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adnj
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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby adnj » May 2nd, 2020, 1:34 pm

Gladiator wrote:
adnj wrote:There were just 20 posts about whether the blue was neutral or not. :)



Yeah I know... my advice is to follow the local TTBS colour code. Appliances not meeting the code should be reported to them for non-compliance. It could be dangerous to people that don't know better.


I keep a copy of TTS 171 at my office. Blue is only mentioned for third leg 3-phase AC. The local EIG Rhino cable color code is made to EU/IEC standards, not TTS/NEC. But I suppose that is moot. You just need to wire it correctly.

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby Gladiator » May 3rd, 2020, 6:54 pm

Print this and keep it too... Note section on single phased installations

adnj wrote:
Gladiator wrote:
adnj wrote:There were just 20 posts about whether the blue was neutral or not. :)



Yeah I know... my advice is to follow the local TTBS colour code. Appliances not meeting the code should be reported to them for non-compliance. It could be dangerous to people that don't know better.


I keep a copy of TTS 171 at my office. Blue is only mentioned for third leg 3-phase AC. The local EIG Rhino cable color code is made to EU/IEC standards, not TTS/NEC. But I suppose that is moot. You just need to wire it correctly.
Screenshot_2020-05-03-18-52-20-994_com.android.chrome.jpeg


Download Higher Resolution here: http://www2.ttconnect.gov.tt/gortt/wcm/ ... OD=AJPERES
Last edited by Gladiator on May 3rd, 2020, 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby Gladiator » May 3rd, 2020, 7:01 pm

Reposting...
Screenshot_2020-05-03-18-58-04-554_com.google.android.apps.docs.jpeg
Screenshot_2020-05-03-19-01-26-116_com.google.android.apps.docs.jpeg

adnj
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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby adnj » May 3rd, 2020, 8:18 pm

Gladiator wrote:Print this and keep it too... Note section on single phased installations

adnj wrote:
Gladiator wrote:
adnj wrote:There were just 20 posts about whether the blue was neutral or not. :)



Yeah I know... my advice is to follow the local TTBS colour code. Appliances not meeting the code should be reported to them for non-compliance. It could be dangerous to people that don't know better.


I keep a copy of TTS 171 at my office. Blue is only mentioned for third leg 3-phase AC. The local EIG Rhino cable color code is made to EU/IEC standards, not TTS/NEC. But I suppose that is moot. You just need to wire it correctly.
Screenshot_2020-05-03-18-52-20-994_com.android.chrome.jpeg


Download Higher Resolution here: http://www2.ttconnect.gov.tt/gortt/wcm/ ... OD=AJPERES




This was something that was talked about when it happened in 2008. The revised low voltage TT standard didn't mention using blue as a neutral conductor - not even as an option.

In general, I believe that it's of little concequence. But if it's there, I didn't see it back then. No one that asked me about it could find it either. It may be in the 2015 revision but that doesn't explain the 2008 direction. Maybe it's just group blindness. Maybe it was a misprinted standard (WTF!).

If you can find it in TTS-171 2007/2008, let me know.

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby MicroSMD Lab » May 9th, 2020, 9:39 am

alfa wrote:
MicroSMD Lab wrote:
Gladiator wrote:Just to note that there is a configuration that comprises a single wire 220v which has one live line and a neutral line...

MicroSMD Lab wrote:^^ while that may be true, we don’t import electrical devices from all over the world. UK uses a different cycle AC from us and is mainly 220V so neutral may not be as necessary in their electrical devices. Anyway, what does the installation instructions say?

True, I have seen this with a couple of devices but 220v seems to be 2 x 110v for the most part, I'm just trying to lend a helping hand hopefully without misleading or confusing readers who may not be "electrically inclined".
adnj wrote:Trinidad imports electrical components from all over the world. Some companies such as Eaton and Cooper Standard have manufacturing on five continents.

Did you notice that I said "devices" and not "components"?

adnj wrote:On the topic of electrical standards, not even China, Taiwan and Hong Kong share the same electrical transmission standards, much less color coding.

Does China "typically" export the same products as the ones they produce for domestic use?

adnj wrote:Fame shower heaters switch coil resistance with a blue wire contact but switch both line and neutral with the diaphragm contacts.

