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Flow Internet Thread

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maj. tom
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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby maj. tom » February 22nd, 2020, 8:17 am

Isn't gaming more about low latency? Why would PC and console gamers in 2020 require such high download bandwidth packages anyway? You can play any game on the market right now with at least 10Mbps down but recommend 25 Mbps and 10Mbps upload. Once the latency is low and the upload speed is high enough. So what is all this bs marketing of higher bandwidth packages (but same ping) from Flow and that these gamers seems to be licking up?

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby gastly369 » February 22nd, 2020, 9:31 am

Well.. Same question I asked..
maj. tom wrote:Isn't gaming more about low latency? Why would PC and console gamers in 2020 require such high download bandwidth packages anyway? You can play any game on the market right now with at least 10Mbps down but recommend 25 Mbps and 10Mbps upload. Once the latency is low and the upload speed is high enough. So what is all this bs marketing of higher bandwidth packages (but same ping) from Flow and that these gamers seems to be licking up?

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 22nd, 2020, 10:07 am

maj. tom wrote:Isn't gaming more about low latency? Why would PC and console gamers in 2020 require such high download bandwidth packages anyway? You can play any game on the market right now with at least 10Mbps down but recommend 25 Mbps and 10Mbps upload. Once the latency is low and the upload speed is high enough. So what is all this bs marketing of higher bandwidth packages (but same ping) from Flow and that these gamers seems to be licking up?


Games only require a 256k connection to function properly, you don't even need a megabit and if you monitor the network activity you would see this to be true so yes you are correct latency is the single most important factor with online games.

Right now in the FGC (Fighting Gaming Community) Online on reddit etc there is a huge debate and push to try and force developers to use Roll Back Netcode as 90% of Japanese fighting games still use delay based netcode. What roll back netcode like GGPO does is try to predict your inputs and then adjust the rollback frame value variable based on the Ping, it then resyncs when inputs cannot be synchronized within whatever value of the maximum rollback frame that is allowed.

It is difficult to explain and even more difficult to understand but the simple explanation of it is it makes your online experience feel closer to something like single player in offline training mode, it seeks to trick us into experiencing a game against an opponent across thousands of miles as tho they are close, so when we press a button on a fightstick or controller or keyboard etc the input will appear on screen almost same time. If the game fcks up cause of lag etc the game can literally ROLL BACK the Damage taken to opponent as if you were reversing time. It could skip and teleport while playing online when the connection isn't stable.

Now comes the perfect netcode but also the most hated Netcode in the Western World, DELAY BASED NETCODE, it has none of the issues of roll back, it syncs the game exactly the same for both players the problem with this is if the connection is far, the frame delay goes up, long distance = higher latency. If the connection is too far when you press an input on your controller you literally have to wait half a second or sometimes even 1 second for the move to appear on screen. Hence the term Input Delay AKA Delay Netcode.

Now comes Flow, their international ISP peering agreements is complete and utter total dog sh!t, in certain places like Canada you can literally get 54ms latency from Trinidad if you are on Digicel where as Flow you will suffer with 140ms or more. There is a misconception that this issue is because Digicel uses Fiber to the Home but that only accounts for saving 10 millisecond since Flow only uses copper for last mile and they use fiber for everything else. The reason Flow sucks @ss for online P2P Gaming is because of their horrible international routing and isp peering agreements etc. You won't notice any issues when doing server based gaming like Counter Strike GO or League of Legends or countless other games.

Fighting games suffer the most from latency because of the nature of how the games work, you literally have to count frame data when playing fighting games online at a somewhat competitive level because of how complex and hard fighting games are to play. It looks simple but at a high level it is incredibly difficult to time your moves and inputs in games like Tekken and Street Fighter 4 that has 1 Frame Links and when latency is high this makes sh!t really bad. Mortal Kombat and Injustice are NOT real fighting games mind you, you can get away with poorer connection in those games as they don't need strict timing to play

This is where Starlink comes in, Elon Musk can kill Fiber for people who want top tier latency across long distance. Just imagine right now a Flow user cannot play P2P games with someone using Digicel because there is 0 peering agreement between flow and digicel so the latency from Piarco to Arouca is WORSE than Trinidad to Europe. What an absolute JOKE these ISP are in this country and is is common of all 3rd world ISP across every 3rd world country mind you. Which is why I can't wait for Starlink, what I love about Starlink is you can follow Elon Musk on twitter and the best part is he is a PC Gamer and he talks about latency and hops and peering agreements, imagine a GAMER developing an ISP worldwide that works at the speed of light.

