Detonation

[Clerique]

JDM B18C(R)
Upgraded Valvetrain w/ ARP hardware
OEM 4-1 Header and Exhaust
Apexi Power FC






#4 combustion Chamber


#3


#1


#2 was pretty fine.

Some of you guys may never experience this, but I thought I'd show you what it looks like.

[Rooki3]

hmmh, Cleriq, i saw these pics somewhere B4, you on hond-tech.....................username clerique?

[Clerique]

Rooki3, yup!

[Swifted]

was that a boosted engine? cuz the racket that would have been made to cause that kind of destruction surely could have clued in the driver to 'lift'. lol

[red_dragon]

^ engine was NA

[Kinday]

Gosh....sorry to see that buddy....how lean were you at WOT?

[Clerique]

^Richest was 12.5 and leanest was 13.8.
I have a few theories how it could have happened but nothing concrete as yet.
The most feasible reason I have is the period I had in the cams, I had some ridiculously high timing in vtec. But, my management showed no sign of detonation and my AFR never went leaner than 13.8.

I have gained some knowledge a and spoken to a few people since then. Hopefully, soon I should rebuild something a little less 'stock' and a little more powerful.

[r3iXmann]

^ yuh sellin parts orrr?

[Rooki3]

^ yuh sellin parts orrr?

EH?

[r3iXmann]

^ yuh sellin parts orrr?

EH?

reee mixxxx

[red_dragon]

Cleriq : what was your 1000-5000 AFR like ?

some thing to check out

plug wires, dizzy, injectors .. did u replace when u rebuilt

[Kinday]

^Richest was 12.5 and leanest was 13.8.
I have a few theories how it could have happened but nothing concrete as yet.
The most feasible reason I have is the period I had in the cams, I had some ridiculously high timing in vtec. But, my management showed no sign of detonation and my AFR never went leaner than 13.8.

I have gained some knowledge a and spoken to a few people since then. Hopefully, soon I should rebuild something a little less 'stock' and a little more powerful.

True. I'm assuming you detonated because your EGT's must have been super high from the excessive timing and leaner spots along the curve (13.8? at times at WOT). I didn't think the B series loved lots of timing, maybe I'm so wrong....Try a richer mixture next time to keep the cylinders cooler with that high timing, though the 12.5 was good I should think....just my op, after all, you're the one who encouraged me to start learning about DIY tuning after our emanage chat...lol.

At least you can put the new knowledge to good use with your new build and check your EGT's. Don't forget to share the knowledge, I got my copy book open.

[Swifted]

high CR related detonation cannot be cured by richening the mixture, or retarding ignition timing. the only way to solve det. is to -> up the octane of the fuel.

and there's no sense going further than 34 degrees BTDC timing with the Pentroof cyl. head, more than that and IT will be directly responsible for the det. lol

[FORZA_PRETTYBOY]

^Richest was 12.5 and leanest was 13.8.
I have a few theories how it could have happened but nothing concrete as yet.
The most feasible reason I have is the period I had in the cams, I had some ridiculously high timing in vtec. But, my management showed no sign of detonation and my AFR never went leaner than 13.8.

I have gained some knowledge a and spoken to a few people since then. Hopefully, soon I should rebuild something a little less 'stock' and a little more powerful.

Mentor,u going boost after u decimate all??

[Kinday]

high CR related detonation cannot be cured by richening the mixture, or retarding ignition timing. the only way to solve det. is to -> up the octane of the fuel.

and there's no sense going further than 34 degrees BTDC timing with the Pentroof cyl. head, more than that and IT will be directly responsible for the det. lol

Good point....I'm assuming he was running 95 RON and I personally have no clue how much timing it was though.

[Rooki3]

according to honda tech



approx. 55 degrees

[Clerique]

red_dragon, changed dizzy, wires and plugs. No problems there! Low RPMs AFRs was in the 13's.

I made a costly mistake/experiment (I believe).

My low cam street tune was pretty good, highest timing figures before vtec was 32* I think. The car had massive power in the low cam but as soon as vtec came in it fell flat.

Unfortunately, the Power FC only has one map, that controls the low and high cam. Selecting a vtec point was trial and error. I treated the timing map as if it had one continuous cam profile, so my timing went up after vtec from the 32* up to 55*+.

Swifted is right, above 34* is simply impractical. With the cam switch over, I should have dropped the timing from 32* and gradually increase all over again.

I placed faith in my Power FC that it would indicate when knock would occur even though I couldn't hear it. After 40 days, I gave up and pulled out the cams and put back in the stock ones.
The engine blew with the stock cams and the map where I made 184whp. But I guess the damage was already done, cause the car was losing a lot of oil before that.
Another management would make life much easier, but I'll try again.

There are a lot of odd factors that I have to analyze, like a suspected faulty injector @ #4 cylinder, crack in intake manifold runner to #4 cylinder even down to my engine health before the cam installation.

