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Need some advice...detonation...

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1.6 TURBO
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Need some advice...detonation...

Postby 1.6 TURBO » October 19th, 2006, 12:15 pm

Need some advice...I bought a Mitsubishi Lancer Wagon GDI turbo....Rallyart version....only problem is i hear some "pinging"...detonation....now i know it is because of the pump gas we have here...what can I do to solve this problen other than buying octain boost for every gas fill up...i mean could i buy some sort of aftermarket electronic gadget to solve this problem...like to retard the ignition or to add more fuel or something...HELP...

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Postby Zh@ne » October 19th, 2006, 12:34 pm

buy a gallon of c16 fuel and put that in when yuh fulling yuh tank.. :twisted:

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Postby cdx2k1 » October 19th, 2006, 2:19 pm

Are you sure it's actually detonation?Have you tried the booster or C16 and experienced any change in noise?

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Postby 1.6 TURBO » October 19th, 2006, 5:17 pm

Hey guys this is an every-day driver used by my wife...i need a better solution on this matter....does anyone know if an APEXi SAFC would solve this issue...maybe ah bigger intercooler since the stock one is small and tucked behind one corner of the bumper...

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Postby 10-01 » October 19th, 2006, 6:26 pm

1.6 TURBO wrote:Hey guys this is an every-day driver used by my wife...i need a better solution on this matter....does anyone know if an APEXi SAFC would solve this issue...maybe ah bigger intercooler since the stock one is small and tucked behind one corner of the bumper...


Doubt a bigger cooler would help that problem :x

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Postby DrunkenMaster16 » October 19th, 2006, 6:37 pm

yeah you need to get tuned, a bigger ic / fmic helps with cooling, and more intercooler piping = slower boost response

Are you on running premium gas bychance?

get colder spark plugs maybe?

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Postby Alpha_2nr » October 19th, 2006, 11:13 pm

Try a water injection kit. Or get your ECU reflashed.

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Re: Need some advice...detonation...

Postby thegtiman » October 20th, 2006, 6:40 am

1.6 TURBO wrote:Need some advice...I bought a Mitsubishi Lancer Wagon GDI turbo....Rallyart version....only problem is i hear some "pinging"...detonation....now i know it is because of the pump gas we have here...what can I do to solve this problen other than buying octain boost for every gas fill up...i mean could i buy some sort of aftermarket electronic gadget to solve this problem...like to retard the ignition or to add more fuel or something...HELP...


That car, assuming its a JDM model and all other things are well, will be mapped for JDM 100ron fuel which will allow for a higher det threshold and possibly more spark advance than if it was to run on 95 or 92ron. Running it on trini premium 95ron will lower the det threshold and you may experience light to moderate Det depending on load and engine speed. Correction is to get access to ecu spark maps take data logs and reduce spark where det occurs. You can also increase the AFRs around the det sites but you may find that your fuel economy will suffer.

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1.6 TURBO
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Postby 1.6 TURBO » October 20th, 2006, 8:16 am

Thanks for the info people....hey "thegtiman" you seem to know alot about this stuff...now the question is where can i get my ecu reflashed?

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Postby Bezman » October 20th, 2006, 9:58 am

i have read articles on those GDI engines and mitsubishis in particular a little bit, my friend has one fo those RalliArt GDi turbo wagons... GDI engines are different by injecting fuel directly into teh cylinder instead of in the intake manifold, allot more fuel efficient and less wasted fuel, but it also allows for more precise fuel control and much leaner conditions than in conventional engines.. sometimes AFR can reach as lean as 50+:1 cause it can add fuel anywyhere in the cycle to change AFR and avoid detonation and not wait for a valve to open or throttle to be open. remember it injects teh fuel direct into the cylinder.


that ECU doesnt respond well to S'AFC's etc.. its adaptive nature allows it to go into different parts of the fuel map once you have added fuel (signal) on the safc, hence taking it back to what it thinks is optimum driving conditions (A/F) or safe mode..

