Petrotrin refinery shut down

[sMASH]

My point is simply that the govt's responsible to establish a balance.


Its amazing how conclusive you guys in an absence of facts.

You are sure it's the way you see it.and not any other way.

just as sure as our pnm opposition.

u making this thing from the business point of view.
the experience in those plants is: keep on cycling them plant rates in pt lisas, and u will get ur unplanned down times, which cost to repair and incur loss of productions. both of which impact ur gross profits, and subsequent tax revenue.

u will fite up to turn around one plant and mash up the others due to lack of gas. wait till 2025 draws nearer, when the other shareholders willing to get thier asset turning over revenue, pay less, and maximize the gas u have right now.
allyuh want to rush the brush.


but i hear u with having the plant up and running will make it easier for gortt to get finance for loans. i mean, u cnat dip into the HSF too often, how it goh look.

Ok so smash says-dont run it like a business.
ETA

Well gas shortages are looming...and BP as of last month says2021/22 with others coming online.
Turn around and be in play when the other three come off contract.

In the midst of the negotiating of the ownership of the 3 other trains, keeping the one that brings us the most value alive and in play must be part of the larger strategy.

sacrificing pt lisas just to save face and keep one train running will make the candle cost more than the funeral. the knock on effects will be detrimental. methanex already indicated it may pull out by mothballing 50% of its plants. yara mothballed 25% of theirs, proman has some down, not sure how many. pcs sold out their assets to someone else, their name i cant remember.

im running it more like a business than a personal slush fund/fun house

[Redman]

Does mothballing Train 1 guarantee the plants in Point Lisas start back up?

LNG represents over 50%of the NG utilization while pt Lisas represents mid 30%

I've not been able to find how the LNG, ammonia and Methanol sub sectors individually contribute to GDP....have you?

Given the numbers I would think we need both.
CBTT has Methanol,Ammonia,and Urea exports as peaking in 2010, bottoming in 2014, spike into 2016, with 2019 being 10-20% higher than 2018.
No data for 2020.

So business contracting in terms of volume since 2010.

The strategy since 2019 is to get a bigger price of all the LNG revenue...the TAR (as opposed to mothballing) keeps it in play....again why not shut down trains 2,3 or,4.?

[zoom rader]

Men never pull a spanner or start a pump for a vessel but dem expert on Industrial plants.

[sMASH]

https://newsday.co.tt/2021/01/07/methan ... ers-to-go/

Methanex on Thursday announced that the Titan methanol plant in Point Lisas will remain idled indefinitely.

The plant was initially idled last March, with the company then citing covid19 and weakened international demand for that decision.

In a statement on its website, the company said as a result, it has made a decision to restructure its Trinidad operations to support a one-plant operation. It will reduce its Trinidad workforce by approximately 60 positions filled by employees and long-term contractors.

The company said the inability to secure a long-term gas agreement was part of the reason for its decision.

In a statement on its website, the company said as a result, it has made a decision to restructure its Trinidad operations to support a one-plant operation. It will reduce its Trinidad workforce by approximately 60 positions filled by employees and long-term contractors.

The company said the inability to secure a long-term gas agreement was part of the reason for its decision.

"To date, we have not been successful (in) reaching an agreement for an economic longer-term natural gas agreement and given that the economic recovery path remains uncertain we believe it is prudent to reduce costs while continuing our efforts to secure longer-term gas supply," it said.

The Atlas methanol facility (a joint venture with the Government in which Methanex's interest is 63.1 per cent) is not affected by the change and continues to operate, as it is underpinned by a separate natural gas supply agreement that expires in 2024.

John Floren, president and CEO of Methanex, said in the statement that the company remained committed to doing business in Trinidad and Tobago.

"We believe that we will be able to secure an economic longer-term natural gas agreement for Titan in the coming years. Our operations in Trinidad are well located to supply global methanol markets and are an important component of our global production network. We are taking the necessary steps to maintain Titan to ensure a safe and efficient restart of the plant when a longer-term gas agreement is reached.”

