Old School Projects

[king bob]

lol, remember the bob is new on d whole car scene eh,

[king bob]

this may sound odd, bt cam as in cam shaft?

bob behave ....

ROTFLOL
AH SWEAR NIGIE U MAD E MI NITE WID DAT COMMENT

[droppa]

yup, here it is.
car looks solid from what i saw and is still there up to today.
house is right opp. the school there (not sure of the school name)

the school is Warrenville Presbyterian, i swear that car there since i left that primary school, same spot, does be on blocks sometime....

btw, where do u guys get insurance for 2 series cars????

[NOMOSS]

Yes Yes....im looking spike...

Nigie are you still looking for a pinto 2.o cam ..

Heard of a 322 crane for small $$

SILENCE!! I KEELL YOU!!!

Yuh eh even wait tuh hear what condition it in... NOMOSS, yuh eh easy, nah...

Kingbob, in the small collection of cams, there is a mild road cam... hold onto it for you?

that crane 322 i looked it up, crane cams described it as all out competition ,13:1 compression recommended 4200 rpm up powerband a little beyond our requirements , in fact it has almost 14.5mm lift that means it falls way into the path of the pistons so much so that the pistons have to be notched to accommodate them.The others were not offered I believe we may have use for them even the mild one

[NOMOSS]

this may sound odd, bt cam as in cam shaft?

Camshaft manufacturers have different codes that they assign to camshafts depending on the engine and the application that they are for.The Europeans usually categorize them into mild road ,fast road ,road/rally, rally ,race and there are quite a few manufacturers like burton,kent,piper,newman,camtech,crane, iskendarian to name the popular ones.Each company has a different set of letters and numbers that they assign to their cams because there are so many and there is so much information about the camshaft that a engine builder would need you get a "camsheet" with the information that can be accessed from the code.

[d spike]

this may sound odd, bt cam as in cam shaft?

Camshaft manufacturers have different codes that they assign to camshafts depending on the engine and the application that they are for.The Europeans usually categorize them into mild road ,fast road ,road/rally, rally ,race and there are quite a few manufacturers like burton,kent,piper,newman,camtech,crane, iskendarian to name the popular ones.Each company has a different set of letters and numbers that they assign to their cams because there are so many and there is so much information about the camshaft that a engine builder would need you get a "camsheet" with the information that can be accessed from the code.

What about getting a cam "cut" by Zigs? (I believe they still do this) Aren't there others who do this?

[NOMOSS]

this may sound odd, bt cam as in cam shaft?

Camshaft manufacturers have different codes that they assign to camshafts depending on the engine and the application that they are for.The Europeans usually categorize them into mild road ,fast road ,road/rally, rally ,race and there are quite a few manufacturers like burton,kent,piper,newman,camtech,crane, iskendarian to name the popular ones.Each company has a different set of letters and numbers that they assign to their cams because there are so many and there is so much information about the camshaft that a engine builder would need you get a "camsheet" with the information that can be accessed from the code.

What about getting a cam "cut" by Zigs? (I believe they still do this) Aren't there others who do this?

I have only ever heard of zigs doing that kind of work and i have heard both good things as well as bad about their regrinds .My take is if the cams performed well for some people then why shouldn't it perform for me.I will try it if it comes to that but their cuts are limited to using the standard cam as a blank but i head their piper grinds are great

[Sanctifier]

What about getting a cam "cut" by Zigs? (I believe they still do this) Aren't there others who do this?

Unless local machine shops really got their acts together these days, that may not be such a good idea.

Without some method of heat-treating, case hardening or surface treatment to reduce wear, (Parkerising, soft-nitride treatment, etc.) the lobes will soon be destroyed by the tappets/cam followers... with all that swarf circulating through every bearing surface/journal of your engine.

IMHO it's more cost-effective... and MUCH less risky to buy a "name brand" cam tailored to suit your application.
Beats a "tear-down & rebuild" any day... btw ALWAYS buy NEW tappets/cam-followers with a new cam.
The 2nd. best way to prematurely "kill" a new cam is to re-use the old tappets... (AND buy the Assembly Lube recommended by the cam manufacturer as well.)

My $0.02¢

[NOMOSS]

What about getting a cam "cut" by Zigs? (I believe they still do this) Aren't there others who do this?

Unless local machine shops really got their acts together these days, that may not be such a good idea.

Without some method of heat-treating, case hardening or surface treatment to reduce wear, (Parkerising, soft-nitride treatment, etc.) the lobes will soon be destroyed by the tappets/cam followers... with all that swarf circulating through every bearing surface/journal of your engine.

