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neilsingh100
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Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby neilsingh100 » May 5th, 2020, 7:46 am

Caribbean Airlines will most likely be one of the biggest casualty of COVID-19 in terms of loss making government entities.

The lease on the 12 Boeing 737-800 airplanes in CAL's fleet is costing approximately TT$25 million / month so over two years that is TT$600 million not counting other cost like salaries which will most likely push cost to taxpayers into the billions.

Is it time for the government to get out of the airline business? Can T&T afford to bail out CAL?

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dizzy28 » May 5th, 2020, 8:52 am

CAL is a failure.
All this hullabaloo was generated last year that they made a profit but in reality they received a write down from NP, that was Cabinet approved for fuel bigger than the profit they declared.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby paid_influencer » May 5th, 2020, 8:56 am

if anything, the failure of airlines internationally shows the need for our own domestically-controlled regional airline.

It is expensive as hell, but in return we get some guarantees that we will not be cut off from each other or the rest of the world (under the conditions we decide).

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dizzy28 » May 5th, 2020, 9:17 am

paid_influencer wrote:if anything, the failure of airlines internationally shows the need for our own domestically-controlled regional airline.

It is expensive as hell, but in return we get some guarantees that we will not be cut off from each other or the rest of the world (under the conditions we decide).


Has LIAT not shown what a money pit a regional airline will be?

Trinidad is getting poorer not richer. We can't be wasting money if the business case shows a regional airlines is not profitable. One of the biggest issue (but not the only one) is that the smaller Caribbean countries have lots of taxes on air travel which they all seem unwilling to negotiate on.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby neilsingh100 » May 5th, 2020, 9:17 am

paid_influencer wrote:if anything, the failure of airlines internationally shows the need for our own domestically-controlled regional airline.

It is expensive as hell, but in return we get some guarantees that we will not be cut off from each other or the rest of the world (under the conditions we decide).
I don't agree, we are cut off right now and may be so for a while and able to survive with Amerijet bringing in most of our air freight. I believe we can survive without at state run airline. In fact, international competition caused CAL to reduce rates. The government can continue to subside the Tobago route but use private carriers instead. If we ever need to go to the IMF, one of the first state enterprise that will have to be divested is CAL.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Redman » May 5th, 2020, 9:34 am

Ive wondered if a PRIVATE Sea plane based tobago service out of POS and Sando could be viable.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dizzy28 » May 5th, 2020, 9:36 am

The past decade has not been very forgiving for state airlines and now it has been exacerbated by Covid.
Air India was supposed to be bought by someone by now but the sale has been extended by the Government twice and just two weeks ago South African Airways ran out of cash and are preparing to shut down.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby elec2020 » May 5th, 2020, 9:41 am

Hasnt the problem with regional airlines been high tickets discouraging regional travelling and high tickets occuring due to various caribbean governments imposing high air travel taxes... in essence the problem is regional governments being narrow minded and greedy... wanting to have it all for themselves... look at Red Jet... regional tourism was supposed to boom because of Red Jet but the government at the time (UNC) blovked Red Jet from using our air spaces causing Red Jet to eventually go belly up... the Caribbean is its own worst enemy

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Redman » May 5th, 2020, 9:43 am

But island states need proper lines of travel - to cede this to what is likely to be US carriers leaves us open to the whims of their corporate and geopolitical whims and fancy.

It sucks but we have a geography and economy that depend on dependable airline travel.

I dont think we have a choice.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby VexXx Dogg » May 5th, 2020, 10:20 am

Reverse globalization may mean less travel.
The airline industry might not have the previous volumen of traveller for a while.
Curious to see this represented graphically.

Domestic travel maybe not so much, but international travel for sure.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby maj. tom » May 5th, 2020, 10:20 am

The future of all airlines and air travel is in question. Globally, a lot of them are going to fold and all of them will require Government bailout. 9/11 aftermath was a lot worse than what's currently going on.


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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dizzy28 » May 5th, 2020, 10:22 am

maj. tom wrote:The future of all airlines and air travel is in question. Globally, a lot of them are going to fold and all of them will require Government bailout. 9/11 aftermath was a lot worse than what's currently going on.



Except in this case the Government annually bails out the company.
It is not one off

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby hydroep » May 5th, 2020, 10:41 am

Maybe the solution is the consolidate all the regional airlines into one carrier: CA, Liat etc.

Countries go have to swallow the "Pride" that comes from operating their own airlines because this is a matter of survival.