[zoom rader]

^^^ Red government strikes again

That's why they sent back Habit7 to blog.

Island of store clerks and waiters

[Habit7]

Let me help you read with want you can't see with your anti-PNM glasses.

Methanex on Thursday announced that the Titan methanol plant in Point Lisas will remain idled indefinitely.

The plant was initially idled last March, with the company then citing covid19 and weakened international demand for that decision.

In a statement on its website, the company said as a result, it has made a decision to restructure its Trinidad operations to support a one-plant operation. It will reduce its Trinidad workforce by approximately 60 positions filled by employees and long-term contractors.

The company said the inability to secure a long-term gas agreement was part of the reason for its decision.

In a statement on its website, the company said as a result, it has made a decision to restructure its Trinidad operations to support a one-plant operation. It will reduce its Trinidad workforce by approximately 60 positions filled by employees and long-term contractors.

The company said the inability to secure a long-term gas agreement was part of the reason for its decision.

"To date, we have not been successful (in) reaching an agreement for an economic longer-term natural gas agreement and given that the economic recovery path remains uncertain we believe it is prudent to reduce costs while continuing our efforts to secure longer-term gas supply," it said.

The Atlas methanol facility (a joint venture with the Government in which Methanex's interest is 63.1 per cent) is not affected by the change and continues to operate, as it is underpinned by a separate natural gas supply agreement that expires in 2024.

John Floren, president and CEO of Methanex, said in the statement that the company remained committed to doing business in Trinidad and Tobago.

"We believe that we will be able to secure an economic longer-term natural gas agreement for Titan in the coming years. Our operations in Trinidad are well located to supply global methanol markets and are an important component of our global production network. We are taking the necessary steps to maintain Titan to ensure a safe and efficient restart of the plant when a longer-term gas agreement is reached.”

[/quote]
There is a fall in a demand for the product. They want to shake us down to sell our gas at cost price or a loss. The Atlas plant is being mandated to operate so that we get our money for gas and they get whatever tight margins remain. But Titan they are trying to hustle us.

Until world demand increases, it is better for them to shut down and we could redirect the gas that they were using to another high taxed plant than to compromise and make T&T lose.

[zoom rader]

Let me help you read with want you can't see with your anti-PNM glasses.

Methanex on Thursday announced that the Titan methanol plant in Point Lisas will remain idled indefinitely.

The plant was initially idled last March, with the company then citing covid19 and weakened international demand for that decision.

In a statement on its website, the company said as a result, it has made a decision to restructure its Trinidad operations to support a one-plant operation. It will reduce its Trinidad workforce by approximately 60 positions filled by employees and long-term contractors.

The company said the inability to secure a long-term gas agreement was part of the reason for its decision.

In a statement on its website, the company said as a result, it has made a decision to restructure its Trinidad operations to support a one-plant operation. It will reduce its Trinidad workforce by approximately 60 positions filled by employees and long-term contractors.

The company said the inability to secure a long-term gas agreement was part of the reason for its decision.

"To date, we have not been successful (in) reaching an agreement for an economic longer-term natural gas agreement and given that the economic recovery path remains uncertain we believe it is prudent to reduce costs while continuing our efforts to secure longer-term gas supply," it said.

The Atlas methanol facility (a joint venture with the Government in which Methanex's interest is 63.1 per cent) is not affected by the change and continues to operate, as it is underpinned by a separate natural gas supply agreement that expires in 2024.

John Floren, president and CEO of Methanex, said in the statement that the company remained committed to doing business in Trinidad and Tobago.

"We believe that we will be able to secure an economic longer-term natural gas agreement for Titan in the coming years. Our operations in Trinidad are well located to supply global methanol markets and are an important component of our global production network. We are taking the necessary steps to maintain Titan to ensure a safe and efficient restart of the plant when a longer-term gas agreement is reached.”

There is a fall in a demand for the product. They want to shake us down to sell our gas at cost price or a loss. The Atlas plant is being mandated to operate so that we get our money for gas and they get whatever tight margins remain. But Titan they are trying to hustle us.

