Moderator: 3ne2nr Mods
hover11 wrote:No matter what the price ppl will continue buying , even at the cost of 7 year and 8 year loans to show others that they can "afford" it
carluva wrote:hover11 wrote:No matter what the price ppl will continue buying , even at the cost of 7 year and 8 year loans to show others that they can "afford" it
So true.
And therein lies one of the reasons that car dealers have consumers in the vice grip. Everyone will rush to buy the vehicle and most of the buyers are the same ones who will either complain, or at least remark, on the high cost.
I really cannot understand how people are still buying vehicles so crazily when, in these COVID times when the country is under some measure of financial pressure, persons are losing jobs due to COVID or a shrinking energy industry and many more people are working from home. If anything, these two reasons alone should justify why one should hold on to one's vehicle (provided that one's vehicle is in a satisfactory state) and avoid purchasing a new one.
Even banks are desperate for your business (hence these long term vehicle loans). Funny story - every year around Xmas, a very profitable local bank calls its customers about a loan sale... Last year I got my call and the agent is all but begging me for the business citing very low interest rates, fast approval and flexible loan terms. I kept rejecting until I told him that I would be more than happy to take the loan if it is offered to me interest free, as that'll be the only condition which satisfies me... Of course the conversation soon ended. But my point is that every business wants our money and if we can just band our bellies and defer purchases, simple macro-economics will force prices to become more affordable to consumers.
Simply put, if consumers defer purchasing new vehicles, supply will exceed demand and once this happens, one option is that dealers can reduce prices to improve sales thereby benefitting the consumer.
Alas, this is not going to happen because there are always a handful of consumers who want and must have. This in itself a microcosm of our societal behaviour in that we simply cannot "unite" to improve a situation for all.
hover11 wrote:Well said ....a new vehicle is a liability and some of these prices making me think to buy land , how in God's green earth can a car be the same price as a lot of land and people are ok with that...covid really showed me the difference between wants and needs , a new vehicle is not a needcarluva wrote:hover11 wrote:No matter what the price ppl will continue buying , even at the cost of 7 year and 8 year loans to show others that they can "afford" it
So true.
And therein lies one of the reasons that car dealers have consumers in the vice grip. Everyone will rush to buy the vehicle and most of the buyers are the same ones who will either complain, or at least remark, on the high cost.
I really cannot understand how people are still buying vehicles so crazily when, in these COVID times when the country is under some measure of financial pressure, persons are losing jobs due to COVID or a shrinking energy industry and many more people are working from home. If anything, these two reasons alone should justify why one should hold on to one's vehicle (provided that one's vehicle is in a satisfactory state) and avoid purchasing a new one.
Even banks are desperate for your business (hence these long term vehicle loans). Funny story - every year around Xmas, a very profitable local bank calls its customers about a loan sale... Last year I got my call and the agent is all but begging me for the business citing very low interest rates, fast approval and flexible loan terms. I kept rejecting until I told him that I would be more than happy to take the loan if it is offered to me interest free, as that'll be the only condition which satisfies me... Of course the conversation soon ended. But my point is that every business wants our money and if we can just band our bellies and defer purchases, simple macro-economics will force prices to become more affordable to consumers.
Simply put, if consumers defer purchasing new vehicles, supply will exceed demand and once this happens, one option is that dealers can reduce prices to improve sales thereby benefitting the consumer.
Alas, this is not going to happen because there are always a handful of consumers who want and must have. This in itself a microcosm of our societal behaviour in that we simply cannot "unite" to improve a situation for all.
Capleton wrote:hover11 wrote:Well said ....a new vehicle is a liability and some of these prices making me think to buy land , how in God's green earth can a car be the same price as a lot of land and people are ok with that...covid really showed me the difference between wants and needs , a new vehicle is not a needcarluva wrote:hover11 wrote:No matter what the price ppl will continue buying , even at the cost of 7 year and 8 year loans to show others that they can "afford" it
So true.
And therein lies one of the reasons that car dealers have consumers in the vice grip. Everyone will rush to buy the vehicle and most of the buyers are the same ones who will either complain, or at least remark, on the high cost.