that ECU is all over the maps when driving, try checking teh 02 sensor and cleaning teh MAF, I would also run NOS street octane boost, its been proven to work well and its only about 1/2 a can of it to a full tank... i would run that in any JDM turbo vehicle unless i got a reflash or the OEM ECU responds well to piggy backs etc..

so my suggestion in check 02 sensor, MAF, Plugs and add octane boost.

you can also reset the ECU, that will make it learn the AFR and driving conditions that are poresent NOW, so disconnect the negative battery terminal (or if it says something different in the factory service manul) and leave it for 1/2 hour, then reconnect, it should idle funny or fast for a little whiel as it relearns somethings, drive it normally, and see what it does.. it may relearn the gas octane and drive the car on a different MAP from the ecu, or it may do the same crap

another good solution is take to someone with a OBD2 sensor and pull the codes from teh ECU, if it has been detonating it may be allot more that we covered here, temp sensors, det sensor, o2 sensor etc etc..

good luck ;)

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Postby W2J » October 20th, 2006, 11:00 am

WATER INJECTION

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Postby Aaron 2NR » October 20th, 2006, 12:03 pm

W2J wrote:WATER INJECTION


ditto


u sure its pingin cuz i had a cedia lancer before and it use to sound that but it wasnt....

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Postby thegtiman » October 20th, 2006, 5:16 pm

1.6 TURBO wrote:Thanks for the info people....hey "thegtiman" you seem to know alot about this stuff...now the question is where can i get my ecu reflashed?

This is a late 4G93T. Correct?
Unless that engine was offered in other markets to run on different grades of fuel looks like you are down to keeping it topped up with octane boost. Do not know if someone back home has the gear and knows what calibration maps to access.
I know first hand that OEMs spend millions setting up and testing engines to work in dfferent climates. So if this is a JDM only car then Mitsubishi would have not have cal'd that engine to work on crap fuel (trini). Hence the spark maps would be well optimised (within MBT, minimum best timing and/or det limit) for better fuel. On the fuel side they would have mapped that motor on the principle lean best torque (LBT) for all three modes of operation. Then one should also consider that your base maps are one thing but the output that comes to the coil pack/injector is based on multiple optimisers working on the base map. Each manufacturer has a stratigy to implement this. Even though the knock sensor will pull spark out under certain contions this is calibrated to work at certain frequencies (knock window). If you fuel quality is poor your det threshold will be lowered well before MBT in some cases and you will knock even if the max spark is being pulled by the KNK sensor. In the service side if your air mass meter is dirty this could trigger a "Bank 1 lean " fault and can cause this problem. Anyway I said enough. Hope you get it sorted.

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Postby W2J » October 20th, 2006, 8:55 pm

thegtiman wrote:
1.6 TURBO wrote:Thanks for the info people....hey "thegtiman" you seem to know alot about this stuff...now the question is where can i get my ecu reflashed?

This is a late 4G93T. Correct?
Unless that engine was offered in other markets to run on different grades of fuel looks like you are down to keeping it topped up with octane boost. Do not know if someone back home has the gear and knows what calibration maps to access.
I know first hand that OEMs spend millions setting up and testing engines to work in dfferent climates. So if this is a JDM only car then Mitsubishi would have not have cal'd that engine to work on crap fuel (trini). Hence the spark maps would be well optimised (within MBT, minimum best timing and/or det limit) for better fuel. On the fuel side they would have mapped that motor on the principle lean best torque (LBT) for all three modes of operation. Then one should also consider that your base maps are one thing but the output that comes to the coil pack/injector is based on multiple optimisers working on the base map. Each manufacturer has a stratigy to implement this. Even though the knock sensor will pull spark out under certain contions this is calibrated to work at certain frequencies (knock window). If you fuel quality is poor your det threshold will be lowered well before MBT in some cases and you will knock even if the max spark is being pulled by the KNK sensor. In the service side if your air mass meter is dirty this could trigger a "Bank 1 lean " fault and can cause this problem. Anyway I said enough. Hope you get it sorted.


First off no 4G93 ecu's are flashable. Second GDI engines are Lean burn engines so the mapping will be very close to 12:5.1 AFR. The cheapest and saftest options I seeing for you is either Greddy Ultimate or Water Injection.