IMHO it's more cost-effective... and MUCH less risky to buy a "name brand" cam tailored to suit your application.
Beats a "tear-down & rebuild" any day... btw ALWAYS buy NEW tappets/cam-followers with a new cam.
The 2nd. best way to prematurely "kill" a new cam is to re-use the old tappets... (AND buy the Assembly Lube recommended by the cam manufacturer as well.)


The lobe surfaces are hardened deep enough to survive regrinding without the need for rehardening .Modern grinds tend produce more power and use less fuel than those older ones and I prefer to save and purchase a new and complete kit.Unfortunately not everyone has the money to go that way



My $0.02¢

[Sanctifier]

^ ^ ^ Hardened layer may not be deep enough even for many modern cam profiles...

There is no technical limit to the depth of hardening with carburizing techniques, but it is not common to carburize to depths in excess of 0.050 in.

Link--> Case Hardening Methods.

Since cams are rarely reground locally, I would be reluctant to bet my scarce $$$ or even worse, long-term engine life on a local experiment.

My $0.02¢

[d spike]

All said, it sounds like a factory-cut cam is the safer way to go.

[NOMOSS]

All said, it sounds like a factory-cut cam is the safer way to go.

Guys had little choice in the matter in the late seventies early eighties ,They used them and they ran well .Not much is removed in these regrinds about as much as when regrinding a crank.You don't re-harden a ground crank do you ,Re-profiling is in the order of thousandths of an inch ,when you're done you still in the hardened zone.Zigs regrinds were that way by design.And besides the cost of re-profiling was around $300 .

[king bob]

well in that case yh, you can keep them 4 me

[MG Man]

All said, it sounds like a factory-cut cam is the safer way to go.

Guys had little choice in the matter in the late seventies early eighties ,They used them and they ran well .Not much is removed in these regrinds about as much as when regrinding a crank.You don't re-harden a ground crank do you ,Re-profiling is in the order of thousandths of an inch ,when you're done you still in the hardened zone.Zigs regrinds were that way by design.And besides the cost of re-profiling was around $300 .

without a dyno, all of that was idle speculation
I not knocking the older heads, but I have heard so much kaka from so many 'ole skool escort man' that I don't hvae much faith on most of them
Unkle Sanctifier is (IMHO) one of the more experienced / well read guys out there, and his statements are rooted in verifiable fact rather than seat o'the pants feelings..........if reporfiling cams was so easy, Crane, Kent and Isky would be outta business by now

[d spike]

All said, it sounds like a factory-cut cam is the safer way to go.

Guys had little choice in the matter in the late seventies early eighties ,They used them and they ran well .Not much is removed in these regrinds about as much as when regrinding a crank.You don't re-harden a ground crank do you ,Re-profiling is in the order of thousandths of an inch ,when you're done you still in the hardened zone.Zigs regrinds were that way by design.And besides the cost of re-profiling was around $300 .

without a dyno, all of that was idle speculation
I not knocking the older heads, but I have heard so much kaka from so many 'ole skool escort man' that I don't hvae much faith on most of them
Unkle Sanctifier is (IMHO) one of the more experienced / well read guys out there, and his statements are rooted in verifiable fact rather than seat o'the pants feelings..........if reporfiling cams was so easy, Crane, Kent and Isky would be outta business by now

Well, I guess the major factor for it being done was:

Guys had little choice in the matter in the late seventies early eighties.

Luckily, options are more easily available nowadays.

...if reporfiling cams was so easy, Crane, Kent and Isky would be outta business by now

I don't think NOMOSS meant that it was easy (more efficient) as much as it was 'good enough' back then.
Wouldn't re-profiling a cam be limited by the height of the donor cam? you could only cut... you couldn't "add" height to the cam more than what was already there.

[nigie]

of the 3 people i know who had zigs cut...none of them were satisfied.....acording 2 them they wernt "running well" as compared 2 what they moved on 2....

[NOMOSS]

All said, it sounds like a factory-cut cam is the safer way to go.

Guys had little choice in the matter in the late seventies early eighties ,They used them and they ran well .Not much is removed in these regrinds about as much as when regrinding a crank.You don't re-harden a ground crank do you ,Re-profiling is in the order of thousandths of an inch ,when you're done you still in the hardened zone.Zigs regrinds were that way by design.And besides the cost of re-profiling was around $300 .

without a dyno, all of that was idle speculation
I not knocking the older heads, but I have heard so much kaka from so many 'ole skool escort man' that I don't hvae much faith on most of them
Unkle Sanctifier is (IMHO) one of the more experienced / well read guys out there, and his statements are rooted in verifiable fact rather than seat o'the pants feelings..........if reporfiling cams was so easy, Crane, Kent and Isky would be outta business by now

Well, I guess the major factor for it being done was:

Guys had little choice in the matter in the late seventies early eighties.

