Petrotrin refinery shut down

[De Dragon]

Keeping the refinery open would have cost what?

With the 2018-2020 hindsight that dumb and dumber mis applying-anyone think that the 2B losses would have turned into a profit?

So the union would be fighting downsizing striking and working slow,
Oil price and Covid would have done their dance,
Countries would have reduced demand for refinery output- as did the local market.

The components of Heritage and Paria would still be underperforming and losing money.

Apparently close to $30M in LFDRFD PNM commissioned reports laid out exactly how it could have been profitable, WITH the present workforce, but LFDRFD PNM people like to selectively choose studies.

The Solomon report ToR did not include whether to close the refinery it was as you posted a WFO.

The Lashley report was entirely useless.

I've not seen Mckinsey s report.Have you?
Link it.


The union would have struck...cuz we both agree they wanted the refinery....maybe at the expense of their workers.
The bonds were maturing ...time being the problem.
Oil prices were a mess.
Demand a mess
Covid running rampant

Efficiency and margins would have been decimated as a result of the above.

Yet you guys sure it would have worked .... impressive.

Where is the union now?
Bond maturity was well known
Prices were still stable
Demand was stabilizing
Covid? Nah you eh serious? When the refinery closed, Covid was an issue?
You cannot commission multiple studies NONE of which advised closure, then ignore them, shut the refinery entirely, and then be unable to sell it two years later.

[Redman]

Maybe unable....maybe ...unwilling.
Go a few post back...we hind sighting

I haven't seen the Mckinsey report. So let's assume they said keep it open.
Have you seen the report?

Lashley was a wft.

Solo says it would work if the union agrees to work towards reducing numbers as recommended.


So let's say Mckinsey says it could stay open.
But we don't know under what conditions.

Staying open with all of the above would have resulted in more losses while it working out and a loss of time.

The bond refi required a mechanism to show cash flow to repay,time to set up and settle down.
With the work over push that happened... production increased somewhat.
The refinery would not have shown that as it was stabilized.
Not in the timeframe they had.

Default has impact for decades on ALL current and future debt.

Not an easy matrix.

[De Dragon]

Maybe unable....maybe ...unwilling.
Go a few post back...we hind sighting

I haven't seen the Mckinsey report. So let's assume they said keep it open.
Have you seen the report?

Lashley was a wft.

Solo says it would work if the union agrees to work towards reducing numbers as recommended.


So let's say Mckinsey says it could stay open.
But we don't know under what conditions.

Staying open with all of the above would have resulted in more losses while it working out and a loss of time.

The bond refi required a mechanism to show cash flow to repay,time to set up and settle down.
With the work over push that happened... production increased somewhat.
The refinery would not have shown that as it was stabilized.
Not in the timeframe they had.

Default has impact for decades on ALL current and future debt.

Not an easy matrix.

Solomon report said the cutting of staff wasn't mandatory, but the union needed to be brought on board in terms of efficiency etc. The threat of the union was a red herring, as now everyone could see the LFDRFD PNM doesn't give a damn, so the position of the union is considerably weakened now.

[Redman]

Solomon report said the cutting of staff wasn't mandatory, but the union needed to be brought on board in terms of efficiency etc. The threat of the union was a red herring, as now everyone could see the LFDRFD PNM doesn't give a damn, so the position of the union is considerably weakened now.

So youre saying that Solomon said that the refinery can be run with staff levels as they are?

Tell us where in that report it says so...
You hitting the rum early.

[De Dragon]

Solomon report said the cutting of staff wasn't mandatory, but the union needed to be brought on board in terms of efficiency etc. The threat of the union was a red herring, as now everyone could see the LFDRFD PNM doesn't give a damn, so the position of the union is considerably weakened now.

So youre saying that Solomon said that the refinery can be run with staff levels as they are?

Tell us where in that report it says so...
You hitting the rum early.