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby kamakazi » February 22nd, 2020, 10:46 am

Game downloads aren't exactly what you would call small; and as more companies move to digital distribution and more frequent updates you are now required to download multiple gigabytes across the internet.

For example:
GTA 5 is approx 50gb plus to download
When fallout 76 was released their was a 42gb day one update for consoles (so even though you bought the game on a disc, before you could play you had to get this update across the internet)



maj. tom wrote:Isn't gaming more about low latency? Why would PC and console gamers in 2020 require such high download bandwidth packages anyway? You can play any game on the market right now with at least 10Mbps down but recommend 25 Mbps and 10Mbps upload. Once the latency is low and the upload speed is high enough. So what is all this bs marketing of higher bandwidth packages (but same ping) from Flow and that these gamers seems to be licking up?

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby maj. tom » February 22nd, 2020, 11:48 am

ok, but you don't download the game every time you want to play it. A regular 50 Mbps connection for a one time download of a 42GB game is reasonable. That would take just 2 hours. Leave Steam to download and update overnight.

25Mbps is recommended for Netflix 4k streaming. The real latency to the game servers are close to 100ms from Flow and that has not changed in any "Gamer's Package."

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby kamakazi » February 22nd, 2020, 1:13 pm

maj. tom wrote:ok, but you don't download the game every time you want to play it. A regular 50 Mbps connection for a one time download of a 42GB game is reasonable. That would take just 2 hours. Leave Steam to download and update overnight.

25Mbps is recommended for Netflix 4k streaming. The real latency to the game servers are close to 100ms from Flow and that has not changed in any "Gamer's Package."
Obviously... But you asked about why gamers would require high download bandwidth packages.

So you get a brand new game, you want to play it, you put it on to be greeted by a 2hr wait. BTW that 2hrs might be in ideal conditions, add a family that wants to watch Netflix or YouTube at the best quality available.

If you have to re download an entire game library.

When you have to download every game while browsing through a library to find one you want to play. Those hours add up quite quickly.

Now some games do allow you to play before the download is completed (clearly they know their Target audience). IIRC fortnite was 12gb but I think they allowed you to play after 4 was downloaded or something similar.

Put another way...Let's say Netflix/YouTube required you to download the equivalent of a Blu-ray disc before you can start watching the movie/short video (and you have a large library to go through; you only have to download it once).


I am in no way arguing against having the lowest latencies possible.. But bandwidth is also beneficial

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby adnj » February 22nd, 2020, 1:30 pm

brickman wrote:
cornfused wrote:
Re Flow, paying for 100mbps, laptops get 25mbps max, phones 40 Mbps, tablets 80mbps

This was after a complaint that we are paying for 100mbps and the 3year-old software updated laptop only gets 15mbps

Need to upgrade to 5ghz wifi devices to get that 100 & get a router with gigabit lan ports.Had to buy a better one when i got the 100mbs upgrade.
802.11n supports 450 Mbits/sec on 2.4 Ghz bands. Fast Ethernet provides 100 Mbits/sec on 100 meters of cable. Properly installed you don't need an upgrade for a 100 Mbits/sec internet connection.

Though you would typically need to upgrade if you have wireless connection issues or if you are moving around large files on a local network.

There are also known issues with some device drivers not supporting the theoretical maximums.

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby bossmann » February 22nd, 2020, 1:40 pm

With fast ethernet you will not actually get your 100mb as there is other overhead on the connection. If you have a 100mb connection you will need gigabit to utilize your full connection.

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 22nd, 2020, 5:14 pm

maj. tom wrote:ok, but you don't download the game every time you want to play it. A regular 50 Mbps connection for a one time download of a 42GB game is reasonable. That would take just 2 hours. Leave Steam to download and update overnight.

25Mbps is recommended for Netflix 4k streaming. The real latency to the game servers are close to 100ms from Flow and that has not changed in any "Gamer's Package."


