Trumpets for a 20 valve silver top engine

[trd4life]

Can anyone help me... I am seeing trumpets for the 4AG Silver top engine but this particular engine carries AFM unlike the Black top which carries MAP sensor. How can I put on these trumpets without changing my Silver top harness to Black top harness????

Please help!!!

[Red Dawg]

The short answer is that you can not
Why do you want to put on the Velocity Stacks?

[trd4life]

Well better air flow and I see Toda Racing is carrying the trumpets for this engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrCE1K95 ... re=related

[trd4life]

please help!!!!

[Red Dawg]

Yes, they carry the trumpets, but it is obvious from the video that they have eliminated the Air Flow Meter
either by using an ECU and Harness from the blacktop or a standalone after-market ECU
and like you said, you want to do it without changing the harness.

The only way to use both Velocity Stacks and an Air Flow Meter would be to enclose the Stacks in an air box which is connected to the Air Flow Meter, which is exactly what your stock air box is, and it already has velocity stacks in it, and they a longer than the ones in the video.

[trd4life]

Ok so I have 2 options
1 Use ECU and Harness from BlackTop or
2 Stand Alone management with SilverTop Harness

Besides a complete SilverTop Engine that I have in my car I have a BlackTop Head & Block that is missing the ECU and Harness

Cool Thanks Red Dawg

[Red Dawg]

The Stand Alone Management requires its own harness custom built from the wires that are supplied with it, but it is basically a Black Top harness.
To run velocity stacks you need to eliminate the Air Flow Meter, but the ECU needs some way of measuring the air flow that is going into the engine, there is no way around it.
The easiest way is a Black Top harness and ECU.

[trd4life]

Cool I have a Blacktop head & block I think I want to use this for my project instead I would just have to locate a harness and ECU, or get a management instead I was told that Haltech is a good brand and would work better that the Greddy Blue (has more options) is that true? If so which one would be best I dont know alot about Stand alone systems?

[Red Dawg]

As far as Stand alone units go, I would go with the Haltech.
But one question that you have not answered is why do you want to fit the velocity stacks.
these alone will not provide any great gains in performance.
and running your engine without air filters will only shorten the engine life.
you might as well pour a handful of sand in the intake.
just fitting velocity stacks will give a minor performance gain and a lot of induction noise

[trd4life]

Sorry I thought if I run the Velocity Stacks I would get better airflow into the engine plus get some added horsepower. But I agree with you about sand in the intake bit. I am also looking at 4 filters they look like the K&N filters just smaller for the top on the Stacks to prevent dust and particles from getting into the intake. I am not gonna run them without some kind of protection on them.

Also do you know which Haltech management to use?

[Red Dawg]

As far as I know, Peak Performance is supposed to be the agent for Haltech in Trinidad

For filters, there are two ways I can think of
1. individual filters for each velocity stack, you will need to figure how you mounting the filter to the stack. some stacks have a flange on the rim to mount the filter.
The advantage of these is that they are easily mounted, providing that the velocity stacks have the flange.
The disadvantage is that these filters are small and the can restrict air flow.

2. An oval filter which covers the entire velocity stack, similar to what was used on Side Draught carburetors.
The advantage of these filters is that they do not disturb the function of the velocity stack and they provide much filter surface area so they do not restrict air flow.
The disadvantage is that I do not know if they make a housing to fit on the 4AGE. this should not be difficult to fabricate.

[Red Dawg]

It is obvious from this discussion that you want to get some more performance from your car.
Let me give you some simple advice before you start throwing money at the engine.

If you have a complete Black Top engine, then I suggest that you install this in your car and use the Silver Top harness and ECU with the Air Flow Meter.
The reason is that the Black Top has 45mm Throttle Bodies, as opposed to the 42mm Throttle Bodies in the Silver Top.
The Intake Cam in the Black Top engine has higher lift than the Silver Top engine.
The Black Top engine has a higher compression ratio than the Silver Top (11:1 vs 10.5:1)

Each of these improvements will result in more performance without spending very much money since you already have the parts.
They certainly will give you more performance than just fitting some Velocity Stacks to a Silver Top engine.