And you smoking sheit early


S&A al­so stat­ed, “While many com­pa­nies at­tempt to op­ti­mise their work­forces sim­ply by re­duc­ing staffing lev­els or im­ple­ment­ing a new or­gan­i­sa­tion­al struc­ture, Solomon has ob­served over the years that the most prof­itable busi­ness­es are ac­tu­al­ly fo­cused on max­imis­ing or­gan­i­sa­tion­al ef­fec­tive­ness and fi­nan­cial per­for­mance, not just min­imis­ing the num­ber of peo­ple.”

S&A stat­ed that its pro­posed or­gan­i­sa­tion­al struc­ture and staffing tar­gets would equip Petrotrin with the nec­es­sary re­sources to “safe­ly, ef­fec­tive­ly and ef­fi­cient­ly op­er­ate and main­tain the busi­ness as well as cap­ture sig­nif­i­cant val­ue that’s cur­rent­ly be­ing lost.”

[Redman]

Well you’re quoting from the introduction.

You can’t take the introduction on pg 6 as an assimilation of the whole 650 page document.

Well it’s obvious that YOU can.

Try the Staffing Optimization Recommendations.
Their recommendations include staff cuts.

[gastly369]

Bump... XD...

i is like the only person that remember that it have the av drilling fake oil matter that needed to get prosecuted.
place split up, and keith scotland get put as a board member, to be in a file/document controlling position. the personal lawyer of the man that called nazim baksh and vidya sookdeo directly from foreign the night the fake oil story buss.

and where there is smoke, there will be fire, especially in an oil refinery. i doubt the av drilling was the only one, there might be more that could be discovered if they get audited. but those files may not exist any more.

Michael Quamina, JUHN's personal lawyer was appointed Chairman of TPH, so AV Drilling safe like Selassie I briefcase.

[wing]

https://www.cnc3.co.tt/patriotics-new-b ... -deadline/

[death365]

just 1 or 2 or 3 years more waiting for them,

u doh just get financing so... maybe a year to a year and half to secure and deliver. same time to re- certify/ check and adjust systems to code. then a phased start up, plant by plant.

[De Dragon]

just 1 or 2 or 3 years more waiting for them,

u doh just get financing so... maybe a year to a year and half to secure and deliver. same time to re- certify/ check and adjust systems to code. then a phased start up, plant by plant.

Doh beat up, Habit7 say it eh costing we nuttin....................

[Habit7]

just 1 or 2 or 3 years more waiting for them,

u doh just get financing so... maybe a year to a year and half to secure and deliver. same time to re- certify/ check and adjust systems to code. then a phased start up, plant by plant.

Doh beat up, Habit7 say it eh costing we nuttin....................

So because I call you out on your lie that "millions spent" you still toting? Anyways, keep attacking, facts are not your forte.

[De Dragon]

just 1 or 2 or 3 years more waiting for them,

u doh just get financing so... maybe a year to a year and half to secure and deliver. same time to re- certify/ check and adjust systems to code. then a phased start up, plant by plant.

Doh beat up, Habit7 say it eh costing we nuttin....................

So because I call you out on your lie that "millions spent" you still toting? Anyways, keep attacking, facts are not your forte.

Econ certainly isn't yours if you don't understand that millions of dollars are being lost due to the refinery's closure, bungled sale, and now back to square one actions of the LFDRFD PNM.

[Habit7]

just 1 or 2 or 3 years more waiting for them,

u doh just get financing so... maybe a year to a year and half to secure and deliver. same time to re- certify/ check and adjust systems to code. then a phased start up, plant by plant.

Doh beat up, Habit7 say it eh costing we nuttin....................

So because I call you out on your lie that "millions spent" you still toting? Anyways, keep attacking, facts are not your forte.

Econ certainly isn't yours if you don't understand that millions of dollars are being lost due to the refinery's closure, bungled sale, and now back to square one actions of the LFDRFD PNM.