Correct, gamers package uses the same rubbish routing and non existent ISP peering agreement. The reason Flow even has a "gamers package" is a code word for "don't switch to superior Digicel with superior ping we will secretly give you more bandwidth for less money just to stay on our sh!tty network, please don't leave us for Digicel even tho all your gaming friends have Digicel and we have no peering agreement with Digicel cause we couldn't give a fck to get off our fat lazy @ssholes and do it so please use our dog sh!t network and enjoy your 200ms ping from Chaguanas to Freeport when playing with your friends on Digicel even tho you could just take Digicel and literally get 1ms pings with your friends but please stay with Flow"

Also something to note most people usually just play 1 game right through and only ever needs to just download updates that is a few gigabyte. Like most people just play fortnite alone, cause its fun and half of them play it just for skins.

I does only play Escape from Tarkov, Path of Exile, Street Fighter and Dragon Ball Fighter Z. None of which ever requires any big update for months. The vast majority of PC gamers just play CS GO, DOTA 2 and League of Legends or Fortnite and PUBG.

None of which requires any big updates at all. Very few people does be downloading big games constantly unless they are like 12 years old and don't have a clue what to play and keeps downloading new stuff just for curiosity. Any sensible person knows 90% of games out there is garbage and not worth downloading

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 22nd, 2020, 5:28 pm

You know what even funnier? I played against people in other Caribbean Islands and the Americas who also has Flow and the latency is somewhere around 240ms. So this is how bad flow is right, just imagine they don't even have a peering agreement within their OWN Network this is how horrible their routing is.

Luckily when Starlink comes around EVERYBODY using Starlink will be playing with latency at the speed of light, Lord Elon Musk has promised us this. The possibilities will be endless, the entire of South America will be opened up to us all of Europe will be playable at the speed of light. No more worrying about people setting region filtering and that nonsense or unable to join certain lobbies because your latency is too high.

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby adnj » February 22nd, 2020, 7:13 pm

bossmann wrote:With fast ethernet you will not actually get your 100mb as there is other overhead on the connection. If you have a 100mb connection you will need gigabit to utilize your full connection.
I agree with what you are saying with one caveat: if you are testing the connection speed, you need Gigabit ethernet or faster. For most users, 60% to 90% of advertised is the expected connection speed. Ethernet has a 20% to 30% protocol overhead which will likely be enough to where a user will not notice an upgrade to Gigabit ethernet in daily use.

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby kamakazi » February 23rd, 2020, 12:27 am

I am talking about consoles and PC.

Now I do not know what PlayStation online has become but in the past they would have specials available every month (highlighting new games or popular old games in addition to full game demos (where you download the entire game but are only allowed to play for a limited amount of time).
Gamepass for Windows live currently has loads of games on offer and while everything isn't for me, when you get a time limited access to try the games available, the download speed helps.
You might encounter other limitations... But if it only took you 30 minutes to be up and running versus two hours it hurts less.

Ever had to test why something in a game you want to play isn't working and had to re download it multiple times.

Hard drive crash or PC upgrade; how long to re download entire library.

Time is precious and for someone to say they don't understand the need for bandwidth...

Why get an SSD; might only save 30 seconds off a one minute load time. Once the stage is loaded it plays the same like if you had a hard drive. Just have to wait 30 seconds longer.






EFFECTIC DESIGNS wrote:
maj. tom wrote:ok, but you don't download the game every time you want to play it. A regular 50 Mbps connection for a one time download of a 42GB game is reasonable. That would take just 2 hours. Leave Steam to download and update overnight.

25Mbps is recommended for Netflix 4k streaming. The real latency to the game servers are close to 100ms from Flow and that has not changed in any "Gamer's Package."


Correct, gamers package uses the same rubbish routing and non existent ISP peering agreement. The reason Flow even has a "gamers package" is a code word for "don't switch to superior Digicel with superior ping we will secretly give you more bandwidth for less money just to stay on our sh!tty network, please don't leave us for Digicel even tho all your gaming friends have Digicel and we have no peering agreement with Digicel cause we couldn't give a fck to get off our fat lazy @ssholes and do it so please use our dog sh!t network and enjoy your 200ms ping from Chaguanas to Freeport when playing with your friends on Digicel even tho you could just take Digicel and literally get 1ms pings with your friends but please stay with Flow"

Also something to note most people usually just play 1 game right through and only ever needs to just download updates that is a few gigabyte. Like most people just play fortnite alone, cause its fun and half of them play it just for skins.