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Postby cacasplat3 » October 21st, 2006, 12:25 am

since blow by reduces octane levels, would an oil catch can help?
its cheap, and it MAY work :!:

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Postby thegtiman » October 21st, 2006, 4:39 am

[quote="W2J]

First off no 4G93 ecu's are flashable. Second GDI engines are Lean burn engines so the mapping will be very close to 12:5.1 AFR. The cheapest and saftest options I seeing for you is either Greddy Ultimate or Water Injection.[/quote]

I suggested to gain access to the ecu as a general principle. I am not a Mitsubhshi guru and have not seen the ecu structure for this vehicle. How does mapping be very close to 12.5 AFR on a lean burn forced indution engine? Where does this appear in the fuel maps i.e speed and load sites? What model did you use to determine that 12.5AFR would result in LBT? I would have thought this engine in "ultra lean mode", one of three modes, would run on homogenious mixtures of 18AFRs. And why trouble fuel curves when your problem maybe the spark calibration for a different country/climate/fuel grade? I asked those questions as a Power and Emissions Engineer.
I cant see how you would configure a stand alone/piggyback to run on a direct injection petrol motor that you dont even have any live data for.

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Postby 15devils » October 21st, 2006, 9:40 pm

awright ..so i reading the thread above..now the thing is a have one comin in(cedia wagon turbo),and really and truly i dunno much bought it,except some people saying that the gdi turbo engine is stress,from the info above,would you guys say that it would be a bad buy or how you maintain it ? mine would be a daily driver as well so any advice would be great.

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Postby Alpha_2nr » October 22nd, 2006, 5:47 am

since blow by reduces octane levels, would an oil catch can help?
its cheap, and it MAY work


This is assuming that he has significant blow by in his engine.

If the car is fairly new, then his Oil catch can may be fairly dry, and there shouldn't be significant vapours going back to the engine. As such, this will not significantly drop the octane.

Remember folks, an Octane no. is a fuel's RESISTANCE to combustion. As such, Gerrard's suggestion of Water Injection may be pretty good bet, especially if the ECU cannot be flashed (which is kinda strange I guess).

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Postby 1.6 TURBO » October 25th, 2006, 5:34 pm

Thanks for all the info guys....I will try a general service of the injectors first to clear up a new issue with the car...it would not idle...only cut's off....will idle if the aircon is on because the aircon speeds up the engine a little....but it will cut-off sometimes in this mode also...went to a shop "Rons" in south since they are open late (until 11 pm)...they said it is best i get a diagnostics test of the sensors....but i bought an additive named "Moley" something for gas...tossed it in the tank and the car is idling fine now...don't trust that though...will do a full diagnostics in time....anyway i will post any new problems with this car....to help future buyers of GDI vehicles make an informed choice...

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Postby AllTrac » October 25th, 2006, 9:14 pm

if u dont want to go the water injection route, or in addition to the water injection, there is always J&S Knock Guard, it retards each cylinder individually as soon as it senses knock instead of retarding it across the board, then after everything is back to normal it advances it back, im saveing to buy one and adding a water injection kit with it.

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Postby Hoddie » October 26th, 2006, 5:27 pm

You guys down in Trini have 95 octane...and I would suggest using that all the time, and keep away from them octane boosters. They are horrible for clogging things up. They work well on the inlet end of things, but once it is through the injectors to the exhaust system, they coat the O2 sensors with a buildup, and lead to poor O2 transmission values, and O2 sensor failure as a result. That of course messes everything up.

A scan of your O2's, IGN, KR, SFT's, LFT's and MAFF at cruise, idle and WOT would help significantly. You may be able to tune this problem out completely with use of an AFC to regulate fuel to MAFF frequency. You would need an AFC that can add or remove fuel in each individual 1000 MAFF frequency ranges, not a generic one that adds or removes through the whole range. I don't know if the one you mentioned does that or not.

If everything in your scan looks normal, you may have a more serious problem... I would bet KR is causing your computer to pull timing, resulting in a ping due to detonation. It could also be that ping is a result of way too little fuel for what is needed.