Until world demand increases, it is better for them to shut down and we could redirect the gas that they were using to another high taxed plant than to compromise and make T&T lose.[/quote]So send the skilled workforce home.

Nice

[Habit7]

Or sell our nonrenewable resource at a loss or cost price and when it done, it done.

[sMASH]

sooo, now u have 0 tax from that plant, and 0 income tax from those workers. not even considering where they gonna get an income from.
prolly they could get work in train 1 TAR to pull rope and paint steel beam

[zoom rader]

sooo, now u have 0 tax from that plant, and 0 income tax from those workers. not even considering where they gonna get an income from.
prolly they could get work in train 1 TAR to pull rope and paint steel beam

Habit7 have to toe the red government line.

Shut down plants, send workers home. That is called saving money

Red government strategy.

Meanwhile red government MPs continues to be multimillionaires while citizens lose jobs day by day.

They invent laws to make money for themselves

Then king kant Rowlee tells his people move out of east POS and hold strain.

Kants of the week

Habit7 & Redman

[sMASH]

And y I say kerp train 1 down in favor of keeping pt Lisas plant up, is that Train 1 needs 300m to remain up... Not the pt Lisas ones.

[Redman]

smash....who makes the decision on what to do with the gas you think will be available from mothballing train 1?


BP and Shell


BP and She'll are not shareholders in any of the plants that are shut down due to the gas price....which is largely based on the Price that BP Shell are charging us for their supply.

They are however shareholders in 2,3 and 4... With BP owning a piece of Atlas.
Train one is unique since we have the most transparency on the sales and also we share in the upside.

Coincedence?

NGC has to restructure itself, while restructuring the way all the contracts are dealt with, while fighting off liability for curtailment.

We not in a good spot, and it isn't a simple solution.
It isn't checkers.

[sMASH]

as the contracts mature, they get renegotiated. but some of the negotiations went years, and sometimes with interim month to month arrangements.

well, all the jobs that would be saved with the train 1 TAR is balanced with the titan mothball.
i already show where the break even on the TAR would be faster if u left it till 2025 rather than bearing all that cost now.

once they dont cycle the pt lisas plants, they shouldnt get more than expected blow outs. so at least u will not lose out on taxes on earnings that way.

[Redman]

Your assumption is based on .....???

Any consideration for the other negotiation s?

Tell us how you grantee that shutting down Train 1 ensures gas goes to PTLisas

And further...aren't the plants shutting down because they claim NG is too expensive?

Train one has zero impact on PTL economics.

BPShell will send all gas to T2,3,4. That's where it benefits them...while there is no liability to them for curtailment in PTLISAS

If BP decides to send the T1 gas to Pt Lisas....isn't going to be at the same price?

So you suggesting closing T1.....without your upside of stabilized PTL....being ascertained

[DreamWeaver]

Don't overlook the most important factors when shutting down either train 1 or the petrochemical plants: Supply & Demand.
If train 1 gets shut down for even a year, chances are that other foreign lng facilities will fill the void, making it even harder to get a market when starting back up. Same applies to methanol, ammonia, urea, uan and melamine. Future lng and petrochemical plants are still being constructed around the world at record pace thanks to shale gas and renewables. It's also worth noting that the very same companies here (bp, shell, nutrien, proman, methanex & yara) are all working on constructing new foreign plants to produce the very same things they produce here.

[zoom rader]

The red government continues to run out the industry industries to create a nation of store clerks and waiters.

1% working plans while red government MP continue make laws for them to continue in making more millions for themselves and family.

Impsbert smiling

[Habit7]

Petrochemical companies accuse NGC of conflict of interest
by Curtis Williams

The major downstream petrochemical companies have accused the National Gas Company (NGC) of a conflict of interest, putting hundreds of millions of dollars and 30,000 jobs at risk.