I does only play Escape from Tarkov, Path of Exile, Street Fighter and Dragon Ball Fighter Z. None of which ever requires any big update for months. The vast majority of PC gamers just play CS GO, DOTA 2 and League of Legends or Fortnite and PUBG.

None of which requires any big updates at all. Very few people does be downloading big games constantly unless they are like 12 years old and don't have a clue what to play and keeps downloading new stuff just for curiosity. Any sensible person knows 90% of games out there is garbage and not worth downloading

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby redmanjp » February 23rd, 2020, 4:03 am

Don't we have an IXP here in Trinidad which every major ISP has signed on to? We shouldn't be getting 200ms between ISPs here.

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby daxt0r » February 23rd, 2020, 8:13 am

In a nutshell it has to do with the IPV6 peers they use.
The AS for all Digicel IPv6 prefixes are not peered through TTIX, Digicel primarily uses IPV6 for consumers, if you are are business customer though you may IPV4 in which case all related AS's are peered at TTIX. Thus this forces most IPV6 customers to route through the US to a peer that allows transit back to our IPV4 prefixes.
The main drawback on this is that major video sites like Youtube and FB will initially load faster on FLOW or TSTT as they would gain the benefit of the presence of the local Akamai CDN and caching with much better latency than a Miami location.

Traceroute from Digicel IPV4 with only 5 hops
traceroute to ns1.flowtrinidad.com (200.1.104.35), 32 hops max, 3 probe packets per hop, 72 byte packets
1 * * *
2 200.1.111.249 74.133 ms 80.892 ms 73.822 ms
3 200.1.107.103 55.687 ms 59.080 ms 52.506 ms
4 200.1.111.35 58.390 ms 58.437 ms 58.347 ms
5 200.1.104.35 <ns1.flowtrinidad.com> 62.346 ms 60.650 ms 59.440 ms

Traceroute from Digicel IPV6 showing routing via USA to same address goes through 16 hops
Tracing route to ns1.flowtrinidad.com [200.1.104.35]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.17.1
2 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 179.60.213.153
3 5 ms 47 ms 48 ms 179.60.213.198
4 47 ms 47 ms 56 ms 179.60.213.213
5 47 ms 50 ms 49 ms 181.118.33.10
6 50 ms 52 ms 52 ms 172.31.13.47
7 52 ms 49 ms 49 ms 66.54.126.96
8 50 ms 53 ms 53 ms ae4.cr8-mia1.ip4.gtt.net [173.205.38.169]
9 53 ms 53 ms 53 ms mai-b3-link.telia.net [62.115.34.138]
10 52 ms 53 ms 138 ms asurnet-ic-339478-mai-b3.c.telia.net [62.115.12.17]
11 49 ms 49 ms 49 ms ae0.brx-mx2020-1.boca-raton.fl.usa.cwc.com [69.79.100.0]
12 51 ms 53 ms 51 ms 69.79.100.31
13 56 ms 98 ms 99 ms 63.245.90.219
14 98 ms 120 ms 120 ms 200.1.111.23
15 120 ms 105 ms 105 ms 200.1.111.33
16 106 ms 101 ms 100 ms ns1.flowtrinidad.com [200.1.104.35]

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 23rd, 2020, 9:48 am

kamakazi wrote:I am talking about consoles and PC.

Now I do not know what PlayStation online has become but in the past they would have specials available every month (highlighting new games or popular old games in addition to full game demos (where you download the entire game but are only allowed to play for a limited amount of time).
Gamepass for Windows live currently has loads of games on offer and while everything isn't for me, when you get a time limited access to try the games available, the download speed helps.
You might encounter other limitations... But if it only took you 30 minutes to be up and running versus two hours it hurts less.

Ever had to test why something in a game you want to play isn't working and had to re download it multiple times.

To be fair this is probably a console only problem, on PC when using Steam all you have to do is verify game file integrity and if it finds a file missing it will download it, not download the entire game again.

In all my years of using Steam more than a decade now I have never ever had to redownload a game that wasn't working properly just verify integrity, And a PC upgrade on Windows 10 does NOT involve reinstalling Windows you just swap parts and everything works just fine on the same SSD there is no need to reinstall anything in this day and age, what you are talking about is like a decade ago


Hard drive crash or PC upgrade; how long to re download entire library.