I really cannot understand how people are still buying vehicles so crazily when, in these COVID times when the country is under some measure of financial pressure, persons are losing jobs due to COVID or a shrinking energy industry and many more people are working from home. If anything, these two reasons alone should justify why one should hold on to one's vehicle (provided that one's vehicle is in a satisfactory state) and avoid purchasing a new one.
Even banks are desperate for your business (hence these long term vehicle loans). Funny story - every year around Xmas, a very profitable local bank calls its customers about a loan sale... Last year I got my call and the agent is all but begging me for the business citing very low interest rates, fast approval and flexible loan terms. I kept rejecting until I told him that I would be more than happy to take the loan if it is offered to me interest free, as that'll be the only condition which satisfies me... Of course the conversation soon ended. But my point is that every business wants our money and if we can just band our bellies and defer purchases, simple macro-economics will force prices to become more affordable to consumers.
Simply put, if consumers defer purchasing new vehicles, supply will exceed demand and once this happens, one option is that dealers can reduce prices to improve sales thereby benefitting the consumer.
Alas, this is not going to happen because there are always a handful of consumers who want and must have. This in itself a microcosm of our societal behaviour in that we simply cannot "unite" to improve a situation for all.
technically a vehicle is a depreciating asset
hover11 wrote:Well said ....a new vehicle is a liability and some of these prices making me think to buy land , how in God's green earth can a car be the same price as a lot of land and people are ok with that...covid really showed me the difference between wants and needs , a new vehicle is not a needcarluva wrote:hover11 wrote:No matter what the price ppl will continue buying , even at the cost of 7 year and 8 year loans to show others that they can "afford" it
So true.
And therein lies one of the reasons that car dealers have consumers in the vice grip. Everyone will rush to buy the vehicle and most of the buyers are the same ones who will either complain, or at least remark, on the high cost.
I really cannot understand how people are still buying vehicles so crazily when, in these COVID times when the country is under some measure of financial pressure, persons are losing jobs due to COVID or a shrinking energy industry and many more people are working from home. If anything, these two reasons alone should justify why one should hold on to one's vehicle (provided that one's vehicle is in a satisfactory state) and avoid purchasing a new one.
Even banks are desperate for your business (hence these long term vehicle loans). Funny story - every year around Xmas, a very profitable local bank calls its customers about a loan sale... Last year I got my call and the agent is all but begging me for the business citing very low interest rates, fast approval and flexible loan terms. I kept rejecting until I told him that I would be more than happy to take the loan if it is offered to me interest free, as that'll be the only condition which satisfies me... Of course the conversation soon ended. But my point is that every business wants our money and if we can just band our bellies and defer purchases, simple macro-economics will force prices to become more affordable to consumers.
Simply put, if consumers defer purchasing new vehicles, supply will exceed demand and once this happens, one option is that dealers can reduce prices to improve sales thereby benefitting the consumer.
Alas, this is not going to happen because there are always a handful of consumers who want and must have. This in itself a microcosm of our societal behaviour in that we simply cannot "unite" to improve a situation for all. 100%. I believe in people spending where they want, what they want, etc. but the fact that these dealers charging 10 or 20 thousand for the same engine (tech AND displacement), almost the same suspension, but a new front bumper and prettier deck and they're still being sold out says a lot
agent007 wrote:Maybe I'm biased but the most intelligent tuners discuss big man thing in this thread. Enjoying the discussion!
Concerning the Tucson, Feels, is it that the fully loaded uses a full digital instrument cluster screen?
Joshie23 wrote:On another note, while no business does things solely to the benefit of the customer without the bottom line in sight, the ad attached seems like a good deal once 1) there are no catches (and there usually are) and 2) the buyer lives in close proximity to a CNG Filling Station.
Quick maffs:
Shiv's Fielder gives him 600 km/48L of super.
He travels approximately 50 km between Chaguanas and PoS for work and leisure on weekends.
Distance travelled/month = 1,500 km.