Well, I don't know if it dyslexia, illiteracy or you just plain lying. You said "millions spent" now you backpedalling to "millions of dollars are being lost" as if the billions in losses while the refinery was open wasn't a concern.

[sMASH]

just 1 or 2 or 3 years more waiting for them,

u doh just get financing so... maybe a year to a year and half to secure and deliver. same time to re- certify/ check and adjust systems to code. then a phased start up, plant by plant.

Doh beat up, Habit7 say it eh costing we nuttin....................

So because I call you out on your lie that "millions spent" you still toting? Anyways, keep attacking, facts are not your forte.

Econ certainly isn't yours if you don't understand that millions of dollars are being lost due to the refinery's closure, bungled sale, and now back to square one actions of the LFDRFD PNM.

Well, I don't know if it dyslexia, illiteracy or you just plain lying. You said "millions spent" now you backpedalling to "millions of dollars are being lost" as if the billions in losses while the refinery was open wasn't a concern.

and the economy of the southern half of trinidad since it got taken down...
the over spending was being reigned in, some workers were willing for salary cuts, some others would have taken a vsep.

but, too many birds that could have been killed with that one stone, when it shut down... and bam, party done.

[Habit7]

I live in South Trinidad, and the sky isn't falling here. The groceries and malls are doing well. At one point Gulf City was looking bad but it is now doing better than Trincity Mall. If the govt didn't reign in on the refinery in 2018, 2020 drop in demand certainly would have. The refinery is liability the govt cannot carry, let the private sector take that risk. Heritage and Paria are doing well and providing sustainable growth for South Trinidad. 6 yrs of billions of losses, with the most overstaffed NOC in the region, crying that if you touch it the economy will fall, is not a foundation. If South was dependant on one indebted, unprofitable state company, then that was something that needed to change anyway.

Factbox: Oil refiners shut plants as demand losses may never return
By Reuters Staff

4 MIN READ


(Reuters) - Oil refiners are permanently closing processing plants in Asia and North America and facilities in Europe could be next because of uncertain prospects for a recovery in fuel demand after the coronavirus pandemic cut consumption.


FILE PHOTO: Exxon Mobil Corp’s Altona refinery is seen on the outskirts of Melbourne, Australia June 28, 2020. REUTERS/Sonali Paul
The pandemic initially cut global fuel demand 30% and refiners temporarily idled plants. But consumption has not returned to pre-pandemic levels and lower travel may be here to stay, leading to the possibility of plants shutting down permanently.

Here are some of the companies/refineries involved:

UNITED STATES
- Royal Dutch Shell RDSa.L said it was closing its refinery in Convent, Louisiana, the largest such U.S. facility. The shutdown will occur in November after Shell failed to find a buyer. Shell expects to sell all but six refineries and chemical plants globally and is considering closing facilities it cannot sell.

- Marathon Petroleum MPC.N, the largest U.S. refiner by volume, plans to permanently halt processing at refineries in Martinez, California, and Gallup, New Mexico.

SINGAPORE
- Shell will halve crude processing capacity and cut jobs at its Pulau Bukom oil refinery in Singapore as part of an overhaul to reduce the company’s carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions to net zero by 2050.

JAPAN
- Japan’s biggest refiner, Eneos Corp, permanently shut the 115,000 barrels-per-day (bpd) crude distillation unit at its Osaka refinery on September 30 as planned.

AUSTRALIA & NEW ZEALAND

- Exxon Mobil Corp XOM.N is urging the Australian government to start releasing aid to the country's oil refineries by January after a decision by BP early in November to shut the nation's biggest refinery.

- BP plc BP.L plans to stop producing fuel in Australia and will convert its loss-making Kwinana oil refinery, the biggest of the country's four, into a fuel import terminal because of tough competition in Asia.

- Australia has proposed offering incentives worth A$2.3 billion ($1.68 billion) over 10 years to keep the country’s four remaining oil refineries open and said it would invest in building fuel storage as part of a long-term fuel security plan.