To be fair nobody uses hard drives anymore because SSD prices are incredibly cheap so cheap that HDD has become meaningless in the consumer world

Time is precious and for someone to say they don't understand the need for bandwidth...

Why get an SSD; might only save 30 seconds off a one minute load time. Once the stage is loaded it plays the same like if you had a hard drive. Just have to wait 30 seconds longer.


SSD makes a ton of sense, in many games I have tried an SSD can cut the loading times by more than half and games like Destiny 2 has tons and tons of loading for each map which makes it a nightmare on a hard drive cause of super long loading times. And SSD does not crash a good brand SSD can last 20 years, also nobody buys hard drives anymore


I want to point out something else, playstation store from what I heard kinda sucks because their servers are slow and capped so you can't actually download at 100mbps maybe something like 50mbps or less. Microsoft and Steam would more than likely give over 100mbps tho, but yes I understand what you are saying

What you are saying is IF you are a casual gamer and you play single player games and you manage to pay $60 USD a year to play online on consoles (Dunno why anybody would pay for Online, I mean you already pay for internet) then yes you would want to take full advantage of this rental service. And in such a case I could possibly see you wanting a fast connection and in that case Flow will benefit you.

But for 90% of gamers who just play Fortnite and playstation doesn't require PSN Plus to access Free to Play games online, all of them are going to be fine on something like 50mbps. People who buy games on Blu Ray Disk for their console probably wouldn't see any need for very high speeds since most of the data is on the disk. But online people who only download I could see it being necessary.

As for me I don't play games for Graphics I play for gameplay and in that case I end up playing the same exact game for months or years without touching another game. If a game is designed well, you wouldn't be playing anything else for months or years. But yes I fully understand the point you are making high bandwidth is very beneficial depending on the specific situation and person.

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 23rd, 2020, 10:14 am

daxt0r wrote:In a nutshell it has to do with the IPV6 peers they use.
The AS for all Digicel IPv6 prefixes are not peered through TTIX, Digicel primarily uses IPV6 for consumers, if you are are business customer though you may IPV4 in which case all related AS's are peered at TTIX. Thus this forces most IPV6 customers to route through the US to a peer that allows transit back to our IPV4 prefixes.
The main drawback on this is that major video sites like Youtube and FB will initially load faster on FLOW or TSTT as they would gain the benefit of the presence of the local Akamai CDN and caching with much better latency than a Miami location.

Traceroute from Digicel IPV4 with only 5 hops
traceroute to ns1.flowtrinidad.com (200.1.104.35), 32 hops max, 3 probe packets per hop, 72 byte packets
1 * * *
2 200.1.111.249 74.133 ms 80.892 ms 73.822 ms
3 200.1.107.103 55.687 ms 59.080 ms 52.506 ms
4 200.1.111.35 58.390 ms 58.437 ms 58.347 ms
5 200.1.104.35 <ns1.flowtrinidad.com> 62.346 ms 60.650 ms 59.440 ms

Traceroute from Digicel IPV6 showing routing via USA to same address goes through 16 hops
Tracing route to ns1.flowtrinidad.com [200.1.104.35]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.17.1
2 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 179.60.213.153
3 5 ms 47 ms 48 ms 179.60.213.198
4 47 ms 47 ms 56 ms 179.60.213.213
5 47 ms 50 ms 49 ms 181.118.33.10
6 50 ms 52 ms 52 ms 172.31.13.47
7 52 ms 49 ms 49 ms 66.54.126.96
8 50 ms 53 ms 53 ms ae4.cr8-mia1.ip4.gtt.net [173.205.38.169]
9 53 ms 53 ms 53 ms mai-b3-link.telia.net [62.115.34.138]
10 52 ms 53 ms 138 ms asurnet-ic-339478-mai-b3.c.telia.net [62.115.12.17]
11 49 ms 49 ms 49 ms ae0.brx-mx2020-1.boca-raton.fl.usa.cwc.com [69.79.100.0]
12 51 ms 53 ms 51 ms 69.79.100.31
13 56 ms 98 ms 99 ms 63.245.90.219
14 98 ms 120 ms 120 ms 200.1.111.23
15 120 ms 105 ms 105 ms 200.1.111.33
16 106 ms 101 ms 100 ms ns1.flowtrinidad.com [200.1.104.35]


So I take it then that gaming between Digicel and Flow is never going to be possible in the foreseeable future?

