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Petrotrin refinery shut down

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Allergic2BunnyEars
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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » October 30th, 2020, 3:26 pm

elec2020 wrote:
Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:As stated earlier. The restructuring aimed at improving oil extraction. Reducing the need for importing oil for the refinery. So the recent demand for the refinery is driven by the fact that less oil needs to be imported. With lower production costs (it is fair to assume that locally produced crude from next door is cheaper than foreign crude on tankers) the refinery is more profitable than it was before.


Refinery sale has nothing to do with heritage producing more oil. They aren’t producing significantly more barrels of oil. Less most likely. So that does not stand up to scrutiny. Refinery will run on majority imported crude. Volume sold locally is part of the picture. Ask how much it is sold for regionally and internationally before you say it is a net consumer. Read more. Petrotrin issue was that loan which it used to pay.


"Petrotrin currently produces 40,000 barrels per day (bpd) of crude, while its refinery operates at a capacity of 140,000 bpd, which requires the crude supplies to be imported. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-refi ... SKCN1LD2NG)"

"At present oil production is at a low of approximately 66,000 barrels per day, with two-thirds of the production coming from state owned company Heritage Petroleum Company" (https://www.opm.gov.tt/pms-feature-addr ... onference/)

"Khan: TT Oil Production to Reach 90,000 bpd in 2020 (http://azpnews.com/khan-tt-oil-producti ... d-in-2020/)"

So actually, according to Khan, oil production should increase (2020 may be ambitious given the current pandemic though). Additionally, as I said before, the demand for the refinery would be driven by the promise of lower production costs. The refinery was bogged down by high production costs due to the need to import 100,000 barrels of oil per day (around that time oil prices floated between 50 and 60 US i believe so thats $5 million US a day just to purchase the oil, we ain't even talk about shipping and handling, transport from the ports to the refinery, etc). Now if the government does in fact reach to 90,000 barrels per day, the owner(s) of the refinery would only need to source 50,000 barrels of oil per day. so essentially that aspect of their production costs got cut in half. Which group interested in refining oil would not readily jump on that wagon. Again please use some critical thinking instead of just heresay and what your gut tells you.


Should. Sure. What’s the actual production figure when refinery was out for bids? Why would someone bid based on what oil production *should* be vs actual with zero control over local production? You really going to quote Franklin khan and believe him? Talk to people who actually at heritage.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » October 30th, 2020, 3:29 pm

elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
The_Honourable wrote:Can't transfer title as in a legal issue or the government doesn't want to give up the refinery (or the holding company Guaracara Refining Company under TPHL to Patriotic?)

Only took two years of lost Forex, refinery employees livelihoods and fence line communities detriment to realize that? Grate is the PNM! :roll:


Wasn't it reported that under the existing model petrotrin was essentially a net user of foreign exchange as a significant amount of barrels of oil needed to be imported for the refinery. The goal of the restructuring was to increase oil extraction to limit how much oil had to be imported for the refinery. (Cue name calling and unfounded statements)

The refined goods they sold would have offset the crude price.


As Redman showed. If most being consumed pocally. U spending forex and not getting back forex. Hence u a net consumer of for ex.

Hence the word offset. The argument cannot be that processing a raw material into higher value end products results in a loss just by itself, rather it points to burdensome debt, inefficiency, too many employees and the attendant costs, or a failed business model, none of which are good btw.


How can it be offset? It is a net consumer of foreign exchange. Okay. Let me break it down like this. The refinery needed 140,000 barrels per day while Petrotrin only produced 40,000. So 100,000 barrels per day had to be imported. Lets say the oil price in 2018 was 50 US. Thats 5 million US that was spent a day on the refinery. It is stated that most of that product was sold locally. So you spent a lot of US to produce the product and sold most of it in exchange for TT. If that is the case then you are a net consumer of foreign exchange (I highly doubt that even at marked up prices the refinery made up back that 5 million US in exports from the remaining products left after satisfying local demand)


Also do you think they pay for local crude in ttd?

