vehicle must be driven into the lanes. Its is also NOT necessary that the sound and or install judge be able to drive the vehicle during the SOUND portion of the contest. I don't see why the hell that would ever be an issue.

if the vehicle is presented to the sound judge and in sound sound judges opininion the seat is too far back
the competitor can be asked to show ability to drive the vehicle in its presented state

I think it would be quite thoughtless of a competitor to fabricate seat extender brackets such that when the seat is slid forward, that the vehicle is not useable. Please. Be serious. Anybody, who knows anything about seat extender brackets, will know that the seat itself isnt extended, but rather the mounting holes of the seat rails are extended back. The seat itslef is still 100% functional, and will still slide forward and back. NOT LEFT AND RIGHT even though the seat could be pushed further inwards if needed. The range of travel of the seat on the rails is unchanged. the only difference, is that the seat's range of travel is shifted backwards, by the length of the bracket hole spacing. Its NOT chess... its checkers.

I distinctly remember asking this question at the last Training, and the short answer was, NOT IN ROOKIE.

What is the point people PAY to attend judges and competitors training by 1 judge, only to have a different ruling enforced by another.


LANCE, I suggest you post this question in the relevant forums on WWW.IASCA.COM., but I doubt anyone will have any more questions regarding this, by the time they are done reading this post.

THE ONLY SAY a sound judge has wrt to the seat position, is that it is uncomfortable and that the backrest is reclined greater than 45 degrees.

Its in the rule book as well.

SQ-6

10. Gas, brake, or clutch pedals are not required to be within the reach of the sound quality Judges. Points will not be deducted by the Judges, including the judging of Ergonomics, if the Judges cannot reach these pedals.
11. During testing and scoring, the Judge must sit in the front seat/s of the vehicle, facing forward; this applies to all vehicles. Competing vehicles must have at least two front seating positions, aligned side to side (1 left seat, 1 right seat), not front to rear.
12. A Sound Quality Judge is not allowed to change the position of the seat to judge the sound system, unless this position is deemed unreasonable or uncomfortable for the Judge. The Judge must involve the competitor when making any adjustments. It will be the decision of the Sound Judge to determine if the seat positions are uncomfortable. Any seats that are reclined to more than a 45 degree angle may be considered unreasonable.

Please be guided by what is printed in the rule book, and not what is an interpretation of the rule.

based on this post
i ask this question

why was the original psot even asked at all

lance is a memebr of team hybrid
nigell is the team leader

everyone has access to the rules
why the debate then

as team leader one would expect to be guiding team members in the right path
and if the team leader already has the info then what is the point of the post??



or is it that team hybrid has no confidence in the judges decisions locally

as there have been a few other posts in the past leading in the same manner



As i said before
there is a new foramt for judges trainign and coming out of it the "grey" areas will be debated and discussed

at the end of the day the rules and guidlines are set by IASCA and no team or manufacturer to suit their own personal views

as well as in the past different judges have different views regarding interpretations on the rule book however if the same judge is judging the entrie competition at an even there there is no issue on the interpretation as it applies acorss the board for all competitors

however some may feel that they are being "spited" based on rulings of the judge and this is not the case

its unfortunate that most if not all these issues are being raised by the same people
maybe its becasue they want to win and are looking for every way possble that they think the rules will afford them
nothing is wrong with that


however whats the point in winning in a class that you already know that you are way ahead of the competition

are you afraid of stepping up with others who are in your league or is it just a trophy thing

on the other hand
once the competitor stays within the rules and uses them to the max then they are deserving to win over the rest as they took the time to design and build to get the best out of their system



again these are all issues that have been brought up over and over again in meetings and everyone still has their own view on some items

this is why the judges training is being conducted by one facilitator across the board and at the end of it everything will be definitive

this is also being done for a somthing new in the future from IASCA

at the end of it no matter what my view is or the uk's view regarding installation a common decision will be applied across the board and all judges will be clear

this will no longer be up for debate or discussion after SBN

this is why we do not start our season locally untill after SBN due to changes that may be made to the rules and categories

Why wouldn't i ask this question here?

Nigel is My team Captain, But is he judging my vehicle come competition day?