The picture you posted previously shows the coil resistance being switched via the white wire not the blue. I agree that the live wire should be switched but in this case both live and neutral are switched via the diaphragm. However, the white wire switches the coil resistance, which, will very likely be switched while the unit is energized (external switch on) right? Now while switching, if we use the white wire as live, momentarily we would have a loose live wire very close to a possibly wet hand, the ground goes to the water chamber, not above the diaphragm so guess where the live wire will be going to complete the circuit and which company will be getting a bad reputation!
I am an engineer, but not electrical. I guess Prof. Julien and Mr. Lutchman went way beyond 2nd year EE with us.... :wink:

This is true but since the white wire switches the coil resistance if we use the blue wire as the live once the diaphragm makes contract then even if the coil resistance is disconnected via the switch then one leg of the coil will always remain energized which will be another hazard in itself. I prefer the live to go to the switch contacts as how all appliances are wired

While this is logical, there is another aspect of the design to consider. The ground wire, which MUST be connected, is extended into the water chamber, therefore while the coil might be energized, the ground wire in the water will take care of the possibility of anyone getting shocked from an unconnected live wire while switching the temperature. I got shocked from unplugging a device with a wet hand so I can imagine that switching an unconnected live wire with a wet finger about 1cm away with no alternative ground is a VERY dangerous situation. Furthermore, I ask again, what does the instructions say? I am almost certain it says that the white wire is neutral but I don't have one to confirm. Are we saying that the Trinidad and Tobago authorities knowingly allowed this device with a wiring flaw to be sold here for 30+ years without making a correction?

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby Ted_v2 » May 9th, 2020, 12:02 pm

them thing rell good. my grandparents have that about 25 years, changed the head twice in such time.
they does run the water first and then turn on the switch, rell value for money. i have a large 30gallon water heater, that does need to drain for maintenance?

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby ruffneck_12 » May 9th, 2020, 3:22 pm

To anyone reading this thread


It easier to buy a new one than to buy a new house.

These things is a death trap if not installed properly, and they fail spectacularly at times (if the diaphragm buss)

Just get a new one for every two elements you change I suggest.

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby adnj » May 9th, 2020, 4:18 pm

MicroSMD Lab wrote:
alfa wrote:
MicroSMD Lab wrote:
Gladiator wrote:Just to note that there is a configuration that comprises a single wire 220v which has one live line and a neutral line...

MicroSMD Lab wrote:^^ while that may be true, we don’t import electrical devices from all over the world. UK uses a different cycle AC from us and is mainly 220V so neutral may not be as necessary in their electrical devices. Anyway, what does the installation instructions say?

True, I have seen this with a couple of devices but 220v seems to be 2 x 110v for the most part, I'm just trying to lend a helping hand hopefully without misleading or confusing readers who may not be "electrically inclined".
adnj wrote:Trinidad imports electrical components from all over the world. Some companies such as Eaton and Cooper Standard have manufacturing on five continents.

Did you notice that I said "devices" and not "components"?

adnj wrote:On the topic of electrical standards, not even China, Taiwan and Hong Kong share the same electrical transmission standards, much less color coding.

Does China "typically" export the same products as the ones they produce for domestic use?

adnj wrote:Fame shower heaters switch coil resistance with a blue wire contact but switch both line and neutral with the diaphragm contacts.

The picture you posted previously shows the coil resistance being switched via the white wire not the blue. I agree that the live wire should be switched but in this case both live and neutral are switched via the diaphragm. However, the white wire switches the coil resistance, which, will very likely be switched while the unit is energized (external switch on) right? Now while switching, if we use the white wire as live, momentarily we would have a loose live wire very close to a possibly wet hand, the ground goes to the water chamber, not above the diaphragm so guess where the live wire will be going to complete the circuit and which company will be getting a bad reputation!
I am an engineer, but not electrical. I guess Prof. Julien and Mr. Lutchman went way beyond 2nd year EE with us.... :wink:

This is true but since the white wire switches the coil resistance if we use the blue wire as the live once the diaphragm makes contract then even if the coil resistance is disconnected via the switch then one leg of the coil will always remain energized which will be another hazard in itself. I prefer the live to go to the switch contacts as how all appliances are wired