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Hwells » October 30th, 2020, 3:31 pm

something the rowley said months ago maybe a year, he as head of cabinet was authorising the purchased of oil for the refinery knowingly the be purchased at a higher price than the price of the refined products coming out. knowingly making a loss.
A loss meaning loseing money left right and centre, this was one of his reasoning for closing down the plant.

Of course international trade, ie purchases and sales are done in us dollars ie foreign exchange, so the importation of the extra oil required was a CONSUMER of foreign goods,
Most of the products of the refinery are consumed locally, ie NO FOREIGN exchange coming in, the few that is exported is also going out at a LOSS,
So on the whole, petrotrin was a net consumer of usd, and possibly quite substantial consumer as oil and gas is big business in this country.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby elec2020 » October 30th, 2020, 3:42 pm

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:As stated earlier. The restructuring aimed at improving oil extraction. Reducing the need for importing oil for the refinery. So the recent demand for the refinery is driven by the fact that less oil needs to be imported. With lower production costs (it is fair to assume that locally produced crude from next door is cheaper than foreign crude on tankers) the refinery is more profitable than it was before.


Refinery sale has nothing to do with heritage producing more oil. They aren’t producing significantly more barrels of oil. Less most likely. So that does not stand up to scrutiny. Refinery will run on majority imported crude. Volume sold locally is part of the picture. Ask how much it is sold for regionally and internationally before you say it is a net consumer. Read more. Petrotrin issue was that loan which it used to pay.


"Petrotrin currently produces 40,000 barrels per day (bpd) of crude, while its refinery operates at a capacity of 140,000 bpd, which requires the crude supplies to be imported. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-refi ... SKCN1LD2NG)"

"At present oil production is at a low of approximately 66,000 barrels per day, with two-thirds of the production coming from state owned company Heritage Petroleum Company" (https://www.opm.gov.tt/pms-feature-addr ... onference/)

"Khan: TT Oil Production to Reach 90,000 bpd in 2020 (http://azpnews.com/khan-tt-oil-producti ... d-in-2020/)"

So actually, according to Khan, oil production should increase (2020 may be ambitious given the current pandemic though). Additionally, as I said before, the demand for the refinery would be driven by the promise of lower production costs. The refinery was bogged down by high production costs due to the need to import 100,000 barrels of oil per day (around that time oil prices floated between 50 and 60 US i believe so thats $5 million US a day just to purchase the oil, we ain't even talk about shipping and handling, transport from the ports to the refinery, etc). Now if the government does in fact reach to 90,000 barrels per day, the owner(s) of the refinery would only need to source 50,000 barrels of oil per day. so essentially that aspect of their production costs got cut in half. Which group interested in refining oil would not readily jump on that wagon. Again please use some critical thinking instead of just heresay and what your gut tells you.


Should. Sure. What’s the actual production figure when refinery was out for bids? Why would someone bid based on what oil production *should* be vs actual with zero control over local production? You really going to quote Franklin khan and believe him? Talk to people who actually at heritage.


A prospectus is presented to anyone willing to invest in something. That document provides some historic information and then possible scenarios (prospects) for interested parties. All investments are based on what stakeholders believe are the prospects of the organization. And please provide evidence on why Franklin Khan is less credible than the former workers of Petrotrin. Each have their agendas, but I am more willing to entertain Khan's comments as he did not run the most important organization of TnT into the ground.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby elec2020 » October 30th, 2020, 3:45 pm

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
The_Honourable wrote:Can't transfer title as in a legal issue or the government doesn't want to give up the refinery (or the holding company Guaracara Refining Company under TPHL to Patriotic?)

Only took two years of lost Forex, refinery employees livelihoods and fence line communities detriment to realize that? Grate is the PNM! :roll:


Wasn't it reported that under the existing model petrotrin was essentially a net user of foreign exchange as a significant amount of barrels of oil needed to be imported for the refinery. The goal of the restructuring was to increase oil extraction to limit how much oil had to be imported for the refinery. (Cue name calling and unfounded statements)

The refined goods they sold would have offset the crude price.


As Redman showed. If most being consumed pocally. U spending forex and not getting back forex. Hence u a net consumer of for ex.

Hence the word offset. The argument cannot be that processing a raw material into higher value end products results in a loss just by itself, rather it points to burdensome debt, inefficiency, too many employees and the attendant costs, or a failed business model, none of which are good btw.