- Viva Energy has said that a full shutdown of its refinery in Victoria was on the cards given the dire long-term outlook for the industry.

ADVERTISEMENT


- Refining NZ NZR.NZ said in late June it was considering shutting New Zealand's only oil refinery and turning it into a fuel import terminal, but first would reduce its operations to cut costs and break even into 2021.

PHILIPPINES
- Royal Dutch Shell RDSa.L will permanently shut its 110,000-barrel-per-day Tabangao facility in Philippines' Batangas province, one of only two oil refineries in the country.

EUROPE
- Gunvor Group said in June it was considering mothballing its 110,000 bpd refinery in Antwerp as COVID-19 hurt the plant’s economic viability.

- Petroineos said on Nov. 10 that it plans to mothball nearly half of its 200,000 barrel-per-day refinery at Grangemouth in Scotland.

- French oil major Total TOTF.PA said in September it was investing more than 500 million euros ($583 million) to convert its Grandpuits, France, refinery into a zero-crude platform for biofuels and bioplastics.

- Energy consultancy Wood Mackenzie put plants in Netherlands, France, and Scotland on a list of potential closures.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-glob ... SKBN27R0AI

Nostalgia doesn't keep refineries open. Had we not closed the refinery in 2018, 2020 would have been an ugly crash for the refinery with employees less likely to get the good remunerations they got in 2018.

[gastly369]

Wahhh going on in moruga fields boiiiii... Anybody hAVe any news

[De Dragon]

He'll deny it to the last, but Habit7 would not be so generous if any other GORTT had shut down the refinery, mangled the sale, and had to re-tender

[sMASH]

* Rowley selling refineries? *
refinery restart gud!
*Rowley say refinery too expensive?* running refineries bad!

Shutting down the refinery and making so many people unemployed is what set us up to be so stark now.

They had no cushion.
U watching malls, malls is just to launder cocaine.

Sando and marabella got scant, foot traffic reduced, few stores closed people let go.

When they use up they reserves from that, then they have to draw on the state for the covid.


But anyway, my opinion.
Dont mind the govt fightng to get sumbody to restart the refinery, or at least putting on that good show... Even in the pandemic..

I live in South Trinidad, and the sky isn't falling here. The groceries and malls are doing well. At one point Gulf City was looking bad but it is now doing better than Trincity Mall. If the govt didn't reign in on the refinery in 2018, 2020 drop in demand certainly would have. The refinery is liability the govt cannot carry, let the private sector take that risk. Heritage and Paria are doing well and providing sustainable growth for South Trinidad. 6 yrs of billions of losses, with the most overstaffed NOC in the region, crying that if you touch it the economy will fall, is not a foundation. If South was dependant on one indebted, unprofitable state company, then that was something that needed to change anyway.

Factbox: Oil refiners shut plants as demand losses may never return
By Reuters Staff

4 MIN READ


(Reuters) - Oil refiners are permanently closing processing plants in Asia and North America and facilities in Europe could be next because of uncertain prospects for a recovery in fuel demand after the coronavirus pandemic cut consumption.


FILE PHOTO: Exxon Mobil Corp’s Altona refinery is seen on the outskirts of Melbourne, Australia June 28, 2020. REUTERS/Sonali Paul
The pandemic initially cut global fuel demand 30% and refiners temporarily idled plants. But consumption has not returned to pre-pandemic levels and lower travel may be here to stay, leading to the possibility of plants shutting down permanently.

Here are some of the companies/refineries involved:

UNITED STATES
- Royal Dutch Shell RDSa.L said it was closing its refinery in Convent, Louisiana, the largest such U.S. facility. The shutdown will occur in November after Shell failed to find a buyer. Shell expects to sell all but six refineries and chemical plants globally and is considering closing facilities it cannot sell.

- Marathon Petroleum MPC.N, the largest U.S. refiner by volume, plans to permanently halt processing at refineries in Martinez, California, and Gallup, New Mexico.