“Not only is the sector’s significant current contribution to the national economy at risk, in the form of hundreds of millions of dollars per year of direct revenue, over 25 per cent of country Forex, 1,500-plus highly skilled direct employees; not including thousands of other permanent employees, as well as over 30,000; more in the services and support sectors; this decision also imperils the future growth of the sector,” a letter signed by five Chief Executive Officers of Point Lisas Petrochemical companies read.


In a strongly worded letter to the Minister of Energy and Energy Industries Franklin Khan, a copy of which Guardian Media has obtained, the Chief Executive Officers of 24 plants said they are deeply disturbed by the revelation that the NGC is to take over control of the operations of Atlantic LNG’s Train 1.

It referred to two Business Guardian articles of Sunday, December 6 (NGC takes $300million gamble on Train 1) and Thursday 17th December (‘Train 1 or not ... NGC promises to meet contracted gas to

downstream”) and called for an urgent meeting with the Minister of Energy to fix the issue.

The letter read: “We are therefore deeply concerned by the NGC’s reported multimillion-dollar investment to maintain the operability of Train 1. This will substantially deepen the NGC’s role in the LNG industry and could create incentives to prioritize gas supply to its own investments, to the detriment of its clients. In effect, this appears to us as an unambiguous conflict of interest to the NGC’s primary mandate, making the NGC a competitor to its own customers in the Downstream. Furthermore, this decision comes in a period where the supply of economical gas is already under severe strain- and likely to remain so throughout 2021.”

Reached yesterday Energy Minister Franklin Khan said he has a meeting carded with the five CEOs and has promised to say more after.

“The letter was sent to me so I don’t know how you have a copy of it, but that’s the world now, there is nothing that is a secret. But you have the letter and you can see it is the CEOs of the top Petrochemical companies so it’s important and I will be meeting with them at noon today after which I will speak,” Khan told Guardian Media.

Chairman of the NGC Conrad Enill said the company would not be part of the meeting even though it was aware of the letter.

Asked about the NGC getting deeper involved in Atlantic he simply said the NGC has to implement government policy.

Enill, however, insisted that the NGC could not contractually short the downstream companies in favour of its interest in Atlantic since the contracts are binding and have minimum supply clauses with significant penalties for failure to meet those gas commitments.

The CEOs reminded Khan that as leaders of the largest Downstream petrochemical producers in Trinidad and Tobago they represent 24 plants, more than 30,000 direct and indirect employees and invested capital of over US$8billion and had noted with grave concern the recent reports regarding Atlantic’s Train 1 liquefied natural gas (LNG) processing facility.

“We are writing to request urgent clarification on gas supply implications for the National Gas Company’s (NGC) other customers in the Downstream,” the letter read.

According to the leading CEOs, the NGC’s primary role is the aggregation, purchase, sale, transmission and distribution of natural gas to the Downstream industries, alongside its investments in Downstream and Upstream production. In this position, the NGC enjoys a monopoly on gas supply to the Downstream sector, supported by its unique confidential gas pricing and allocation model.


It said while the NGC has committed to fulfilling its existing contractual obligations, this does not address the requirements of Downstream producers already operating with lower contractual volumes following several years of gas curtailments.

“These arrangements were a painful compromise, on the undertaking from the NGC that these producers would receive any additional gas volumes that subsequently became available. Nor does it address the requirements of Downstream producers in the progress of negotiating contract renewals.

The letter continued: “With the additional requirements of Train 1 of at least 250 mmscf/d and below-forecast Upstream production, what does this mean for the adequate supply of affordable gas to the Downstream producers? Also, given, that this volume represents the equivalent of supply to five (5) petrochemical plants employing 5 times the number of people we are concerned about the overall impact on the wider economy. In addition, such a large share of natural gas production allocated to a single commodity could increase the exposure risk for the country in the future.”

It said this is already a critical juncture for the Downstream sector. The impact of the pandemic on global commodity markets, layered on existing high gas prices and diminished global competitiveness, has created an existential threat for Trinidad and Tobago’s Downstream the CEOs noted.