Talking about that, ah wonder what go happen to Guyana Airways now? All the boast they was boasting...like they go have to take the "unfair treatment" from CA for some time to come...:|

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby pugboy » May 5th, 2020, 10:57 am

emirates has offered vsep to pilots already
and usually if they cutting they cut the lower ranked ones but of course those are less paid

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby pugboy » May 5th, 2020, 10:58 am

CAL bread and butter were the 3 or 4 daily New York flights esp with the Guyanese travelling to NY
that surely taking a serious hit now

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dizzy28 » May 5th, 2020, 10:59 am

hydroep wrote:Maybe the solution is the consolidate all the regional airlines into one carrier: CA, Liat etc.

Countries go have to swallow the "Pride" that comes from operating their own airlines because this is a matter of survival.

Talking about that, ah wonder what go happen to Guyana Airways now? All the boast they was boasting...like they go have to take the "unfair treatment" from CA for some time to come...:|


The first solution would be to not have any Government involved. Governments want to win elections not run businesses effectively. All small islands would want daily and multiple flights. Some of the load factors would not allow for this. Heck even last year Ralph Gonsalves mentioned Trinidad and St Lucia had the lowest load factors for Liat.

https://www.stabroeknews.com/2019/03/28 ... ago-route/

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Redman » May 5th, 2020, 11:12 am

CEO Boeing says 2025 before things return to 2019 levels-and you know when he says 2025 he might believe 2028-30

Maybe we need more Marine based transport.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dohplaydat » May 5th, 2020, 11:29 am

neilsingh100 wrote:
paid_influencer wrote:if anything, the failure of airlines internationally shows the need for our own domestically-controlled regional airline.

It is expensive as hell, but in return we get some guarantees that we will not be cut off from each other or the rest of the world (under the conditions we decide).
I don't agree, we are cut off right now and may be so for a while and able to survive with Amerijet bringing in most of our air freight. I believe we can survive without at state run airline. In fact, international competition caused CAL to reduce rates. The government can continue to subside the Tobago route but use private carriers instead. If we ever need to go to the IMF, one of the first state enterprise that will have to be divested is CAL.


You're wrong, a strong regional airline puts us in excellent position. Not to mention boosts our abilities as a trade partner and the negotiating power we'll hold in the Caribbean region.

Airline industries are a very sensitive hard to profit business and are at the mercies of international events like this.

CAL profits are a thing of the pass but we should strongly consider even expanding CAL versus having some other BS wastage.

CAL has an opportunity now to negotiate more international gates at a lower price. With BA and Virgin in trouble, CAL can position themselves to monopolize the Caribbean to Europe routes. Tourism will bounce back in a a year or 2, and if CAL is the airline of choice for UK to Barbados/Jam/Lucia/Vincent etc we could be earning millions and profiting.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dizzy28 » May 5th, 2020, 11:41 am

Dohplaydat wrote:
neilsingh100 wrote:
paid_influencer wrote:if anything, the failure of airlines internationally shows the need for our own domestically-controlled regional airline.

It is expensive as hell, but in return we get some guarantees that we will not be cut off from each other or the rest of the world (under the conditions we decide).
I don't agree, we are cut off right now and may be so for a while and able to survive with Amerijet bringing in most of our air freight. I believe we can survive without at state run airline. In fact, international competition caused CAL to reduce rates. The government can continue to subside the Tobago route but use private carriers instead. If we ever need to go to the IMF, one of the first state enterprise that will have to be divested is CAL.


You're wrong, a strong regional airline puts us in excellent position. Not to mention boosts our abilities as a trade partner and the negotiating power we'll hold in the Caribbean region.

Airline industries are a very sensitive hard to profit business and are at the mercies of international events like this.

CAL profits are a thing of the pass but we should strongly consider even expanding CAL versus having some other BS wastage.

CAL has an opportunity now to negotiate more international gates at a lower price. With BA and Virgin in trouble, CAL can position themselves to monopolize the Caribbean to Europe routes. Tourism will bounce back in a a year or 2, and if CAL is the airline of choice for UK to Barbados/Jam/Lucia/Vincent etc we could be earning millions and profiting.


You seem to love Government funding dubiously profitably activities.

And why are you not on the Government's road map committee as you seem to have the solution to every problem Trinidad has.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby maj. tom » May 5th, 2020, 11:52 am

*jeremy clarkson voice*

"Daran is the man... with many jobs and qualifications! He once rescued a SEAL team in Baghdad, dated many chicks who weren't real, and some say... he even cured the Covid-19 plague and then fixed the economy by himself.