How can it be offset? It is a net consumer of foreign exchange. Okay. Let me break it down like this. The refinery needed 140,000 barrels per day while Petrotrin only produced 40,000. So 100,000 barrels per day had to be imported. Lets say the oil price in 2018 was 50 US. Thats 5 million US that was spent a day on the refinery. It is stated that most of that product was sold locally. So you spent a lot of US to produce the product and sold most of it in exchange for TT. If that is the case then you are a net consumer of foreign exchange (I highly doubt that even at marked up prices the refinery made up back that 5 million US in exports from the remaining products left after satisfying local demand)


Also do you think they pay for local crude in ttd?


We talking about the refined product. The refined product would go on market at TT prices as (to my knowledge) under the Exchange Control Act it is illegal to sell products/services in Trinidad and Tobago for only US. If I am wrong please provide the evidence.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » October 30th, 2020, 3:46 pm

elec2020 wrote:
Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:As stated earlier. The restructuring aimed at improving oil extraction. Reducing the need for importing oil for the refinery. So the recent demand for the refinery is driven by the fact that less oil needs to be imported. With lower production costs (it is fair to assume that locally produced crude from next door is cheaper than foreign crude on tankers) the refinery is more profitable than it was before.


Refinery sale has nothing to do with heritage producing more oil. They aren’t producing significantly more barrels of oil. Less most likely. So that does not stand up to scrutiny. Refinery will run on majority imported crude. Volume sold locally is part of the picture. Ask how much it is sold for regionally and internationally before you say it is a net consumer. Read more. Petrotrin issue was that loan which it used to pay.


"Petrotrin currently produces 40,000 barrels per day (bpd) of crude, while its refinery operates at a capacity of 140,000 bpd, which requires the crude supplies to be imported. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-refi ... SKCN1LD2NG)"

"At present oil production is at a low of approximately 66,000 barrels per day, with two-thirds of the production coming from state owned company Heritage Petroleum Company" (https://www.opm.gov.tt/pms-feature-addr ... onference/)

"Khan: TT Oil Production to Reach 90,000 bpd in 2020 (http://azpnews.com/khan-tt-oil-producti ... d-in-2020/)"

So actually, according to Khan, oil production should increase (2020 may be ambitious given the current pandemic though). Additionally, as I said before, the demand for the refinery would be driven by the promise of lower production costs. The refinery was bogged down by high production costs due to the need to import 100,000 barrels of oil per day (around that time oil prices floated between 50 and 60 US i believe so thats $5 million US a day just to purchase the oil, we ain't even talk about shipping and handling, transport from the ports to the refinery, etc). Now if the government does in fact reach to 90,000 barrels per day, the owner(s) of the refinery would only need to source 50,000 barrels of oil per day. so essentially that aspect of their production costs got cut in half. Which group interested in refining oil would not readily jump on that wagon. Again please use some critical thinking instead of just heresay and what your gut tells you.


Should. Sure. What’s the actual production figure when refinery was out for bids? Why would someone bid based on what oil production *should* be vs actual with zero control over local production? You really going to quote Franklin khan and believe him? Talk to people who actually at heritage.


A prospectus is presented to anyone willing to invest in something. That document provides some historic information and then possible scenarios (prospects) for interested parties. All investments are based on what stakeholders believe are the prospects of the organization. And please provide evidence on why Franklin Khan is less credible than the former workers of Petrotrin. Each have their agendas, but I am more willing to entertain Khan's comments as he did not run the most important organization of TnT into the ground.


No one is telling you to believe one over the other. Someone is telling you talk to current heritage employees to ascertain the validity of Khan’s claims. Also remember at the end of the day unions do not run companies here. Government of TT ran Petrotrin into the ground under different parties so I wouldn’t be willing to assume Franklin didn’t help with that.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » October 30th, 2020, 3:48 pm

elec2020 wrote:
Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:Only took two years of lost Forex, refinery employees livelihoods and fence line communities detriment to realize that? Grate is the PNM! :roll:


Wasn't it reported that under the existing model petrotrin was essentially a net user of foreign exchange as a significant amount of barrels of oil needed to be imported for the refinery. The goal of the restructuring was to increase oil extraction to limit how much oil had to be imported for the refinery. (Cue name calling and unfounded statements)

The refined goods they sold would have offset the crude price.