They insisted that the Downstream could once again become an economic powerhouse for the country, with the right conditions and enabling environment and warned this appears to be a move in the opposite direction.

https://www.guardian.co.tt/news/petroch ... 51a65e7a0d

[DreamWeaver]

Foreshadowing of the collapse of the point lisas model?

[zoom rader]

Foreshadowing of the collapse of the point lisas model?

Yes we now an island of store clerks and waiters for 1%


Gone are Engineers, Techs, Operators

Thanks Red Government you all saved forex & Jobs

[Redman]

Is it not obvious that NGC, LNG and Pt Lisa’s need to evolve?

BP and She’ll supplying NGC with gas...
BP and Shell have ownership of the majority of theLNG complex, while supply LNG directly.
100% of the gas supplied to LNG comes directly from BP and Shell

BPand Shell have little assets in the PT Lisa’s complex.

Anyone here think that BP and Shell are above curtailing supply to those entities where they have little ownership and ensuring that their downstream assets are supplied?

Especially when the liability for curtailment is NGC s and not BP or Shells?

Anyone here feel that Big Oil don’t know what they doing?

Allyuh really believe that BP and Shell do not know that their prices put TNT into a swing producer bracket...at best?

[DreamWeaver]

Is it not obvious that NGC, LNG and Pt Lisa’s need to evolve?

BP and She’ll supplying NGC with gas...
BP and Shell have ownership of the majority of theLNG complex, while supply LNG directly.
100% of the gas supplied to LNG comes directly from BP and Shell

BPand Shell have little assets in the PT Lisa’s complex.

Anyone here think that BP and Shell are above curtailing supply to those entities where they have little ownership and ensuring that their downstream assets are supplied?

Especially when the liability for curtailment is NGC s and not BP or Shells?

Anyone here feel that Big Oil don’t know what they doing?

Allyuh really believe that BP and Shell do not know that their prices put TNT into a swing producer bracket...at best?

It was always going to be a conflict of interest for ngc to get involved with upstream and downstream companies while still claiming to be a fair midstream distributor. They've done it with atlantic, denovo and I believe a few other small scale upstreamers. It seems quite evident that their play is to let Point Lisas die while solidifying a better lng future. If their "better terms" contracts with atlantic (train 1 for now, the rest will follow when they are up for renewal) make up for all the money currently being made in Point Lisas, then they will definitely trade one for the other, especially if they can have shares in the company. The govt has no shareholdings in any downstream plants in point lisas if I recall correctly.

[De Dragon]

Is it not obvious that NGC, LNG and Pt Lisa’s need to evolve?

BP and She’ll supplying NGC with gas...
BP and Shell have ownership of the majority of theLNG complex, while supply LNG directly.
100% of the gas supplied to LNG comes directly from BP and Shell

BPand Shell have little assets in the PT Lisa’s complex.

Anyone here think that BP and Shell are above curtailing supply to those entities where they have little ownership and ensuring that their downstream assets are supplied?

Especially when the liability for curtailment is NGC s and not BP or Shells?

Anyone here feel that Big Oil don’t know what they doing?

Allyuh really believe that BP and Shell do not know that their prices put TNT into a swing producer bracket...at best?

It was always going to be a conflict of interest for ngc to get involved with upstream and downstream companies while still claiming to be a fair midstream distributor. They've done it with atlantic, denovo and I believe a few other small scale upstreamers. It seems quite evident that their play is to let Point Lisas die while solidifying a better lng future. If their "better terms" contracts with atlantic (train 1 for now, the rest will follow when they are up for renewal) make up for all the money currently being made in Point Lisas, then they will definitely trade one for the other, especially if they can have shares in the company. The govt has no shareholdings in any downstream plants in point lisas if I recall correctly.

They had in almost all (Tringen/Iscott/M1/M3/Fertrin), before the LFDRFD PNM mismanaged them to death, and then sold them to make a quick buck.
Now the fackery continues with starving the existing profitable ones of gas, while selling the majority to one company which controls the entire LNG value train, and which they only have 10% in one solitary plant. Pt. Lisas will surely die, thanks to the PNM.