Luckily, options are more easily available nowadays.

...if reporfiling cams was so easy, Crane, Kent and Isky would be outta business by now

I don't think NOMOSS meant that it was easy (more efficient) as much as it was 'good enough' back then.
Wouldn't re-profiling a cam be limited by the height of the donor cam? you could only cut... you couldn't "add" height to the cam more than what was already there.

Crane and isky started out re profiling cams back in their day.demand grew and so did the tech.The options then were one quarter half ,three quarter and full race,Im not saying that they were better just that they worked ..Head technology was backward as well and the combos worked.(crane did go under for your information but for other reasons but they were rescued recently ) .Some of Burton's cams are re-profiled I have one .It was made from a ford factory blank.The major prohibitive factor in regrinding a cam is the machinery.We are dealing first of all with a prohibitively expensive machine,the operating and maintaining of which is expensive,and who do you trust ?Ill go with crane ,Isky , competition cams kent or burton in a blink of an eye,They are race proven and relatively cheap.Some guys prefer custom ground cams from "unknown" companies ,but that costs alot and you better know your specs that you are giving them.Zigs cams are not done willy nilly the are preprogrammed grinds from ford
and piper they dont just put your cam on the machine and and grind away.You should visit them ,Take a tour ,speak to the cam machinist and see the cam regrinder in action.I asked about rehardening the lobe surfaces when I visited them many moons ago and got all my questions answered.Their grinds are limited though two to three profiles .As for the reputation of the cams ask zigs for the grind numbers and go look it up on the net.They dont use their own profiles .They copy profiles from established companies and they paid good money to get those profiles programmed into their machines.You even get a camshaft specification sheet with your reprofiled cam which most old school guys used to discard because they did not know what the info on the sheet meant,some did not have even verniers.Dont knock our local machine shops and our machinists ,we have some world class guys here.

[NOMOSS]

^ ^ ^ Hardened layer may not be deep enough even for many modern cam profiles...

There is no technical limit to the depth of hardening with carburizing techniques, but it is not common to carburize to depths in excess of 0.050 in.

Link--> Case Hardening Methods.

Since cams are rarely reground locally, I would be reluctant to bet my scarce $$$ or even worse, long-term engine life on a local experiment.

My $0.02¢

For your information old school (pre emission days)camshaft blanks ware carburized first ,THEN the lobes were ground and the entire shaft was hardened not lust the lobes like modern camshafts.Sounds stupid but that was how it was done back then.Modern induction hardening is quicker more controlled and less costly so now just the area to be hardened can be targeted.Plus accountants did not interfere in the engineering process back then as much as is done now so the cams took more licks back then,They broke the chain or busted a belt before they broke ,modern cams dont do that

[roadracer7]

tired hearing about zigs cut cams. no good,waste of time,best you take your money light the stove and burn it. if i had a hundred dollars for every zigs cut cam whoe story i'd have a healty bank balance.

[d spike]

tired hearing about zigs cut cams. no good,waste of time,best you take your money light the stove and burn it. if i had a hundred dollars for every zigs cut cam whoe story i'd have a healty bank balance.

Did you ever run/own one?
Bear in mind that a modified cam often required a timing/tuning that differed from standard... a cam that helped your engine breathe better would require a head that is also modded (my apologies to the young 'uns, I meant modified) to breathe/flow better.
If you just stuck in a modded cam, expecting it to work its magic, then you would be disappointed. Far to many people buy medicine and refuse to read the label... den dey does vex wid de medicine, cause it eh wukkin'...

[NOMOSS]

tired hearing about zigs cut cams. no good,waste of time,best you take your money light the stove and burn it. if i had a hundred dollars for every zigs cut cam whoe story i'd have a healty bank balance.

Did you ever run/own one?
Bear in mind that a modified cam often required a timing/tuning that differed from standard... a cam that helped your engine breathe better would require a head that is also modded (my apologies to the young 'uns, I meant modified) to breathe/flow better.
If you just stuck in a modded cam, expecting it to work its magic, then you would be disappointed. Far to many people buy medicine and refuse to read the label... den dey does vex wid de medicine, cause it eh wukkin'...