As Redman showed. If most being consumed pocally. U spending forex and not getting back forex. Hence u a net consumer of for ex.

Hence the word offset. The argument cannot be that processing a raw material into higher value end products results in a loss just by itself, rather it points to burdensome debt, inefficiency, too many employees and the attendant costs, or a failed business model, none of which are good btw.


How can it be offset? It is a net consumer of foreign exchange. Okay. Let me break it down like this. The refinery needed 140,000 barrels per day while Petrotrin only produced 40,000. So 100,000 barrels per day had to be imported. Lets say the oil price in 2018 was 50 US. Thats 5 million US that was spent a day on the refinery. It is stated that most of that product was sold locally. So you spent a lot of US to produce the product and sold most of it in exchange for TT. If that is the case then you are a net consumer of foreign exchange (I highly doubt that even at marked up prices the refinery made up back that 5 million US in exports from the remaining products left after satisfying local demand)


Also do you think they pay for local crude in ttd?


We talking about the refined product. The refined product would go on market at TT prices as (to my knowledge) under the Exchange Control Act it is illegal to sell products/services in Trinidad and Tobago for only US. If I am wrong please provide the evidence.


Key thing here is to your knowledge. That’s great that the man on the street not paying in USD. Best believe petrotrin was getting usd from np and Unipet just like Paria is now.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby elec2020 » October 30th, 2020, 3:50 pm

Hwells wrote:something the rowley said months ago maybe a year, he as head of cabinet was authorising the purchased of oil for the refinery knowingly the be purchased at a higher price than the price of the refined products coming out. knowingly making a loss.
A loss meaning loseing money left right and centre, this was one of his reasoning for closing down the plant.

Of course international trade, ie purchases and sales are done in us dollars ie foreign exchange, so the importation of the extra oil required was a CONSUMER of foreign goods,
Most of the products of the refinery are consumed locally, ie NO FOREIGN exchange coming in, the few that is exported is also going out at a LOSS,
So on the whole, petrotrin was a net consumer of usd, and possibly quite substantial consumer as oil and gas is big business in this country.


Allergic2BunnyEars and Dohplaydat are being stubborn or not familiar enough with economics and/or international trade to understand this point. I have put this observation across in different ways several times and instead of trying to disprove my comment using traceable sources or statistics they using heresay. About who to believe over the other. I am fed up of entertaining and responding to their views. But I am glad to see that its not only me that has been able to deduct why Petrotrin was a net consumer of for ex.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » October 30th, 2020, 3:55 pm

elec2020 wrote:
Hwells wrote:something the rowley said months ago maybe a year, he as head of cabinet was authorising the purchased of oil for the refinery knowingly the be purchased at a higher price than the price of the refined products coming out. knowingly making a loss.
A loss meaning loseing money left right and centre, this was one of his reasoning for closing down the plant.

Of course international trade, ie purchases and sales are done in us dollars ie foreign exchange, so the importation of the extra oil required was a CONSUMER of foreign goods,
Most of the products of the refinery are consumed locally, ie NO FOREIGN exchange coming in, the few that is exported is also going out at a LOSS,
So on the whole, petrotrin was a net consumer of usd, and possibly quite substantial consumer as oil and gas is big business in this country.


Allergic2BunnyEars and Dohplaydat are being stubborn or not familiar enough with economics and/or international trade to understand this point. I have put this observation across in different ways several times and instead of trying to disprove my comment using traceable sources or statistics they using heresay. About who to believe over the other. I am fed up of entertaining and responding to their views. But I am glad to see that its not only me that has been able to deduct why Petrotrin was a net consumer of for ex.