SINGAPORE
- Shell will halve crude processing capacity and cut jobs at its Pulau Bukom oil refinery in Singapore as part of an overhaul to reduce the company’s carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions to net zero by 2050.

JAPAN
- Japan’s biggest refiner, Eneos Corp, permanently shut the 115,000 barrels-per-day (bpd) crude distillation unit at its Osaka refinery on September 30 as planned.

AUSTRALIA & NEW ZEALAND

- Exxon Mobil Corp XOM.N is urging the Australian government to start releasing aid to the country's oil refineries by January after a decision by BP early in November to shut the nation's biggest refinery.

- BP plc BP.L plans to stop producing fuel in Australia and will convert its loss-making Kwinana oil refinery, the biggest of the country's four, into a fuel import terminal because of tough competition in Asia.

- Australia has proposed offering incentives worth A$2.3 billion ($1.68 billion) over 10 years to keep the country’s four remaining oil refineries open and said it would invest in building fuel storage as part of a long-term fuel security plan.

- Viva Energy has said that a full shutdown of its refinery in Victoria was on the cards given the dire long-term outlook for the industry.

ADVERTISEMENT


- Refining NZ NZR.NZ said in late June it was considering shutting New Zealand's only oil refinery and turning it into a fuel import terminal, but first would reduce its operations to cut costs and break even into 2021.

PHILIPPINES
- Royal Dutch Shell RDSa.L will permanently shut its 110,000-barrel-per-day Tabangao facility in Philippines' Batangas province, one of only two oil refineries in the country.

EUROPE
- Gunvor Group said in June it was considering mothballing its 110,000 bpd refinery in Antwerp as COVID-19 hurt the plant’s economic viability.

- Petroineos said on Nov. 10 that it plans to mothball nearly half of its 200,000 barrel-per-day refinery at Grangemouth in Scotland.

- French oil major Total TOTF.PA said in September it was investing more than 500 million euros ($583 million) to convert its Grandpuits, France, refinery into a zero-crude platform for biofuels and bioplastics.

- Energy consultancy Wood Mackenzie put plants in Netherlands, France, and Scotland on a list of potential closures.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-glob ... SKBN27R0AI

Nostalgia doesn't keep refineries open. Had we not closed the refinery in 2018, 2020 would have been an ugly crash for the refinery with employees less likely to get the good remunerations they got in 2018.

[Redman]

Allyuh act as if we not impacted by global conditions.

Smash say run it like CEPEP but then claims to understand s what it takes to keep plants going.

Like a refinery is any different.

Except of course there would have been no one to sell the output to, while operating under constrained conditions on all fronts.

The losses would have been record breaking.

Anyhow talk is that the union has real backing now and there are multiple local and foreign entities that waiting for the second round to start.

[Habit7]

It is easy to be an armchair politician. Don't reform Petrotrin, don't eliminate subsidies, don't liberalise gas stations, don't implement property tax, but spend spend spend on what appears important to you. Very soon you run out of money, you are voted out but at least your supporters would claim that you took care of them while the money lasted.

[sMASH]

its easy to gargle rowley 8balls and push the narrative. when rowley say he not shutting down petrotrin, nobody was saying it have to shut down, that is the wrong move. in fact, that is what he campaigned on. GRATE IZ DE PNM!!!

[Habit7]

its easy to gargle rowley 8balls and push the narrative. when rowley say he not shutting down petrotrin, nobody was saying it have to shut down, that is the wrong move. in fact, that is what he campaigned on. GRATE IZ DE PNM!!!