If it weren't for cheapo accountants in the car manufacturing industry my life would be very boring

[Sanctifier]

^ ^ ^ NOMOSS I really don't want to prolong the debate but... while much of what you said may sound reasonable, I too am from the ol' school.

Past experience with some local machine shops (to remain "unnamed") has left me not just skeptical... but often completely "anti-local" when it comes to the lack of expertise and sometimes downright butchery exhibited by so many of them.

Unfortunately, I have frequently found "too much mouth" backed by "too little experience" in so many cases...
Cylinder head "experts" who grind off the valve guide boss, so NONE of the valves seat AT ALL!...

Boring a block to fit "straight" sleeves (no top lip) without machining a lower seat (lip) at the bottom of the bore... AND "miking" the sleeves "hot" before machining, instead of chilling them in dry ice (or similar) first... so, with an inaccurate tolerance fit, the sleeves drop when the engine is being broken-in and destroy the block/crank & pistons and on...and on!

Have you checked how old Zig's cam grinder is? IIRC they had one over thirty-five years ago. Is it the same one?

Anyhow, long story short... I'll take my chances on local machine shops for things that they do FREQUENTLY... but
"for everything else" (align-honing main bearing journals... reprofiled cams... etc.) "there's MasterCard."
But that's just me... Everyone is entitled to their own opinion... and the choice of how they spend their own $$$.

My $0.02¢

[king bob]

peeps d bob in a bind, ,meh main car gave out
anyone have any ideas where i can find a magnum engine 4 a 626?

[NOMOSS]

^ ^ ^ NOMOSS I really don't want to prolong the debate but... while much of what you said may sound reasonable, I too am from the ol' school.

Past experience with some local machine shops (to remain "unnamed") has left me not just skeptical... but often completely "anti-local" when it comes to the lack of expertise and sometimes downright butchery exhibited by so many of them.

Unfortunately, I have frequently found "too much mouth" backed by "too little experience" in so many cases...
Cylinder head "experts" who grind off the valve guide boss, so NONE of the valves seat AT ALL!...

Boring a block to fit "straight" sleeves (no top lip) without machining a lower seat (lip) at the bottom of the bore... AND "miking" the sleeves "hot" before machining, instead of chilling them in dry ice (or similar) first... so, with an inaccurate tolerance fit, the sleeves drop when the engine is being broken-in and destroy the block/crank & pistons and on...and on!

Have you checked how old Zig's cam grinder is? IIRC they had one over thirty-five years ago. Is it the same one?

Anyhow, long story short... I'll take my chances on local machine shops for things that they do FREQUENTLY... but
"for everything else" (align-honing main bearing journals... reprofiled cams... etc.) "there's MasterCard."
But that's just me... Everyone is entitled to their own opinion... and the choice of how they spend their own $$$.

My $0.02¢

I too have been burned by "mouthers" and i will like to put their 'company" names up but I digress ,There are a small few that know what there doing ,even for a simple crank regrind,(some get that wrong as well) ,my fear is what i am going to do when these guys retire (these fellas old as well),because we have way too many wanna be machinists in our midst.I have observed many times a lot of these guys are trained in house on how to use the machines but they are not qualified machinists.as I said I have a few I trust even for simple things.Of course the good guys know who they are and their capabilities and they expensive like hell , but I agree, for everything else there's mastercard

[NOMOSS]

peeps d bob in a bind, ,meh main car gave out
anyone have any ideas where i can find a magnum engine 4 a 626?

I havent seen one of those on the floor in years
man forgive me, but I think if all else fails fit a nissan in

[MG Man]

I would love to see a dyno comparison of a before and after wrt a zigs cut cam.......
at the end of the day, the dyno doesn't lie.........but seat-of-pants does

[NOMOSS]

I would love to see a dyno comparison of a before and after wrt a zigs cut cam.......
at the end of the day, the dyno doesn't lie.........but seat-of-pants does

Those old grinds (a la zigs)cant compare with modern ones,they tended to be long duration and less lift ,not good for emissions and not to great for producing power but easy to tune and very tolerant to bad timing and mango tree tuning.

[king bob]

d ting is if i drop a nissan in i'll hav e 2 prolong the hunter for a couple months

[NOMOSS]

d ting is if i drop a nissan in i'll hav e 2 prolong the hunter for a couple months

do you know what wrong with the engine?

[king bob]

a lot or things that are a pound and a crown to repair, costs cheaper 2 buy a nex 1