Not everything is traceable online. You want to use wrong info to try to deduce. Not because something sounds correct means it is. Also some info is under NDA so you’ll never get the full picture but people will help you by telling you to read between the lines. Up to you to figure out.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby elec2020 » October 30th, 2020, 4:05 pm

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
Wasn't it reported that under the existing model petrotrin was essentially a net user of foreign exchange as a significant amount of barrels of oil needed to be imported for the refinery. The goal of the restructuring was to increase oil extraction to limit how much oil had to be imported for the refinery. (Cue name calling and unfounded statements)

The refined goods they sold would have offset the crude price.


As Redman showed. If most being consumed pocally. U spending forex and not getting back forex. Hence u a net consumer of for ex.

Hence the word offset. The argument cannot be that processing a raw material into higher value end products results in a loss just by itself, rather it points to burdensome debt, inefficiency, too many employees and the attendant costs, or a failed business model, none of which are good btw.


How can it be offset? It is a net consumer of foreign exchange. Okay. Let me break it down like this. The refinery needed 140,000 barrels per day while Petrotrin only produced 40,000. So 100,000 barrels per day had to be imported. Lets say the oil price in 2018 was 50 US. Thats 5 million US that was spent a day on the refinery. It is stated that most of that product was sold locally. So you spent a lot of US to produce the product and sold most of it in exchange for TT. If that is the case then you are a net consumer of foreign exchange (I highly doubt that even at marked up prices the refinery made up back that 5 million US in exports from the remaining products left after satisfying local demand)


Also do you think they pay for local crude in ttd?


We talking about the refined product. The refined product would go on market at TT prices as (to my knowledge) under the Exchange Control Act it is illegal to sell products/services in Trinidad and Tobago for only US. If I am wrong please provide the evidence.


Key thing here is to your knowledge. That’s great that the man on the street not paying in USD. Best believe petrotrin was getting usd from np and Unipet just like Paria is now.


Exchange Control Act pg 8 (https://rgd.legalaffairs.gov.tt/Laws2/A ... /79.50.pdf)

6. (1) Except with the permission of the Bank, no person (other than an authorised dealer) shall in Trinidad and Tobago, buy or borrow any gold or foreign currency from, or sell or lend any gold or foreign currency to, any person other than an authorised dealer.

This excerpt from the act would make it that the purchase of refined products for only in exchange of US dollars illegal unless permission was granted to do so. Even if permission was granted to do so, where would NP and Unipet get the millions of US to purchase the refined product. From the government/banks? So the government using foreign exchange to purchase the oil for the refinery. To then use foreign exchange again to purchase the refined products for NP (seeing that NP is essentially a government entity). While UNIPET would go to the banks and get millions of US a day to purchase refined products from Petrotrin. How comes the forex ain't done yet if so? Also Paira is off course spending for ex. They are importing the refined product as refined products are no longer produced locally. This is my last comment on this topic. I fed up countering your heresay with facts and logical thinking. You make up your mind that Petrotrin should never have been restructured and the refinery was ok. The government mess up everything and lieing to everyone. Don't mind the Scott Ryder and the Lashlee Committee report. The workers know what is best. Thats why they were making consecutive losses, had astronomical operating costs and no clear way to pay loans/bonds due in the near future.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby elec2020 » October 30th, 2020, 4:06 pm

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
Hwells wrote:something the rowley said months ago maybe a year, he as head of cabinet was authorising the purchased of oil for the refinery knowingly the be purchased at a higher price than the price of the refined products coming out. knowingly making a loss.
A loss meaning loseing money left right and centre, this was one of his reasoning for closing down the plant.

Of course international trade, ie purchases and sales are done in us dollars ie foreign exchange, so the importation of the extra oil required was a CONSUMER of foreign goods,
Most of the products of the refinery are consumed locally, ie NO FOREIGN exchange coming in, the few that is exported is also going out at a LOSS,
So on the whole, petrotrin was a net consumer of usd, and possibly quite substantial consumer as oil and gas is big business in this country.


Allergic2BunnyEars and Dohplaydat are being stubborn or not familiar enough with economics and/or international trade to understand this point. I have put this observation across in different ways several times and instead of trying to disprove my comment using traceable sources or statistics they using heresay. About who to believe over the other. I am fed up of entertaining and responding to their views. But I am glad to see that its not only me that has been able to deduct why Petrotrin was a net consumer of for ex.