[DreamWeaver]

Is it not obvious that NGC, LNG and Pt Lisa’s need to evolve?

BP and She’ll supplying NGC with gas...
BP and Shell have ownership of the majority of theLNG complex, while supply LNG directly.
100% of the gas supplied to LNG comes directly from BP and Shell

BPand Shell have little assets in the PT Lisa’s complex.

Anyone here think that BP and Shell are above curtailing supply to those entities where they have little ownership and ensuring that their downstream assets are supplied?

Especially when the liability for curtailment is NGC s and not BP or Shells?

Anyone here feel that Big Oil don’t know what they doing?

Allyuh really believe that BP and Shell do not know that their prices put TNT into a swing producer bracket...at best?

It was always going to be a conflict of interest for ngc to get involved with upstream and downstream companies while still claiming to be a fair midstream distributor. They've done it with atlantic, denovo and I believe a few other small scale upstreamers. It seems quite evident that their play is to let Point Lisas die while solidifying a better lng future. If their "better terms" contracts with atlantic (train 1 for now, the rest will follow when they are up for renewal) make up for all the money currently being made in Point Lisas, then they will definitely trade one for the other, especially if they can have shares in the company. The govt has no shareholdings in any downstream plants in point lisas if I recall correctly.

They had in almost all (Tringen/Iscott/M1/M3/Fertrin), before the LFDRFD PNM mismanaged them to death, and then sold them to make a quick buck.
Now the fackery continues with starving the existing profitable ones of gas, while selling the majority to one company which controls the entire LNG value train, and which they only have 10% in one solitary plant. Pt. Lisas will surely die, thanks to the PNM.

Actually you are quite right that several past govts had ownership of several plants years ago. When the commodity prices fell, the govt were seeing losses and their short term thinking at the time resulted in them selling assets that could have easily made back profits when commodity prices swung upwards. Thats how ammonia and methanol plants operate. Govts have very little understanding how businesses actually work. They seem to think there needs to be constant profits or it makes no sense to operate. Businesses have ebbs and flows and it is cyclic. (Dont get me started on Petrotrin, that closure smelled more like a cover up tbh)
Regardless of all that, there is the possibility that all the Point Lisas plants' gas contract renewals are being deliberately made harder to make the plants unprofitable to the point where the owners are willing call it quits and close up their plants (as we are currently seeing). This way, the ngc would not have a binding contract with these plants and can then use their gas as they see fit. If I recall correctly, mhtl is one such unfortunate client of the ngc. I believe all their methanol plants dont have a gas contract so when train 1 needs gas, it would be pretty easy to just cut them off and send to train 1. Aside from them, if you are aware of any other clients that are still negotiating, feel free to share. I know Nutrien called it quits with O3, Yara called it quits with their first plant and Methanex called it quits with Titan. Seems to me that the ngc is freeing up gas for train 1 as required

[De Dragon]

Is it not obvious that NGC, LNG and Pt Lisa’s need to evolve?

BP and She’ll supplying NGC with gas...
BP and Shell have ownership of the majority of theLNG complex, while supply LNG directly.
100% of the gas supplied to LNG comes directly from BP and Shell

BPand Shell have little assets in the PT Lisa’s complex.

Anyone here think that BP and Shell are above curtailing supply to those entities where they have little ownership and ensuring that their downstream assets are supplied?

Especially when the liability for curtailment is NGC s and not BP or Shells?

Anyone here feel that Big Oil don’t know what they doing?

Allyuh really believe that BP and Shell do not know that their prices put TNT into a swing producer bracket...at best?

It was always going to be a conflict of interest for ngc to get involved with upstream and downstream companies while still claiming to be a fair midstream distributor. They've done it with atlantic, denovo and I believe a few other small scale upstreamers. It seems quite evident that their play is to let Point Lisas die while solidifying a better lng future. If their "better terms" contracts with atlantic (train 1 for now, the rest will follow when they are up for renewal) make up for all the money currently being made in Point Lisas, then they will definitely trade one for the other, especially if they can have shares in the company. The govt has no shareholdings in any downstream plants in point lisas if I recall correctly.