Super Gasoline price/litre = $4.97
Monthly Fuel Bill = $596.40
Assumptions:
* 48L because the tank capacity is 50L, and he goes from neck of the tank down to fumes between refuels;
* 30 day month;
* He drives everyday. He might not, but he may also drive more than 50 km/day, so it'll balance off.
Shiv sells the Fielder for $50k.
The City CNG is ~$180k, w/an installment of $2,225 (4.37% interest rate) for 96 months @ 5% down. If he puts that $50k down, his installment drops to $1,607.
Shiv is diligent and remember, he lives a few minutes away from the CNG at Brentwood so he never really has to use gasoline. At $14 and ~200km between fill ups, Shiv will have to fill his CNG tank 7.5 times a month
Distance travelled/month = 1,500 km.
Monthly Fuel Bill = $105.00
Difference = $491.40
If he puts that difference towards his monthly installment, it drops to $1,115.60. If he diligently applies the savings, his loan term can drop to about 5 years, and that's not calculating the 2 years service fees and 3 years insurance fees he saves, that can be applied to the loan to break it down even faster, or throw the money that he would have spent in savings or a fund to gain interest in the mean time..no crims, or hard pong. Plus he's got a new car, and a Honda to boot, so he should be right as rain for a few years.
Assumptions:
* He's diligent to actually fill up the CNG every time;
* The CNG equipment is 100% functional and has 0% downtime;
* The package from the bank mentioned in the ad is applicable even if Shiv makes a bigger down payment.
Thoughts?
Edit: yes, I know CNG by itself is pretty archaic, especially when governments worldwide are banning ICEs outright in the next decade or so, but to be fair, not all policies rolled out internationally will be a copy+paste application here. Guess I'm looking at the glass half full and thinking about how we can optimize what we currently have..
kamakazi wrote:Like the thinking but let's throw another variable in there.
Let's say you just install a CNG kit into said fielder...
I believe EVs are not the future but a sideways step. I bring up the saying out of sight, out of mind. Just because EVs aren't polluting in your country/city doesn't mean that it isn't polluting. There is also the human rights issues with regard to cobalt mining currently. That is probably a discussion for another threadJoshie23 wrote:On another note, while no business does things solely to the benefit of the customer without the bottom line in sight, the ad attached seems like a good deal once 1) there are no catches (and there usually are) and 2) the buyer lives in close proximity to a CNG Filling Station.
Quick maffs:
Shiv's Fielder gives him 600 km/48L of super.
He travels approximately 50 km between Chaguanas and PoS for work and leisure on weekends.
Distance travelled/month = 1,500 km.
Super Gasoline price/litre = $4.97
Monthly Fuel Bill = $596.40
Assumptions:
* 48L because the tank capacity is 50L, and he goes from neck of the tank down to fumes between refuels;
* 30 day month;
* He drives everyday. He might not, but he may also drive more than 50 km/day, so it'll balance off.
Shiv sells the Fielder for $50k.
The City CNG is ~$180k, w/an installment of $2,225 (4.37% interest rate) for 96 months @ 5% down. If he puts that $50k down, his installment drops to $1,607.
Shiv is diligent and remember, he lives a few minutes away from the CNG at Brentwood so he never really has to use gasoline. At $14 and ~200km between fill ups, Shiv will have to fill his CNG tank 7.5 times a month
Distance travelled/month = 1,500 km.
Monthly Fuel Bill = $105.00
Difference = $491.40
If he puts that difference towards his monthly installment, it drops to $1,115.60. If he diligently applies the savings, his loan term can drop to about 5 years, and that's not calculating the 2 years service fees and 3 years insurance fees he saves, that can be applied to the loan to break it down even faster, or throw the money that he would have spent in savings or a fund to gain interest in the mean time..no crims, or hard pong. Plus he's got a new car, and a Honda to boot, so he should be right as rain for a few years.
Assumptions:
* He's diligent to actually fill up the CNG every time;
* The CNG equipment is 100% functional and has 0% downtime;
* The package from the bank mentioned in the ad is applicable even if Shiv makes a bigger down payment.