[trd4life]

Yes this is a soon to be project build

I want to bring in 264 degree cams, Uprated Valve Springs and 82mm pistons from Toda Racing, I am reboring the block to fit those pistons. I have the BlackTop head and block on the ground that is missing the ECU and Harness I wanted to use the Silvertop Engine because its already installed in my car but I have no problems in switching it out I just have to source the harness I just saw the trumpets for the Silvertop on Todas website thats why I asked if it could use the trumpets with the harness thats already in the car.

With the advice that you have given me I have decided to use the Blacktop Head & Block rebore to 82mm, Cams, Pistons and Valve Springs from Toda Racing. Haltech management (Once you tell me which one to use) lol and the Velocity Stacks with Filter I am also looking for a 4-1 Spec set of extractors.

Thats my build so far

[thegtiman]

The 170PS variant of this engine uses a speed density ECU ( MAP based) for referencing load.
The 165PS version uses a AFM for referencing load.
There are velocity stacks pre throttle in both versions for the engine. The purpose is the increase aircharge velocity for better low down road response. They need all the help they can get as these engines are quite flat sub 5000 rpm.
If you are planning on uprated camshafts and further modifications, the engine vacuum will be affected and low speed load measurement will lose significant resolution. In such a case the best option would be to use throttle opening and a load reference via a standalone run in " alpha_N" configuration.
The velocity stacks in such an engine would be tuned to catch stand off, lengthen the intact tract and improve low down torque. This benefit will only be realized by many hours of road and dyno tuning.
Several alternative ECUs come to mind and they are;
Omex 600
DTA S series
Emerald K3.

[Red Dawg]

Haltech:
Platinum Sport 1000

[trd4life]

Cool what is "alpha_N" configuration you lost me? I dont know much about these management systems

[trd4life]

to the top

[trd4life]

Carnival Bump

[trd4life]

Red Dawg can you explain what is meant by "alpha_N" configuration

[Red Dawg]

Alpha N is an Engine Management system made by a company in germany called Digitec.
It was primarily designed to replace the Air Flow Meter in Digitec's BMW tuning business.
I know that they have done some work on Mercedes but I do not know if Digitec makes anything that will work on your Toyota.

[trd4life]

Ok just googled it looks like its only for BMW's still was not going to change my mind from the Haltech though. What you think of what I wanna bulid so far Red Dawg? I am waiting to get back my quotation from Toda for the parts for the Blacktop engine

[Red Dawg]

Read these pages
best to copy them and paste them to a word document
Alot of the information is for the 16V but there is some 20V info on them.

http://www.toysport.com/technical%20inf ... _notes.htm
http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm

[trd4life]

I have these sites already there is also Bill Sherwoods 4age page and 4age tech notes

[thegtiman]

Alpha N is an Engine Management system made by a company in germany called Digitec.
It was primarily designed to replace the Air Flow Meter in Digitec's BMW tuning business.
I know that they have done some work on Mercedes but I do not know if Digitec makes anything that will work on your Toyota.

Sorry guys.

The alpha-N as suggested in the post was not a company, but a simple method or algorithm used for load determination in engine calibration maps used in many aftermarket ECUs that were mentioned above.

For example, many OE vehicles use AFM (Air Flow Meter) or MAF ( Mass Air Flow) based ECUs for determining air-charge and thus relative engine load. The throttle angle sensor, part of the algorithm for air charge also acts as a backup in limp home in case the main load reference sensor fails . Some vehicles such as older Honda's and Toyota's used speed density based ECUs or MAP (Manifold Air Pressure) to determine air-charge and thus engine load.
Load determination is used to calculate injection quantity as well as spark advance.

On some modified vehicles with lumpy cams, the accuracy of the MAP or MAF signal can be compromised at low engine speeds and light loads. So an ECU that allows a crude relationship between engine air flow and throttle opening per cycle can be employed.
This is the "alpha-N" concept or in mathematical terms α-N - throttle angle vs engine speed.

[trd4life]

cool I think I understand now thanks

[dmitc]

The short answer is that you can not
Why do you want to put on the Velocity Stacks?

as long as they are enclosed you can put in velocity stacks

[Hook]

^^^ hahahahahaha...well show off nuh!

[dmitc]

^^^ hahahahahaha...well show off nuh!

i'm just sharing knowledge that's all