They had in almost all (Tringen/Iscott/M1/M3/Fertrin), before the LFDRFD PNM mismanaged them to death, and then sold them to make a quick buck.
Now the fackery continues with starving the existing profitable ones of gas, while selling the majority to one company which controls the entire LNG value train, and which they only have 10% in one solitary plant. Pt. Lisas will surely die, thanks to the PNM.

Actually you are quite right that several past govts had ownership of several plants years ago. When the commodity prices fell, the govt were seeing losses and their short term thinking at the time resulted in them selling assets that could have easily made back profits when commodity prices swung upwards. Thats how ammonia and methanol plants operate. Govts have very little understanding how businesses actually work. They seem to think there needs to be constant profits or it makes no sense to operate. Businesses have ebbs and flows and it is cyclic. (Dont get me started on Petrotrin, that closure smelled more like a cover up tbh)
Regardless of all that, there is the possibility that all the Point Lisas plants' gas contract renewals are being deliberately made harder to make the plants unprofitable to the point where the owners are willing call it quits and close up their plants (as we are currently seeing). This way, the ngc would not have a binding contract with these plants and can then use their gas as they see fit. If I recall correctly, mhtl is one such unfortunate client of the ngc. I believe all their methanol plants dont have a gas contract so when train 1 needs gas, it would be pretty easy to just cut them off and send to train 1. Aside from them, if you are aware of any other clients that are still negotiating, feel free to share. I know Nutrien called it quits with O3, Yara called it quits with their first plant and Methanex called it quits with Titan. Seems to me that the ngc is freeing up gas for train 1 as required

Any trainee on any process plant in Pt. Lisas could tell you the markets for ALL commodities manufactured there are cyclical, and you need to ride out the inevitable downturns. Atlas' gas contract is up for renegotiation in 3 years or so, so you know that dance has started already. Almost every single plant at Pt. Lisas is unencumbered so had the LFDRFD PNM been smarter,and had the ability to run even a parlour, they would have been rolling in money generated by those plants.

[Redman]

I guess there were no trainees in PTL when excess dividends were drawn from NGC annually even after the cyclical nature of the industry was stamped all our faces when energy prices tanked 2014.
All 16B worth.
At a time when GORTT revenue was the highest and deficits running.
How would that cash have supported the Energy complex in this part of the cycle.?

but yes its all PNM fault....because NGC had strong energy markets and excess cash in order to navigate the issues that come to maturity or expiration post 2015.


We are where we are- stuck between BP Shell directing gas to their interest with zero liability for curtailment and problematic outlook for the commodities.

[De Dragon]

I guess there were no trainees in PTL when excess dividends were drawn from NGC annually even after the cyclical nature of the industry was stamped all our faces when energy prices tanked 2014.
All 16B worth.
At a time when GORTT revenue was the highest and deficits running.
How would that cash have supported the Energy complex in this part of the cycle.?

but yes its all PNM fault....because NGC had strong energy markets and excess cash in order to navigate the issues that come to maturity or expiration post 2015.


We are where we are- stuck between BP Shell directing gas to their interest with zero liability for curtailment and problematic outlook for the commodities.

Vs. how much the LFDRFD PNM pissed away for decades? We could play this all day, but the simple fact is that the LFDRFD PNM, led by "negotiators" JUHN Scarfy and Goebbels Young have meddled in the NGC/Upstreamers business to the severe detriment to Pt. Lisas.
Now the LFDRFD PNM has been outmaneuvered and outfoxed AGAIN, in agreeing to pay for the entire TAR of Train 1.
The folly and sheer laziness of not awarding and encouraging additional exploration blocks is starting to make itself felt, and the ham fisted LFDRFD, like you, seem to think that any solution cannot involve BOTH Pt. Lisas and LNG existing together.
Also, I never said the LFDRFD PNM was solely responsible, but they do bear the brunt of that responsibility having been in control of our energy reserves and policies for so long, so your harping on 16B, when HUNDREDS of BILLIONS was pissed away, is just being facetious and biased. Again you're trying to convince people who know better that all of our problems were confined to 2010-2015 which only die hard, red until dead LFDRFD PNM sheep like you, and Habit7 seem to actually believe

[DreamWeaver]

https://www.tv6tnt.com/news/7pmnews/ene ... 5e23b.html

Franklin Khan hasn't done himself any favours with this interview. Franklin says "Due to Covid, the demand for both ammonia and methanol has decreased by almost 50%."