All we can say is, he's a pathological lyingcunt!"

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dohplaydat » May 5th, 2020, 12:13 pm

maj. tom wrote:*jeremy clarkson voice*

"Daran is the man... with many jobs and qualifications! He once rescued a SEAL team in Baghdad, dated many chicks who weren't real, and some say... he even cured the Covid-19 plague and then fixed the economy by himself.

All we can say is, he's a pathological lyingcunt!"



funny thing, I've been to Baghdad over a year ago (did not get laid there). Either way, lying scunt or not, counter argue me.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby adnj » May 5th, 2020, 12:14 pm

maj. tom wrote:*jeremy clarkson voice*

"Daran is the man... with many jobs and qualifications! He once rescued a SEAL team in Baghdad, dated many chicks who weren't real, and some say... he even cured the Covid-19 plague and then fixed the economy by himself.

All we can say is, he's a pathological lyingcunt!"


Completed three PhDs by the age of fifteen.

First Caricom national to orbit the earth.

Invented the steel pan.

Convincingly portrayed PM Rowley at a sitting of the Parliament.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dohplaydat » May 5th, 2020, 12:18 pm

adnj wrote:
maj. tom wrote:*jeremy clarkson voice*

"Daran is the man... with many jobs and qualifications! He once rescued a SEAL team in Baghdad, dated many chicks who weren't real, and some say... he even cured the Covid-19 plague and then fixed the economy by himself.

All we can say is, he's a pathological lyingcunt!"


Completed three PhDs by the age of fifteen.

First Caricom national to orbit the earth.

Invented the steel pan.

Convincingly portrayed PM Rowley at a sitting of the Parliament.


Only one PhD bro and I'm sheit at most musical instruments, know me better by now nah.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dizzy28 » May 5th, 2020, 12:21 pm

adnj wrote:
maj. tom wrote:*jeremy clarkson voice*

"Daran is the man... with many jobs and qualifications! He once rescued a SEAL team in Baghdad, dated many chicks who weren't real, and some say... he even cured the Covid-19 plague and then fixed the economy by himself.

All we can say is, he's a pathological lyingcunt!"


Completed three PhDs by the age of fifteen.

First Caricom national to orbit the earth.

Invented the steel pan.

Convincingly portrayed PM Rowley at a sitting of the Parliament.


Defeated Chuck Norris in hand to hand combat

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby A172 » May 5th, 2020, 12:26 pm

at least Daran aint hadda worry abt covid effects

he broke & suffering long before as clearly seen here

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby supremacy_007 » May 5th, 2020, 12:35 pm

its possibilites are infinite, but with continus government meddling, crappy ass management and a failed model, what can be and what is are very far apart and contrasting.

CAL is just another WASA, TSTT and T&TEC i wonder what they all have in common.....

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby adnj » May 5th, 2020, 12:43 pm

Dohplaydat wrote:
neilsingh100 wrote:
paid_influencer wrote:if anything, the failure of airlines internationally shows the need for our own domestically-controlled regional airline.

It is expensive as hell, but in return we get some guarantees that we will not be cut off from each other or the rest of the world (under the conditions we decide).
I don't agree, we are cut off right now and may be so for a while and able to survive with Amerijet bringing in most of our air freight. I believe we can survive without at state run airline. In fact, international competition caused CAL to reduce rates. The government can continue to subside the Tobago route but use private carriers instead. If we ever need to go to the IMF, one of the first state enterprise that will have to be divested is CAL.


You're wrong, a strong regional airline puts us in excellent position. Not to mention boosts our abilities as a trade partner and the negotiating power we'll hold in the Caribbean region.

Airline industries are a very sensitive hard to profit business and are at the mercies of international events like this.

CAL profits are a thing of the pass but we should strongly consider even expanding CAL versus having some other BS wastage.

CAL has an opportunity now to negotiate more international gates at a lower price. With BA and Virgin in trouble, CAL can position themselves to monopolize the Caribbean to Europe routes. Tourism will bounce back in a a year or 2, and if CAL is the airline of choice for UK to Barbados/Jam/Lucia/Vincent etc we could be earning millions and profiting.


80% of Caribbean air travel is to DR, Jamaica, Barbados, PR, USVI, Aruba, Cuba, Martinique, and St. Marteen. Much of the travel is to/from associated countries such as UK, US, France, and the Netherlands. All of the airlines from those countries have been hard hit, are heavy GDP contributors, have been deemed to big to fail, and are in negotiations for bailout packages currently.