Not everything is traceable online. You want to use wrong info to try to deduce. Not because something sounds correct means it is. Also some info is under NDA so you’ll never get the full picture but people will help you by telling you to read between the lines. Up to you to figure out.


So all online sources, reports (like the Scott Ryder and Lashlee Committee) and statements from the government are wrong. Its only the workers and the union know the truth. Got you

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » October 30th, 2020, 4:16 pm

elec2020 wrote:
Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:
elec2020 wrote:
De Dragon wrote:The refined goods they sold would have offset the crude price.


As Redman showed. If most being consumed pocally. U spending forex and not getting back forex. Hence u a net consumer of for ex.

Hence the word offset. The argument cannot be that processing a raw material into higher value end products results in a loss just by itself, rather it points to burdensome debt, inefficiency, too many employees and the attendant costs, or a failed business model, none of which are good btw.


How can it be offset? It is a net consumer of foreign exchange. Okay. Let me break it down like this. The refinery needed 140,000 barrels per day while Petrotrin only produced 40,000. So 100,000 barrels per day had to be imported. Lets say the oil price in 2018 was 50 US. Thats 5 million US that was spent a day on the refinery. It is stated that most of that product was sold locally. So you spent a lot of US to produce the product and sold most of it in exchange for TT. If that is the case then you are a net consumer of foreign exchange (I highly doubt that even at marked up prices the refinery made up back that 5 million US in exports from the remaining products left after satisfying local demand)


Also do you think they pay for local crude in ttd?


We talking about the refined product. The refined product would go on market at TT prices as (to my knowledge) under the Exchange Control Act it is illegal to sell products/services in Trinidad and Tobago for only US. If I am wrong please provide the evidence.


Key thing here is to your knowledge. That’s great that the man on the street not paying in USD. Best believe petrotrin was getting usd from np and Unipet just like Paria is now.


Exchange Control Act pg 8 (https://rgd.legalaffairs.gov.tt/Laws2/A ... /79.50.pdf)

6. (1) Except with the permission of the Bank, no person (other than an authorised dealer) shall in Trinidad and Tobago, buy or borrow any gold or foreign currency from, or sell or lend any gold or foreign currency to, any person other than an authorised dealer.

This excerpt from the act would make it that the purchase of refined products for only in exchange of US dollars illegal unless permission was granted to do so. Even if permission was granted to do so, where would NP and Unipet get the millions of US to purchase the refined product. From the government/banks? So the government using foreign exchange to purchase the oil for the refinery. To then use foreign exchange again to purchase the refined products for NP (seeing that NP is essentially a government entity). While UNIPET would go to the banks and get millions of US a day to purchase refined products from Petrotrin. How comes the forex ain't done yet if so? Also Paira is off course spending for ex. They are importing the refined product as refined products are no longer produced locally. This is my last comment on this topic. I fed up countering your heresay with facts and logical thinking. You make up your mind that Petrotrin should never have been restructured and the refinery was ok. The government mess up everything and lieing to everyone. Don't mind the Scott Ryder and the Lashlee Committee report. The workers know what is best. Thats why they were making consecutive losses, had astronomical operating costs and no clear way to pay loans/bonds due in the near future.


At no point did I say restructuring wasn’t necessary. That is your misinterpretation.
Interesting that you now asking how come the forex ain’t done yet. Maybe it isn’t as straightforward as you think it is. Bypassing my points about prices paid in usd between local companies and also regional and extra-regional prices being significantly higher doesn’t mean your logic holds. Pull up whatever acts you want to pull up. You still don’t understand how things worked.

My other point is the refinery works else no one would want to buy or run it. Assuming heritage will make it successful when they lack the history is also very risky and not a major part of the bid. If you listen to Franklin before and post shutdown you will hear very different stories that do not line up. Feel free to follow him and believe all versions.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby elec2020 » October 30th, 2020, 4:19 pm

noted

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby De Dragon » October 30th, 2020, 4:37 pm

Several things to note.
OJT seems unsure of his points, or confident in his argument, hence his conclusion every single time he is challenged, he resorts to this childish "noted' nonsense. Also, OJT seems to place a lot of stock in Guy Smiley's words, which is odd as up to fairly recently, we were blatantly lied to about several things by said Guy Smiley, namely Delcy, Nabarima, and crude production supposedly doubling in 2020, which was facical, Covid-19 notwithstanding.
Also he seems unsure still about the meaning of the word offset, maybe he thinks it refers to Cardi B's husband :?