I know you are impervious to facts so this is for the benefit of the other readers. Petrotrin has not shut down, it a subsidiary of Trinidad Petroleum Holdings Company Ltd.
To say that nobody was saying it had to shut down is another lie. Petrotrin Pres. Khalid Hassanal blamed the shale gas revolution for the decision to reduce throughput at the refinery and said that, "the decision was an attempt to limit the company’s losses at its Point a Pierre refinery and to avoid going out of business like two other Caribbean refineries." https://www.ogj.com/refining-processing ... inery-runs
Another quote from a newspaper was that, "The Government has some very difficult decisions to make. If it does nothing as a result of political expediency and its fear of the union's reaction, Petrotrin faces a slow death during which it could be a huge burden on taxpayers." https://www.guardian.co.tt/article-6.2. ... 5f33f4caad
I have a quote too from Kevin Ramnarine in the Senate stating the risk of closure but I don't have the time or energy to research it right now.

I don't know what you are claiming he campaigned on but I am sure like the other points you are wrong about that too.

[sMASH]

Keep ssying petrotrin not shut down to the thousands that not working on thst site no more.

A rose by any other word will chook u just as hard.

[De Dragon]

Keep ssying petrotrin not shut down to the thousands that not working on thst site no more.

A rose by any other word will chook u just as hard.

Habit7 resorting to semantics as usual, just like his asinine "eet eh cossin we nuttin tuh keep de refinary dong" dotishness.

[sMASH]

Keep ssying petrotrin not shut down to the thousands that not working on thst site no more.

A rose by any other word will chook u just as hard.

Habit7 resorting to semantics as usual, just like his asinine "eet eh cossin we nuttin tuh keep de refinary dong" dotishness.

aside from all the upkeep costs, and on a site like the refinery and the bungalows will be significant, it have a mortgage on it.... imagine buying a car on terms, and have it pack up in the garage...

[De Dragon]

Keep ssying petrotrin not shut down to the thousands that not working on thst site no more.

A rose by any other word will chook u just as hard.

Habit7 resorting to semantics as usual, just like his asinine "eet eh cossin we nuttin tuh keep de refinary dong" dotishness.

aside from all the upkeep costs, and on a site like the refinery and the bungalows will be significant, it have a mortgage on it.... imagine buying a car on terms, and have it pack up in the garage...

Amalgamated gih dem ah bligh according to DotishHabit7

[Redman]

Keep ssying petrotrin not shut down to the thousands that not working on thst site no more.

A rose by any other word will chook u just as hard.

Habit7 resorting to semantics as usual, just like his asinine "eet eh cossin we nuttin tuh keep de refinary dong" dotishness.

So what would it have cost to keep it open?

Bring some numbers and info.

[sMASH]

Keep ssying petrotrin not shut down to the thousands that not working on thst site no more.

A rose by any other word will chook u just as hard.

Habit7 resorting to semantics as usual, just like his asinine "eet eh cossin we nuttin tuh keep de refinary dong" dotishness.

So what would it have cost to keep it open?

Bring some numbers and info.

10's of thousands of employed people, bitumen u didnt have to buy, maintenance of the water courses and lands controlled by them, and the position of having an operational refinery able to bid for guyana crude

[Redman]

At any cost?

If we couldn't be profitable refining oil from South Trinidad...we would be profitable refining oil from Guyana?

Guyana producing enough today to keep the refinery with this super profitable oil you depending on?

We have CEPEP maintaining without the multi billion loss.
you said run it like CEPEP...good idea.

You really sound like Dragon.

[sMASH]

At any cost?

If we couldn't be profitable refining oil from South Trinidad...we would be profitable refining oil from Guyana?

Guyana producing enough today to keep the refinery with this super profitable oil you depending on?

We have CEPEP maintaining without the multi billion loss.
you said run it like CEPEP...good idea.

You really sound like Dragon.

not at any cost. u still had to rationalize petrotrin and trim the fat, but over time.
minister hinds as well had thought guyana oil was a good source to resume operations of the refinery. then u have suriname lower down. if its not enough, it would at least contribute to lower cost. the original intention was for it to be a regional refinery.

if u have to make wuk, make it in a way that u can satisfy some needs.