I welcome any ideas.

[red_dragon]

time to dump the power FC

that major damage to cylinder 4 would add to injector and crack and cause it to run lean

[JDM_GUY]

Thats some serious stuff, My ignition rattles I wonder how it looks. Every thing we do on our own we learn from, Next time you wouldn't make the same mistake.

[Swifted]

yea, detonation IS a beyotch! I have to live with Octane boosters cuz of my cylinder pressures are 265PSI. I can hear when she's pinging (during the heat of the day I don't bother WOTing above 4,500!).

[X2]

Not 55 advanced... 55 total.... dais alot particularly for our gas.

Cleriq... mention to the guys the lack of audible ping nah.... all yuh feel tuning is as easy as reading it on the net orrr ?

[Rooki3]

all yuh feel tuning is as easy as reading it on the net orrr

e-tuning is easy yo

[dry]

PFC has been pretty reliable with knock detection in my experience. You sure the knock sensor was hooked up?

55* timing is a LOT! I've never gone past 32-34 on full load N/A areas and 44-45 in full vacuum.

[Clerique]

Knock sensor worked perfectly, I was able to eliminate 'rattling' in the low rpm/high load as well as in the mid range areas, with the check light feature.

I must remind you guys, that the 55* was with Skunk2 cams ONLY, never the stock cams.

And yes, I did mention to X2 and a few other people what I was doing and told them about the lack of audible 'ping' and no PFC warning.

[honda hoe]

time to dump the power FC

why? its an excellent management imho

no offence but jus cuz cleriq didn't know what he's doing (after all he's not a pro tuner) it doesn't mean it was the fault of the management

however he could try the hondata s300.. he might find it more user friendly

[red_dragon]

reason :

the ECU has a monitor stated and if it not doing it properly

or before he put in the new Killa

look at an aftermarket knock sensor/meter

and with the skunk2 cams they require lotta compression .. no really for stock comp engine

also were those the revised version ? cause some of the early ones were are mess

[Clerique]

reason :

the ECU has a monitor stated and if it not doing it properly

or before he put in the new Killa

look at an aftermarket knock sensor/meter

and with the skunk2 cams they require lotta compression .. no really for stock comp engine

also were those the revised version ? cause some of the early ones were are mess

The ECU is not the greatest but it's damn good. It's much simpler than people think, the lack of features make it a little less user friendly.
I was able to do this with it.


A knock sensor is not 100% fool proof, it picks up abnormal engine vibration and may even pick up other operational noises not in the combustion chamber. Idealy, a car would have one for each cylinder.

As a matter of fact, mine indicated knock under deceleration from 4000-3000 rpm, which is impossible, as there is absolutely no load on the engine. Why? I'll let someone else explain that.

Which Skunk2 cams require a lot of compression and why?

And what 'revised version' you speak of?

[haydn28]

red_dragon, changed dizzy, wires and plugs. No problems there! Low RPMs AFRs was in the 13's.

I made a costly mistake/experiment (I believe).

My low cam street tune was pretty good, highest timing figures before vtec was 32* I think. The car had massive power in the low cam but as soon as vtec came in it fell flat.

Unfortunately, the Power FC only has one map, that controls the low and high cam. Selecting a vtec point was trial and error. I treated the timing map as if it had one continuous cam profile, so my timing went up after vtec from the 32* up to 55*+.

Swifted is right, above 34* is simply impractical. With the cam switch over, I should have dropped the timing from 32* and gradually increase all over again.

I placed faith in my Power FC that it would indicate when knock would occur even though I couldn't hear it. After 40 days, I gave up and pulled out the cams and put back in the stock ones.
The engine blew with the stock cams and the map where I made 184whp. But I guess the damage was already done, cause the car was losing a lot of oil before that.
Another management would make life much easier, but I'll try again.

There are a lot of odd factors that I have to analyze, like a suspected faulty injector @ #4 cylinder, crack in intake manifold runner to #4 cylinder even down to my engine health before the cam installation.

I welcome any ideas.

cleriq keep using the power fc.. @ the v tec switch over pt , start tuning a lower ignition map 22-32 deg. get a new knock sensor(prob its going), .
get the injectors flow tested, .

[Clerique]

haydn28, I definitely will use it again.
To be honest I was supposed to purchase new injectors a LONG time ago, the stock ones would max out on my 5th gear highway runs. I actually had a set of different injectors in the car to try out. I was doing 220kph+ when the engine kicked. I wasn't supposed to maintain that speed with the questionable injectors but me and 'Johnny' was liming that night. I had also plan to park up the car the day after.

[red_dragon]

Cleriq

I am going by what skunk has on their site

http://www.skunk2.com/cgi-bin/kb.cgi?do ... 39&lang=en


yes in the early days Skunk was making a mess with their cams