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby elec2020 » October 30th, 2020, 4:43 pm

got you

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » October 30th, 2020, 6:47 pm

Ok I made a mistake....it’s about 80 %. That is exported.
I got it back to front.

Export sales in 2017 were about 37m BbLs vs 10m bbls for local.....I only just was able to check the number....it didn’t feel correct earlier.

My apologies.

So elec it should be easier to see the possibility of petrotrin being a net forex earner.

That said....the company was terribly run by sequential govts, and used as a feeding trough by all who were able to.

Normal for a state enterprise....except that the numbers are huge.

So normal economic/business conditions never apply to analyzing Petrotrin.

And it’s in many peoples interest to keep the waters muddy.

Scotty about the mistake gentlemen.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby The_Honourable » October 30th, 2020, 11:24 pm

Comrades All,

Please see below an official statement from Patriotic Energies & Technologies Co. Ltd

MEDIA STATEMENT: Patriotic meets deadline

During negotiations for the sale of the Pointe-a-Pierre Refinery and the Port, parties encountered a major challenge with respect to the offer made by the Minister of Finance on September 20th 2019.

On September 28th 2020, the Prime Minister gave the end of October as the deadline for parties to agree on a way towards final closure of the acquisition process. However, It was only on last Wednesday, October 21st 2020, that Patriotic finally met with the Ministerial committee in an attempt to resolve the unique challenge associated with the Government’s offer of September 20th, last year.

At last week’s meeting, Patriotic reiterated its commitment to complete the process and therefore agreed to submit a proposal to overcome the “stumbling block”. Subsequently Patriotic met with its international team and developed the proposal for the way forward.

At exactly 10:07 pm last evening, Thursday, October 29 Patriotic submitted a proposal for resolution of the issues, ahead of the Prime Minister’s deadline.

Patriotic earnestly hopes that this proposal will lead to the swift completion of the acquisition process, paving the way to the reopening of the refinery in the interest of the People of Trinidad and Tobago.

PATRIOTIC ENERGIES AND TECHNOLOGIES CO. LTD.

https://www.facebook.com/OilfieldsWorke ... 9929815652

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby elec2020 » October 31st, 2020, 11:12 am

Redman thanks for that information. I would really like to see more statistics on petrotrin's business operations. Alas everything is kept in secret here. Some things still confuse me. As, if petrptrin was a net earner of foreign exchange why were they in such an impossible foreign debt position. Yes u can argue that ineptitude and corruption were some of the comtributing factors. But why the need for so much foreign funds if u were a net foreign earner. Idk nah. But end of the day. They had to be restructured. I think at least that is not up for debate

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » October 31st, 2020, 12:15 pm

elec2020 wrote:Redman thanks for that information. I would really like to see more statistics on petrotrin's business operations. Alas everything is kept in secret here. Some things still confuse me. As, if petrptrin was a net earner of foreign exchange why were they in such an impossible foreign debt position. Yes u can argue that ineptitude and corruption were some of the comtributing factors. But why the need for so much foreign funds if u were a net foreign earner. Idk nah. But end of the day. They had to be restructured. I think at least that is not up for debate


Foreign debt position due to bonds taken in 2007 and 2009. One bond in particular had a bullet payment worth the full principle due in 2019 and has since been restructured and attached to Heritage.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Redman » October 31st, 2020, 12:16 pm

elec2020 wrote:Redman thanks for that information. I would really like to see more statistics on petrotrin's business operations. Alas everything is kept in secret here. Some things still confuse me. As, if petrptrin was a net earner of foreign exchange why were they in such an impossible foreign debt position. Yes u can argue that ineptitude and corruption were some of the comtributing factors. But why the need for so much foreign funds if u were a net foreign earner. Idk nah. But end of the day. They had to be restructured. I think at least that is not up for debate


Most of our oil related biz for the country https://www.energy.gov.tt/publications/

Some of Petrotrins financials
http://trinidadpetroleum.co.tt/investor ... tatements/

To get at the financials to 08 I had to sift through Parliaments website for whatever was submitted.