Thoughts?
Edit: yes, I know CNG by itself is pretty archaic, especially when governments worldwide are banning ICEs outright in the next decade or so, but to be fair, not all policies rolled out internationally will be a copy+paste application here. Guess I'm looking at the glass half full and thinking about how we can optimize what we currently have..
kamakazi wrote:Like the thinking but let's throw another variable in there.
Let's say you just install a CNG kit into said fielder...
I believe EVs are not the future but a sideways step. I bring up the saying out of sight, out of mind. Just because EVs aren't polluting in your country/city doesn't mean that it isn't polluting. There is also the human rights issues with regard to cobalt mining currently. That is probably a discussion for another thread
agent007 wrote:Maybe I'm biased but the most intelligent tuners discuss big man thing in this thread. Enjoying the discussion!
Joshie, I need to drink a lil coffee and I'll get back to you on that calculus you dish out there.
Concerning the Tucson, Feels, is it that the fully loaded uses a full digital instrument cluster screen?
drchaos wrote:I disagree ... its not a side step, its another step in the right direction.
Its facilitates the flexibility of the grid. Electricity can be generated from Renewables, nuclear (which is the future), Fossil fuels and bio fuels. Gas and diesel can only be made from fossil fuel, its static and a dead end.
The future of the system is a smart grid.
agent007 wrote:2021+ Tucson specs:
Smartstream 1598cc 1.6 T-GDI producing 2 outputs:
2WD - 154hp @ 5500rpm and 265Nm of torque @ 1500-4500rpm
HTRAC - 178hp @ 5500rpm and 265Nm of torque @ 1500-4500rpm
In contrast, the 2017-2020 specs were:
2WD/HTRAC - 175hp with same torque and rpm ranges as above, albeit from a 1591cc Gamma motor. The bore and stroke is also different thus confirming that the Gamma was an entirely different block.
For the Tucson fans out there, don’t be discouraged by the lower output in 2WD trim. Hyundai claims that the 0-100kmph time improved by 0.1s on both FWD and HTRAC models.
Transmission remains the Transys 7 speed dry DCT.
4 words:
Best of luck people.
triniboi49 wrote:why the fear of the DCT? The salesperson claimed that CC is Adaptive - can anyone confirm? The Tuscon looked good - pictures did not do it justice.
I looked at the CX30 at SS while there the core plus is 308 but it is small. The CX5 is 360 now not sure which trim.agent007 wrote:2021+ Tucson specs:
Smartstream 1598cc 1.6 T-GDI producing 2 outputs:
2WD - 154hp @ 5500rpm and 265Nm of torque @ 1500-4500rpm
HTRAC - 178hp @ 5500rpm and 265Nm of torque @ 1500-4500rpm
In contrast, the 2017-2020 specs were:
2WD/HTRAC - 175hp with same torque and rpm ranges as above, albeit from a 1591cc Gamma motor. The bore and stroke is also different thus confirming that the Gamma was an entirely different block.
For the Tucson fans out there, don’t be discouraged by the lower output in 2WD trim. Hyundai claims that the 0-100kmph time improved by 0.1s on both FWD and HTRAC models.
Transmission remains the Transys 7 speed dry DCT.
4 words:
Best of luck people.
drchaos wrote:I disagree ... its not a side step, its another step in the right direction.
Its facilitates the flexibility of the grid. Electricity can be generated from Renewables, nuclear (which is the future), Fossil fuels and bio fuels. Gas and diesel can only be made from fossil fuel, its static and a dead end.
The future of the system is a smart grid.
hover11 wrote:Ok let's be technical....if you take out that brand new kia on 7 years loan it is calculated as a liability....no average joe buys a brand new car cash for it to be wholly owned and considered a depreciating assetCapleton wrote:hover11 wrote:Well said ....a new vehicle is a liability and some of these prices making me think to buy land , how in God's green earth can a car be the same price as a lot of land and people are ok with that...covid really showed me the difference between wants and needs , a new vehicle is not a needcarluva wrote:hover11 wrote:No matter what the price ppl will continue buying , even at the cost of 7 year and 8 year loans to show others that they can "afford" it
So true.