Anytime I play a game no matter the game with my friends on Digicel here the latency is always crazy high because the connection is then WORSE than my friend from Baltimore, but if I play with 1 friend on TSTT no problems it works like 10ms latency. The problem off course is nobody uses TSTT for gaming

Watch how good the Amplia connection is compared to Digicel Chaguanas. Nobody is really going to bother playing eachother at this point. A real shame if you ask me, who would you say is at fault here for this mess? Digicel or Flow?

Just imagine a speedtest to TEXAS is closer and better than Chaguanas to Piarco? WTF

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby kamakazi » February 23rd, 2020, 12:13 pm

Almost certain there is someone inside this thread with a computer that has spinning rust (well besides myself).
Count yourself lucky that you never experienced a game breaking bug, incompatible driver, lack of controller options etc.
Yes I had Windows gamepass for three months when I purchased my CPU.
Yes I broke Windows 10 twice trying to copy a gamepad controller emulator to the windows game directory (Xbox360ce) to use a Logitech gamepad.
Yes I had to re download the games I had.
Yes I had playstation plus for a month (PS3).

Used the SSD as an example cause it doesn't affect gameplay after the game (stage/map) is loaded, until the next loading screen. You mentioned Skyrim and its myriad loading screens; let me counter by saying God of war 1 and 2 for PS2; almost no loading screen for a game played off a DVD, from the time the first stage loaded (they hid the loading very cleverly and you never "see" it from start to end).

The games I play nowadays are casual (I don't play the latest and greatest but I like to try a lot of indie games) and to be honest response time and latency doesn't matter nearly as much in turn based strategy or collectible card games played online.

For someone(I know it was not you Effectic) to say they do not understand the need for high data packages is to be ignorant of the variety of systems, games and people playing.

Edit: I see mention of people who bought the disc. I'm stating one exception to this which is Fallout 76. After users bought the game disc and inserted it into their console... They were greeted by a 42gb day one patch to download.
For PC I think something similar happened for the same game. After downloading the 55gb game they had to download the 42gb day one patch... But this is probably the biggest exception

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby redmanjp » February 23rd, 2020, 2:36 pm

So is almost the whole game basically ppl have to redownload? No smaller updates available?

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 23rd, 2020, 3:21 pm

kamakazi I understand fully where you are coming from, I have a friend who plays exclusively single player games adventure etc he is a big fan of fallout and stuff and in his case he has a 100mbps connection because anything lower for him is a problem.

Right now a game like Modern Warfare remake is like 160 GB install space, downloading that on anything below 100mbps is gonna take some time. Definitely an overnight download leading well into the next day.

I do think Digicel's 50mb for $300 a month is a rip off, the flow gamers package 150mbps for $250 is so much better value it isn't even funny. And once you play server based multi player that doesn't require p2p then Flow is ideal. I am a big believer in Starlink tho because fighting games are going to depend on that for good online experience.

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby redmanjp » February 23rd, 2020, 3:22 pm

daxt0r wrote:In a nutshell it has to do with the IPV6 peers they use.
The AS for all Digicel IPv6 prefixes are not peered through TTIX, Digicel primarily uses IPV6 for consumers, if you are are business customer though you may IPV4 in which case all related AS's are peered at TTIX. Thus this forces most IPV6 customers to route through the US to a peer that allows transit back to our IPV4 prefixes.
The main drawback on this is that major video sites like Youtube and FB will initially load faster on FLOW or TSTT as they would gain the benefit of the presence of the local Akamai CDN and caching with much better latency than a Miami location.

Traceroute from Digicel IPV4 with only 5 hops
traceroute to ns1.flowtrinidad.com (200.1.104.35), 32 hops max, 3 probe packets per hop, 72 byte packets
1 * * *
2 200.1.111.249 74.133 ms 80.892 ms 73.822 ms
3 200.1.107.103 55.687 ms 59.080 ms 52.506 ms
4 200.1.111.35 58.390 ms 58.437 ms 58.347 ms
5 200.1.104.35 <ns1.flowtrinidad.com> 62.346 ms 60.650 ms 59.440 ms