While this is logical, there is another aspect of the design to consider. The ground wire, which MUST be connected, is extended into the water chamber, therefore while the coil might be energized, the ground wire in the water will take care of the possibility of anyone getting shocked from an unconnected live wire while switching the temperature. I got shocked from unplugging a device with a wet hand so I can imagine that switching an unconnected live wire with a wet finger about 1cm away with no alternative ground is a VERY dangerous situation. Furthermore, I ask again, what does the instructions say? I am almost certain it says that the white wire is neutral but I don't have one to confirm. Are we saying that the Trinidad and Tobago authorities knowingly allowed this device with a wiring flaw to be sold here for 30+ years without making a correction?


I don't believe that it is a flaw. Though it does not conform to the current standard. The earlier standard pictorial guide is straight from the TTConnect website. It doesn't conform to the standard either.

So yes, non-conforming devices and methods are being allowed.

Here's a Fame shower heater instruction sheet from their website. It may not be the one that the OP mentioned but I believe that I have seen them for sale locally.

According to the instructions, the blue wire is neutral and the white wire is live for single-phase.

https://fame.in.ua/components/com_jshop ... IDENCE.pdfImage

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby VexXx Dogg » July 23rd, 2020, 3:12 pm

Bumping this.

Wanna install one - kid decided that she wants hot water now.
I know the usual thing is to put a standard water heater switch, but I live in a house where people WILL forget to switch it off and potentially burn it out.

I was thinking about an industrial grade mechanical timer type switch that will turn off by itself after a preset time - say 5 minutes, but it should be configurable to up to 30 as needed.

Any suggestions on that kinda switch?

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby Dave » July 23rd, 2020, 3:28 pm

From my experience with them, the switch just isolates current for doing work on them I.e. changing elements etc. They work with water pressure and turn on the heater when it gets the pressure.

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby pugboy » July 23rd, 2020, 3:31 pm

it’s an extra safety layer
because the diaphragm switch built in is not fail proof imo

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby VexXx Dogg » July 23rd, 2020, 3:54 pm

Ok well this helps a bit. I could live with that.
I'll still look into some timers tho. I will sleep better LOL

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby pugboy » July 23rd, 2020, 4:07 pm

make sure that the wires run for it are adequate or oversized a bit.

I have one where the wires were getting warm and eventually melted insulation and burnt out which is the worst scenario,
I think my wires were correct size
luckily the breaker tripped
but it is possible fire may start before breaker trip.

in the worst case you want the head to burn and not the wires etc.

VexXx Dogg wrote:Ok well this helps a bit. I could live with that.
I'll still look into some timers tho. I will sleep better LOL

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Re: need help with a shower heater

Postby adnj » July 23rd, 2020, 4:13 pm

VexXx Dogg wrote:Bumping this.

Wanna install one - kid decided that she wants hot water now.
I know the usual thing is to put a standard water heater switch, but I live in a house where people WILL forget to switch it off and potentially burn it out.

I was thinking about an industrial grade mechanical timer type switch that will turn off by itself after a preset time - say 5 minutes, but it should be configurable to up to 30 as needed.

Any suggestions on that kinda switch?
You are asking about a DPST (dual pole, single throw) spring wound countdown timer. 30A may be available but I have only seen 20A used for bathroom infrared heating control.

A more robust solution is to use a dual pole relay controlled DPST mech timer mounted in the wall in a 4 inch box.

https://www.graybar.com/store/en/gb/ff430m-92094083#{Quick%20Order:Y}&{Contact%20Operation:DPST}&{Voltage%20Rating:125%20to%20277V%20AC}&{Time%20Cycle:30%20(Countdown)%20min}&{Amperage%20Rating:10%20(250/277%20V%20ac)%20A,%2020%20(125%20V%20ac)%20A}&{Poles:2-Pole}&{Termination:Up%20Front%20Terminal}&{Additional%20Options:Used%20in%20Incandescent,%20Fluorescent,%20CFL,%20LED}&{Additional%20Features:Automatically%20Limits%20On%20Time%20For%20Energy%20Consuming%20Loads}

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