It's true that both products suffered badly in the initial months but they have rebounded and are on the upward trend. Hence why Methanex was hoping to conclude the gas negotiations to get Titan back online. A simple google search will show methanol doing so well that prices are well over US$400 a ton (As of December 2020/January 2021) and the demand is about the average demand as 2019.
https://www.methanol.org/methanol-price-supply-demand/

Methanex, along with any other of the plant owners, knows that if we don't supply the product, someone else will jump in the fill the supply gap and their business, and by extension this country, will lose out.

Take ammonia for example:
https://www.marketwatch.com/press-relea ... 14?tesla=y

Companies are pushing for green ammonia plants and a growth rate of more than 53.90% over the forecast period 2020-2027 is expected. (I could go more into the renewable ammonia and methanol plants but let's just say we're screwed when those turn out cheaper than natgas)

The commodities have recovered but the plants here are not restarting. Eventually, if not already, one of the newer foreign plants will start supplying the customers with methanol and ammonia. Don't be surprised if it even turns out to be the very same plants owners with plants here because Nutrien, Yara, MHTL and Methanex all have plants in other countries in production and under construction. Mittal is a prime example of what these other companies may do. Close up shop here and focus on their foreign assets to meet demands of their customers.

The politicians are playing a political game that will not end well for the people of this country. Mark my words, more plants closures are coming

[De Dragon]

^^^
The end of Pt. Lisas is near at hand, thanks to the stellar efforts of JUHN Scarfy, Goebbels Young and Guy Smiley.

[Redman]

like you, seem to think that any solution cannot involve BOTH Pt. Lisas and LNG existing together.

As I said earlier we need both....it isn't hard to read before you blather.

And again you going back 20 years and blathering about PNM management....yet happily ignoring the real quantified draw down of cash in the early stages of this exact crisis up in 2014.

the PP didn't know the contracts upstream were about to expire?
They didn't know the contracts downstream were
Expiring?

2010-2014 was the last time NGC was cashed up....what happened to the money?

-NGC failed to secure supply beyond 2018
-PTL plants were curtailed and on month to month since 2011.
-NGC had liabilities as a result of these curtailment that were left unresolved.
What did they do with the Poten analysis?

All of this was ignored while the cash was.drawn down.

Dem is the facts.

[De Dragon]

like you, seem to think that any solution cannot involve BOTH Pt. Lisas and LNG existing together.

As I said earlier we need both....it isn't hard to read before you blather.

And again you going back 20 years and blathering about PNM management....yet happily ignoring the real quantified draw down of cash in the early stages of this exact crisis up in 2014.

the PP didn't know the contracts upstream were about to expire?
They didn't know the contracts downstream were
Expiring?

2010-2014 was the last time NGC was cashed up....what happened to the money?

-NGC failed to secure supply beyond 2018
-PTL plants were curtailed and on month to month since 2011.
-NGC had liabilities as a result of these curtailment that were left unresolved.
What did they do with the Poten analysis?

All of this was ignored while the cash was.drawn down.

Dem is the facts.

Yada MC Yada
The LFDRFD PNM didn't also know these things? Isn't the opposition supposed to be an alternative? Are you really positing that the LFDRFD PNM "suddenly" found themselves in a crisis? A crisis which years into their SECOND term still persists? WTF were they doing for 5 years?
You're attempting to refute my argument, but you're the same one talking about where optimally the gas should go, knowing fully well it can't go to both at present, and that the LFDRFD PNM's thimb in arse approach for the last 6 years is the cause?