And therein lies one of the reasons that car dealers have consumers in the vice grip. Everyone will rush to buy the vehicle and most of the buyers are the same ones who will either complain, or at least remark, on the high cost.
I really cannot understand how people are still buying vehicles so crazily when, in these COVID times when the country is under some measure of financial pressure, persons are losing jobs due to COVID or a shrinking energy industry and many more people are working from home. If anything, these two reasons alone should justify why one should hold on to one's vehicle (provided that one's vehicle is in a satisfactory state) and avoid purchasing a new one.
Even banks are desperate for your business (hence these long term vehicle loans). Funny story - every year around Xmas, a very profitable local bank calls its customers about a loan sale... Last year I got my call and the agent is all but begging me for the business citing very low interest rates, fast approval and flexible loan terms. I kept rejecting until I told him that I would be more than happy to take the loan if it is offered to me interest free, as that'll be the only condition which satisfies me... Of course the conversation soon ended. But my point is that every business wants our money and if we can just band our bellies and defer purchases, simple macro-economics will force prices to become more affordable to consumers.
Simply put, if consumers defer purchasing new vehicles, supply will exceed demand and once this happens, one option is that dealers can reduce prices to improve sales thereby benefitting the consumer.
Alas, this is not going to happen because there are always a handful of consumers who want and must have. This in itself a microcosm of our societal behaviour in that we simply cannot "unite" to improve a situation for all.
technically a vehicle is a depreciating asset
carluva wrote:
carluva wrote:Joshie23,
I can already see some flaws in your calculation.
Years ago when I was in the market for a new vehicle, I contacted Classic Motors to get cost and finance options for the Civic. The offer at that time was 30% down for a term of 5 years with the In-one package of service and insurance. I cannot recall the interest rate.
I was selling my ride to get a new one so the proceeds from the vehicle sale were greater than the 30% deposit. I asked the sales agent if I could pay more that the 30% deposit and still benefit from the In-one package. The feedback was 'No'. If I was paying more than 30%, the offer does not stand and I'll have to go through regular financing at the market interest rates at that time, plus see about my own insurance and servicing.
So, in your example, I would say that it is likely not possible to benefit from the service, insurance and interest rates if a potential buyer was hoping to pay more than the $9,000 deposit. In other words, any deviation from the terms of the advertised deal would prevent a potential buyer from benefitting from the offer. A $50,000 deposit on this vehicle would likely be treated as a regular financing at the market interest rates which would be more than what is the calculated rate from the deal.
Gotchya, that's why I put under 'Assumptions' that the calcs are predicated on the package being available with a larger down payment. I guess it's not, so thanks for clearing that up.
Secondly, I am not following your Maths nor would the Maths be suitable for the dealer. Here's why:
Initial Deposit - $50,000
Installment - $1,607.
Term - 96 months.
Effective cost of vehicle - $50,000 + (96 x $1,607) = $204,272.
That is almost $20,000 less than the effective cost under the advertised terms. Do you really think a dealer would reduce his profit margin (not profit, but profit margin as one could argue that the dealer will still make a profit) to the benefit of the buyer? Unlikeley!
A benefit of a larger DP is borrowing less from the FI, which in turn means less interest paid to the FI. Again, this is based on the package even allowing for such large down payment, but I get your point.
Using the other numbers:
Initial Deposit - $50,000
Installment - $1,115.60.
Term - 60 months.
Effective cost of vehicle - $50,000 + (60 x $1,115.30) = $116,936.
That is way less than the cost of the vehicle... Not happening in this lifetime or another.
Actually, the $1,115.60 figure is not the real installment. I should have put a disclaimer but that figure is effectively what Shiv would have to add to the savings he's earning from using CNG only. So (in the absence of a standing order) instead of withdrawing $1,607, he withdraws $1,115.60 and adds the $491.40 he saved on gasoline to give the total of $1,607, hence the termIf he puts that difference towards his monthly installment, it drops to $1,115.60.