With Boeing and Airbus having a greater than 90% global commercial market share, do not expect any of the aforementioned nations to consider a contracted market as a reason to withdraw financial support.

In fact, there is likely to be low cost seating available for the next two or three years alá the post-September 11th air travel scenario.

And similarly, we are likely to see mergers amongst some players with like-DNA but a bounce back of miles traveled in a year is unlikely. Return to profit may occur within a year or two at the expense of reducing the number of seats available and headcount.

You may see renegotiating on gate prices but I seriously doubt the need for more gates to service fewer planes with fewer passengers.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby matr1x » May 5th, 2020, 12:50 pm

The smart thing would be to have better ticket prices and better pay packages to help revitalize the airline.




But pnm in power so is only dotishness to expect

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby Dohplaydat » May 5th, 2020, 12:59 pm

adnj wrote:
Dohplaydat wrote:
neilsingh100 wrote:
paid_influencer wrote:if anything, the failure of airlines internationally shows the need for our own domestically-controlled regional airline.

It is expensive as hell, but in return we get some guarantees that we will not be cut off from each other or the rest of the world (under the conditions we decide).
I don't agree, we are cut off right now and may be so for a while and able to survive with Amerijet bringing in most of our air freight. I believe we can survive without at state run airline. In fact, international competition caused CAL to reduce rates. The government can continue to subside the Tobago route but use private carriers instead. If we ever need to go to the IMF, one of the first state enterprise that will have to be divested is CAL.


You're wrong, a strong regional airline puts us in excellent position. Not to mention boosts our abilities as a trade partner and the negotiating power we'll hold in the Caribbean region.

Airline industries are a very sensitive hard to profit business and are at the mercies of international events like this.

CAL profits are a thing of the pass but we should strongly consider even expanding CAL versus having some other BS wastage.

CAL has an opportunity now to negotiate more international gates at a lower price. With BA and Virgin in trouble, CAL can position themselves to monopolize the Caribbean to Europe routes. Tourism will bounce back in a a year or 2, and if CAL is the airline of choice for UK to Barbados/Jam/Lucia/Vincent etc we could be earning millions and profiting.


80% of Caribbean air travel is to DR, Jamaica, Barbados, PR, USVI, Aruba, Cuba, Martinique, and St. Marteen. Much of the travel is to/from associated countries such as UK, US, France, and the Netherlands. All of the airlines from those countries have been hard hit, are heavy GDP contributors, have been deemed to big to fail, and are in negotiations for bailout packages currently.

With Boeing and Airbus having a greater than 90% global commercial market share, do not expect any of the aforementioned nations to consider a contracted market as a reason to withdraw financial support.

In fact, there is likely to be low cost seating available for the next two or three years alá the post-September 11th air travel scenario.

And similarly, we are likely to see mergers amongst some players with like-DNA but a bounce back of miles traveled in a year is unlikely. Return to profit may occur within a year or two at the expense of reducing the number of seats available and headcount.


Nope, it's far worse than that. Governments haven't bailed out any airline just yet, reason being, bail out now and in a year they still fail.

Airlines are now being forced to lean up, cut routes and lay off. BA has laid of 12,000 staff and cut their entire Gatwick operation. Virgin might go bust or get acquired.

adnj wrote:You may see renegotiating on gate prices but I seriously doubt the need for more gates to service fewer planes with fewer passengers.


I believe this is happening already as airports are in danger of going bankrupt too as airlines cut routes.

matr1x wrote:The smart thing would be to have better ticket prices and better pay packages to help revitalize the airline.




But pnm in power so is only dotishness to expect


But how they doing that if many countries will have 14 quarantine when visiting, or imagine they don't you go for a lil weekend in Miami and then bam, 14-day quarantine in Cuara when you come back in.

People are getting laid of and there will be more later this year + fear of the virus worldwide means the demand for air travel will be crap for the next 12 months.

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Re: Future of Caribbean Airlines

Postby adnj » May 5th, 2020, 1:27 pm

Dohplaydat wrote: Governments haven't bailed out any airline just yet, reason being, bail out now and in a year they still fail.

Airlines are now being forced to lean up, cut routes and lay off.


In case you were unaware of what happened nearly a month ago:

US government agrees on $25bn bailout for airlines as pandemic halts travel

Passenger airline companies are receiving direct aid as part of the $2.2tn Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security Act

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... s-industry

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