Traceroute from Digicel IPV6 showing routing via USA to same address goes through 16 hops
Tracing route to ns1.flowtrinidad.com [200.1.104.35]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms <1 ms <1 ms 192.168.17.1
2 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 179.60.213.153
3 5 ms 47 ms 48 ms 179.60.213.198
4 47 ms 47 ms 56 ms 179.60.213.213
5 47 ms 50 ms 49 ms 181.118.33.10
6 50 ms 52 ms 52 ms 172.31.13.47
7 52 ms 49 ms 49 ms 66.54.126.96
8 50 ms 53 ms 53 ms ae4.cr8-mia1.ip4.gtt.net [173.205.38.169]
9 53 ms 53 ms 53 ms mai-b3-link.telia.net [62.115.34.138]
10 52 ms 53 ms 138 ms asurnet-ic-339478-mai-b3.c.telia.net [62.115.12.17]
11 49 ms 49 ms 49 ms ae0.brx-mx2020-1.boca-raton.fl.usa.cwc.com [69.79.100.0]
12 51 ms 53 ms 51 ms 69.79.100.31
13 56 ms 98 ms 99 ms 63.245.90.219
14 98 ms 120 ms 120 ms 200.1.111.23
15 120 ms 105 ms 105 ms 200.1.111.33
16 106 ms 101 ms 100 ms ns1.flowtrinidad.com [200.1.104.35]


so TTIX has to implement IPv6, probably a dual stack solution then

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 23rd, 2020, 3:38 pm

^ Any reason it hasn't been implemented yet? is it likely to ever happen?

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 24th, 2020, 9:02 pm

Anyone has an explanation for this?

LOL ent Barbados is right next door? and is Flow to Flow eh just imagine that :lol: See why we need Starlink?

200 miles on the same network shouldn't be giving a latency higher than 3000 miles on a different network :lol:

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby -Roach- » February 24th, 2020, 9:19 pm

Can anyone tell me the best DNS server to use on PS4 using flow?...

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby daxt0r » February 25th, 2020, 7:28 am

EFFECTIC DESIGNS wrote:Anyone has an explanation for this?

LOL ent Barbados is right next door? and is Flow to Flow eh just imagine that :lol: See why we need Starlink?

200 miles on the same network shouldn't be giving a latency higher than 3000 miles on a different network :lol:

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well two things:
1) That traffic is normal *internet* traffic from a normal internet user, thus it gets put in the slow lane. This is similar to what Tier 1 ISPs can do to Starlink traffic if they don't pay for prioritized access, like Netflix.
2) If you look below observe normal *internet* traffic from a business user which has a level of prioritized access due to the nature of a WAN versus internet connection to both BB speedtest and CW cloud hosted PBX.

If for example this test to hosted PBX was done however directly on VOIP phone that's connected to cloud pbx via provider MetroE switch you would get about 5-20ms delay as the traffic is prioritized and routed directly using MPLS over ARCOS backbone to the PBX location instead of bouncing over the internet. And that's the funny thing with FLOW, they actually have all the technical blocks in place and actively use non-internet routing internally for corporate/business usage but for some reason keeps normal inter-island routing bouncing out to Miami and back.

traceroute to speedtest4.flowbarbados.co (23.236.5.9), 32 hops max, 3 probe packets per hop, 72 byte packets
1 * * *
2 200.1.111.251 25.158 ms 25.401 ms 27.697 ms
3 200.1.107.101 16.746 ms 10.242 ms 10.963 ms
4 200.1.111.29 10.548 ms 14.900 ms 11.823 ms
5 200.1.111.24 9.612 ms 10.019 ms 10.378 ms
6 63.245.3.41 <xe-1-1-1.0-brx-teracore02.cwc.com> 58.061 ms 58.213 ms 77.173 ms
7 63.245.107.116 <xe-6-1-4.0-boca-raton.fl.us.nmi-teracore01.cwc.com> 60.285 ms 63.935 ms 57.823 ms
8 63.245.90.221 57.579 ms 57.734 ms 56.791 ms
9 * * *
10 23.236.5.9 <speedtest4.flowbarbados.co> 51.796 ms 50.957 ms 49.842 ms