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Postby 1.6 TURBO » October 28th, 2006, 3:35 pm

HODDIE....The AFC i am talking about is from APEXi...and it can add/remove fuel +/-50%...at 1000 rev increments...if what you are saying is correct I will try this...thanks :)

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Postby W2J » October 29th, 2006, 6:09 pm

^ and indoing that you will alter the ign timming.

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Postby X2 » October 29th, 2006, 9:28 pm

^^ The changes needed for this car will not significantly alter timing tho.

Either way... Hoddie... our ''95 octane'' gas is 95 RON, which figures down to just under 91 octane at the pump.... it's about equivalent to what you get at your gas stations that would be called regular.

I would highly suggest you try an octane booster on every tank... or look into maybe a cheap alternative like a fuel pressure riser... maybe richening up the mixture could help.

What heat range are you running on ur plugs ? If they are too hot, it would actually cause some hot spots and premature ignition... which could be construed at detonation....other than that, some type of engine management and retuning for local gas will do it...just cost u more.

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Postby W2J » October 30th, 2006, 10:36 am

^ I think you guys getting real tie up here. First off the man say is GDI you can't change out the injectors they sit in the head itself and sprays directly on the pistons. Second you cannot up the FP anymore the injectors are high pressure and the pressure on them are rated over 150psi. Third as I said before you cannot flash these ecus I know first hand because of Muttb. And Forth you sould not install a SAFC on this car the timming will be altered way too high Karmon Vortex meters don't react like Hotwire, Flap MAF's or even maps. The best thing as I said would be water injection but I guess you have already made up your mind.

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Postby X2 » October 30th, 2006, 2:26 pm

stop being a arse meng....the man has not made up his mind, he's asking a question... tech posts are not here to pedal ur wares and discount any other method proposed.

There is not one be all, end all answer. So the engine is direct injection... how are you so positive that water injection will work on this engine then ?

btw... a better intercooler, as mentioned earlier, may also be a fix to minor pinging.

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Postby katurbobeast » October 30th, 2006, 3:42 pm

pinging is caused by too much ignition adv.....
the spark hits the piston while its on upwards movement
just retard the timing a few points until it goes away.....i dont know if ur engine uses a engine knock sensor, if it does then it suppost to retard d timing when it picks up pinging.....

read this....
all about detonation and pre-ignition...
http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/ ... Page_2.php
Last edited by katurbobeast on October 30th, 2006, 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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W2J
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Postby W2J » October 30th, 2006, 3:49 pm

^ thats correct but on most Mitsubishi like the GDI they use wasted spark with coil packs with not dist to retard or advance the spark retard takes place when knock is detected.

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Postby Hoddie » October 30th, 2006, 6:02 pm

HODDIE....The AFC i am talking about is from APEXi...and it can add/remove fuel +/-50%...at 1000 rev increments...if what you are saying is correct I will try this...thanks


A bit different than how I do it...my AFC allows adjustments in the ranges of MAFF...mass air flow frequency. It should work fine through the RPM range also.

Either way... Hoddie... our ''95 octane'' gas is 95 RON, which figures down to just under 91 octane at the pump.... it's about equivalent to what you get at your gas stations that would be called regular.


That sucks...but that is still like our premium up here...the best we get is 94 octane...most stations 91. Our regular is only 87...

And Forth you sould not install a SAFC on this car the timming will be altered way too high Karmon Vortex meters don't react like Hotwire, Flap MAF's or even maps.


This is a good point to consider, and I would be cautious using an AFC with any vehicle if you are not scanning the results before and after. You don't know if you have too much or too little fuel right now, or where your timing is. Be sure to never adjust more than 1% increments at any time. Too much change = bad things...

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Postby stephanweaver » January 14th, 2007, 12:01 pm

water injection will work in his case, water injection cools the cylinders so he wouldnt have detonation.

and his car should be faster after too - take advantage of the cooler temps and timing.

i would think thats its the GAS thats why hes pinging or detonating.
im leaning towards that.

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