90% of all these ''posts'' in the past which you speak of dating back to SPL times, have been started by ME, and YOU know that, this has NOTHING to do with Team hybrids or their lack of confidence in the judging Team, Its not good to assume things. If we didn't have faith in the system we wouldn't be competing.

This is how i do things, I Like to be certain and thorough. I rather not show up on competition without certainty. You have somehow managed to twist this into a obsessive compulsive need to Win. good job.

We are a team, comprising of multiple members, how much sense would it make for 4 team mates to be grouped into 1 class ONLY because of technicalities in the rules? That was the MAIN and ONLY reason for this thread. , Not to get 1UP on other amateur competitors. Did you consider that to be the motive?

Please This is My Last Post in the thread before i'm made out to be a bobolizer of some sort. Just State you FINAL verdict so i can Move up to PRO if the need be, because the brackets Are NOT coming off.

[silent_riot]

May I humbly suggest that these sort of discussions be done in person, and the result be posted on the forum? Can a competitors' meeting be held to discuss these matters? Conference in foreign judges?

I am not questioning anyone's ability to clarify the rules, in fact I commend it.
However, as an "outsider", too often I see that ridiculing undertones are being exchanged back and forth, and the thread is becoming personalized rather than providing a straight resolution.

While it may not be apparent, I think it also has a disappointing effect on those who are interested in competition and are looking at how things are being handled now.
Even the foreign forums are noticing the arguing more than the points raised http://www.speednsound.co.za/forum/view ... hp?t=38773

[edhardy]

May I humbly suggest that these sort of discussions be done in person, and the result be posted on the forum? Can a competitors' meeting be held to discuss these matters? Conference in foreign judges?

I am not questioning anyone's ability to clarify the rules, in fact I commend it.
However, as an "outsider", too often I see that ridiculing undertones are being exchanged back and forth, and the thread is becoming personalized rather than providing a straight resolution.


While it may not be apparent, I think it also has a disappointing effect on those who are interested in competition and are looking at how things are being handled now.
Even the foreign forums are noticing the arguing more than the points raised

*2

[Sully]

The training at SBN should have a lot of discussion. Hopefully any grey areas in the rules would be brought up before that training session so that we don't have "conversations" like these later in the competition season.

My view point: go back to the old rules where there was fewer ways to interpret the rules.

[jeff]

for years now grey areas keep popppin up all because of one major question that was never seriously addressed

in spl there are strict classes with requirements wrt install but not in sq

i always found it to not make sense as suppose a pro builds a pro car for a 'rookie' does that mean, because its not the pro's car it becomes a rookie?

so then technically an ultimate install could be built for a rookie car or any other class

i am all for healthy discussion, no one needs to quarrel about anything, i personally find this kilin it, every year must this happen?

at the end of the day what ever is decided i'm fine with once its agreed upon by the heads, im just a small fry in this organisation that has been going on years

[edhardy]

Trinidad is a small place. Everybody knows everyone else and a lot of 'friend' and 'padna' thing goes on. We know this is true even though we may not like to admit it. I truly feel as long as brand dealers and persons affiliated with certain products and teams are judges we will have some sort of bias whether it be real or imagined. I'm not speaking directly to anyone but to everyone..............But then again,without these persons who will take up the responsability?
Just remember when you represent IASCA, product, team, friendship and everything else comes second.
We just have to search ourselves and see what is more important..........winning or the sport itself?
(Sorry to spam this thread but these questions sometimes raise questions about the the fairness of the competitions and can be a deterrant to potential new competitors..........me being one of those)

[SR]

After discussions with IASCA training officials it was agreed that interior modification has been overlooked with regards to classifications in sq
it is however in detail for IdBL

for the 2009 rules there is nothing that states seat extensions are not allowed
even though we are in agreement that there should be a classiification for it we can olny go as the rule book states
however when the rules are being reveiwed in october november interior modifications will be taken into consideration which includes seat extensions and replacment/modifications of the rear seat etc

these changes are already clearly defined for IdBl but was overlooked in sq over the years.............



seat extensions will be allowed in all classes including rookie class for 2009

however keep in mind that this wil change for the 2010 revision of the rules as we were all in agreement that seat extensions should not be allowed in the rookie class and possibly amateur as well

[nigel1977]

^^^thanks for the feedback.