traceroute to app-bb.cbscloudvoice.com (63.245.29.175), 32 hops max, 3 probe packets per hop, 72 byte packets
1 * * *
2 200.1.111.251 26.363 ms 20.310 ms 31.293 ms
3 200.1.107.101 10.957 ms 11.010 ms 12.436 ms
4 200.1.111.22 9.567 ms 9.445 ms 12.182 ms
5 63.245.90.218 61.604 ms 61.346 ms 61.852 ms
6 69.79.102.20 <ae9.brx-mx2020-2.boca-raton.fl.usa.cwc.com> 58.483 ms 59.586 ms 60.878 ms
7 69.79.102.1 <ae0.nmi-mx2020-2.north-miami.fl.usa.cwc.com> 61.047 ms 61.387 ms 60.774 ms
8 69.79.106.23 73.597 ms 60.694 ms 59.483 ms
9 63.245.5.85 <tengige2-1.usa.north-miami.fl.us.nmi-edge05.cwc.com> 59.252 ms 60.480 ms 59.767 ms
10 63.245.91.66 66.835 ms 60.622 ms 63.095 ms
11 63.245.29.175 <app-bb.cbscloudvoice.com> 60.772 ms 59.628 ms 59.487 ms

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 25th, 2020, 7:45 am

^ Thanks for the explanation, I find it really sickening that when playing P2P games with people so close by you end up with latency worse than 3000 miles. I remember finding a friend from Barbados in 2017 he has Flow and when we played it was horrible, ended up doing a speedtest to the flow server and realized how bad it is had same experience with another Caribbean Island. This really sad and they call it a "Gamers Package" just imagine that!!!!!!!!!!

You would think the so called "gamers package" would get some sort of priority for playing p2p games with people on your SAME network.

Why I mentioned starlink is not because Musk has to pay for priority from other ISP not at all, I mean speaking about a man from Brazil who has Starlink can play with me on Starlink which shouldn't create any issues should it?

If Starlink is covering the entire globe and not relying on anyother ISP it would be safe to assume a starlink to starlink connection anywhere will run at the speed of light yes? atleast this is what Elon Musk was hinting at on twitter

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 29th, 2020, 9:42 am

Anybody else seeing 250mbps gamers on their current subscription when they log into their flow account?

Also I paid my bill for $250 with credit card it said paid successful I downloaded the invoice just incase. But when I go back into my account it still says unpaid but this changed

Your Current Bill Amount
$0.00


Soooo Flow now offering us 250mbps for $250 a month? if so that is a huge advantage over digicel 50mb for $300 a month

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby gastly369 » February 29th, 2020, 9:47 am

250 is $450
EFFECTIC DESIGNS wrote:Anybody else seeing 250mbps gamers on their current subscription when they log into their flow account?

Also I paid my bill for $250 with credit card it said paid successful I downloaded the invoice just incase. But when I go back into my account it still says unpaid but this changed

Your Current Bill Amount
$0.00


Soooo Flow now offering us 250mbps for $250 a month? if so that is a huge advantage over digicel 50mb for $300 a month

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » February 29th, 2020, 10:05 am

Well me eh know nah I seeing the bill is $250 and package is 250mb Gamers

I never asked for 250mb package at all they had already raised it to 150mbps for $250 a month. Are you telling me they raised this again? cause I didn't get any email informing me of this, anybody else noticed this?

The only other thing I can think of is they raised it to 250mbps and the next bill will be billed at $300. I think I remember someone saying they were getting 250mbps gamers for $300 somewhere but I never asked to switch to anything higher than the 150mbps

Is there anybody else here seeing this speed on their account?

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby felix » February 29th, 2020, 9:27 pm

they are charging me $250 but my speed is still 150 mbps

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Re: Flow Internet Thread

Postby EFFECTIC DESIGNS » March 1st, 2020, 7:38 am

felix wrote:they are charging me $250 but my speed is still 150 mbps


That is the correct price and speed, if you want 250mbps you have to pay $300

Don't do it tho, they illegally switched me from 150mb to 250mb and now youtube gives tons of issues, lots of poor download speed as low as 3mbps etc its been a nightmare ever since, now its almost impossible to get them to revert me back and my internet is ruined after working perfect for 4 years straight.

Obviously they won't revert me because it is easier to charge me $300 a month and make more money even tho the so called 250mbps doesn't even cross 10mbps most of the time.

I won't be paying the next bill if its $300, will just switch to Digicel since Digicel has far better latency and all the gamers I know uses Digicel nobody uses Flow for gaming.

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