Now using the advertised numbers:
Initial Deposit - $9,000
Installment - $2,225.
Term - 96 months.
Effective cost of vehicle - $9,000 + (96 x $2,225) = $222,600.
Interest on the vehicle = $222,600 - $180,000 = $42,600
The financing will be based on an interest of $42,600 being returned to the dealer. Your installments are calculated to generate $42,600 for the dealer. If one wishes to pay more than the $2,225 monthly installment, one can usually do so. However, on is still paying back the $42,600 only in a faster time than 96 months. So, for arguments sake, you could pay 2X the monthly rate, i.e. $4,450, over half the time, i.e. 48 months, but the dealer still gets his $42,600.
Well, it would depend on if the interest is calculated based on the reducing balance. We agree that the only way to really pay less in interest with this specific package is to make a larger down payment, which as you clarified, isn't allowed.
That is how it works in other financing institutions as well...
To compare apples with apples, you will have to know the financing terms for a larger deposit and then factor in the cost of insurance and servicing. Then, that cost would have to be compared to the current promotion.
Correct, and well I guess once you deviate from the T&Cs of the package it's no longer as beneficial to the customer, hence my initial disclaimer...while no business does things solely to the benefit of the customer without the bottom line in sight, the ad attached seems like a good deal once 1) there are no catches (and there usually are)...
carluva wrote:Joshie23,
I can already see some flaws in your calculation.
Years ago when I was in the market for a new vehicle, I contacted Classic Motors to get cost and finance options for the Civic. The offer at that time was 30% down for a term of 5 years with the In-one package of service and insurance. I cannot recall the interest rate.
I was selling my ride to get a new one so the proceeds from the vehicle sale were greater than the 30% deposit. I asked the sales agent if I could pay more that the 30% deposit and still benefit from the In-one package. The feedback was 'No'. If I was paying more than 30%, the offer does not stand and I'll have to go through regular financing at the market interest rates at that time, plus see about my own insurance and servicing.
So, in your example, I would say that it is likely not possible to benefit from the service, insurance and interest rates if a potential buyer was hoping to pay more than the $9,000 deposit. In other words, any deviation from the terms of the advertised deal would prevent a potential buyer from benefitting from the offer. A $50,000 deposit on this vehicle would likely be treated as a regular financing at the market interest rates which would be more than what is the calculated rate from the deal.
Secondly, I am not following your Maths nor would the Maths be suitable for the dealer. Here's why:
Initial Deposit - $50,000
Installment - $1,607.
Term - 96 months.
Effective cost of vehicle - $50,000 + (96 x $1,607) = $204,272.
That is almost $20,000 less than the effective cost under the advertised terms. Do you really think a dealer would reduce his profit margin (not profit, but profit margin as one could argue that the dealer will still make a profit) to the benefit of the buyer? Unlikeley!
Using the other numbers:
Initial Deposit - $50,000
Installment - $1,115.60.
Term - 60 months.
Effective cost of vehicle - $50,000 + (60 x $1,115.30) = $116,936.
That is way less than the cost of the vehicle... Not happening in this lifetime or another.
Now using the advertised numbers:
Initial Deposit - $9,000
Installment - $2,225.
Term - 96 months.
Effective cost of vehicle - $9,000 + (96 x $2,225) = $222,600.
Interest on the vehicle = $222,600 - $180,000 = $42,600
The financing will be based on an interest of $42,600 being returned to the dealer. Your installments are calculated to generate $42,600 for the dealer. If one wishes to pay more than the $2,225 monthly installment, one can usually do so. However, on is still paying back the $42,600 only in a faster time than 96 months. So, for arguments sake, you could pay 2X the monthly rate, i.e. $4,450, over half the time, i.e. 48 months, but the dealer still gets his $42,600.
That is how it works in other financing institutions as well...
To compare apples with apples, you will have to know the financing terms for a larger deposit and then factor in the cost of insurance and servicing. Then, that cost would have to be compared to the current promotion.
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