They took the Petrotrin website down so fast....hmmm

it is a tough assessment to make-IMHO Petrotrin was never allowed to operate as it should have. Petrotrin run properly would have been an asset to keep going.

Petrotrin as it was in 2017 needed to be fixed.


A while back Hassanali gave a business guardian interview where his numbers indicated that they were paying 10-20% over WTI for oil that was trading below WTI.
with the average for the time period being 90 ish-you could see that real money was being made.

The numbers were there- but crickets.
The unions did their part as well.
So from Top to bottom mankind was sucking the co dry.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby K74T » October 31st, 2020, 3:01 pm

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby elec2020 » October 31st, 2020, 3:04 pm

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
elec2020 wrote:Redman thanks for that information. I would really like to see more statistics on petrotrin's business operations. Alas everything is kept in secret here. Some things still confuse me. As, if petrptrin was a net earner of foreign exchange why were they in such an impossible foreign debt position. Yes u can argue that ineptitude and corruption were some of the comtributing factors. But why the need for so much foreign funds if u were a net foreign earner. Idk nah. But end of the day. They had to be restructured. I think at least that is not up for debate


Foreign debt position due to bonds taken in 2007 and 2009. One bond in particular had a bullet payment worth the full principle due in 2019 and has since been restructured and attached to Heritage.


Thanks for the info

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby elec2020 » October 31st, 2020, 3:06 pm

Redman wrote:
elec2020 wrote:Redman thanks for that information. I would really like to see more statistics on petrotrin's business operations. Alas everything is kept in secret here. Some things still confuse me. As, if petrptrin was a net earner of foreign exchange why were they in such an impossible foreign debt position. Yes u can argue that ineptitude and corruption were some of the comtributing factors. But why the need for so much foreign funds if u were a net foreign earner. Idk nah. But end of the day. They had to be restructured. I think at least that is not up for debate


Most of our oil related biz for the country https://www.energy.gov.tt/publications/

Some of Petrotrins financials
http://trinidadpetroleum.co.tt/investor ... tatements/

To get at the financials to 08 I had to sift through Parliaments website for whatever was submitted.

They took the Petrotrin website down so fast....hmmm

it is a tough assessment to make-IMHO Petrotrin was never allowed to operate as it should have. Petrotrin run properly would have been an asset to keep going.

Petrotrin as it was in 2017 needed to be fixed.


A while back Hassanali gave a business guardian interview where his numbers indicated that they were paying 10-20% over WTI for oil that was trading below WTI.
with the average for the time period being 90 ish-you could see that real money was being made.

The numbers were there- but crickets.
The unions did their part as well.
So from Top to bottom mankind was sucking the co dry.


Thanks for the info i will go through when i get the chance. However the best way to run rackett is by hiding reports and keeping quiet if i getting a piece.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby wing » October 31st, 2020, 3:40 pm

MOE news conference at 4.30 . Moment of truth, do or die for the OWTU.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby K74T » October 31st, 2020, 3:58 pm

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » October 31st, 2020, 3:59 pm

wing wrote:MOE news conference at 4.30 . Moment of truth, do or die for the OWTU.


Quick set up of media conference seems like they just going to announce Patriotic was not successful.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby rebound » October 31st, 2020, 4:15 pm

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
wing wrote:MOE news conference at 4.30 . Moment of truth, do or die for the OWTU.


Quick set up of media conference seems like they just going to announce Patriotic was not successful.
I was thinking the opposite, if its a few elements they were waiting on and they got it, then the decision would be quick.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby wing » October 31st, 2020, 4:56 pm

OWTU proposal was rejected and government to look at other options.

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby sMASH » October 31st, 2020, 5:00 pm

wing wrote:OWTU proposal was rejected and government to look at other options.

not sheit... did nat see dat comin' :roll:

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Re: Petrotrin refinery shut down

Postby K74T » October 31st, 2020, 5:33 pm

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