Energy Sector Thread - Operators, Engineers, Technicians Et Al

[DreamWeaver]

When you get a chance, check out the gas master plan:
https://www.energy.gov.tt/wp-content/up ... n-2015.pdf

Look on page 1-9 for figure 1-6. It'll show the NGC piping infrastructure. Also, check out page 1-11 figure 1-7 for a gas supply schematic.

I fail to see the link between the Atlantic investment and failure to renew gas contracts in Pt. Lisas.

Atlantic is supplied with gas from different upstream sources via a dedicated pipeline whereas Pt. Lisas gas originates from other upstream sources and is fed via another pipeline. To suggest that gas is preferentially being sent to Atlantic is a baseless argument as this is not possible under the current system configuration.

Titan Timeline:
2019 December 31st - Titan's gas contract expired and they get interim extensions until April 1st, 2020.
2020 April 1st - Methanex idles Titan due to Covid and the inability to get a long term gas contract with NGC.
2021 January 7th - Methanex announces they are shuttering Titan and retrenching workers.

M5000 Timeline:
2020 September 22nd - M5000's gas contract expired and they get interim extensions until April 1st, 2021.
2021 April 1st - MHTL idles M5000 due to the inability to get a long term gas contract with NGC.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________


...... the similarities are uncanny. Fill in the blank. I havent even considered M4 since their contract would have expired a while ago and NGC has been giving them interim supplies for quite some time. If MHTL does get a contract, I imagine Methanex will be interested in knowing the terms. Seeing as Atlantic Train 1 needs gas and the govt is eager to make good on their Train 1 TAR funding and their "better returns" agreeement for Train 1, I dont expect MHTL or Methanex to have their plants back online anytime soon.

[sMASH]

I fail to see the link between the Atlantic investment and failure to renew gas contracts in Pt. Lisas.

Atlantic is supplied with gas from different upstream sources via a dedicated pipeline whereas Pt. Lisas gas originates from other upstream sources and is fed via another pipeline. To suggest that gas is preferentially being sent to Atlantic is a baseless argument as this is not possible under the current system configuration.

Titan Timeline:
2019 December 31st - Titan's gas contract expired and they get interim extensions until April 1st, 2020.
2020 April 1st - Methanex idles Titan due to Covid and the inability to get a long term gas contract with NGC.
2021 January 7th - Methanex announces they are shuttering Titan and retrenching workers.

M5000 Timeline:
2020 September 22nd - M5000's gas contract expired and they get interim extensions until April 1st, 2021.
2021 April 1st - MHTL idles M5000 due to the inability to get a long term gas contract with NGC.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________


...... the similarities are uncanny. Fill in the blank. I havent even considered M4 since their contract would have expired a while ago and NGC has been giving them interim supplies for quite some time. If MHTL does get a contract, I imagine Methanex will be interested in knowing the terms. Seeing as Atlantic Train 1 needs gas and the govt is eager to make good on their Train 1 TAR funding and their "better returns" agreeement for Train 1, I dont expect MHTL or Methanex to have their plants back online anytime soon.

i seeing there are tie-ins at the beachfield and picton valve stations.

[carluva]

And this proves what? That there is a gas pipeline network in Trinidad and Tobago as well as jumpovers. This does not demonstrate that gas is being preferentially redirected.

[sMASH]

well, when there is a jump over from one line to the other, and they keep that closed, it shows that gas kept to one site, in preference to the other site.

[DreamWeaver]

And this proves what? That there is a gas pipeline network in Trinidad and Tobago as well as jumpovers. This does not demonstrate that gas is being preferentially redirected.

This proves that the current system configuration allows for the redirection of gas if NGC decides it and hence the argument is not baseless.

[carluva]

Dreamweaver, redirecting of gas is not as simple as opening a jumpover valve between the domestic lines and CIP. System pressures have to be considered to allow for gas to move from one line to another.

The largest hurdle is actually the commercial and legal requirements for this to take place. It is just not as easy as many think.

On the other hand, what is wrong if NGC invests in local assets to maximise returns to the country as opposed to returns being gained from foreign shareholders?

These arguments are typical Trinidadian mentality to always complain and find fault. Isn't it conceivable that NGC saw the issues with domestic gas supplies and contracts and in an effort to maintain revenue stream, they invested elsewhere to offset the loss of revenue?

For years Trinidadians have complained that the government has minimal shareholdings in the energy industry, but now that it is being done, people are finding other reasons to complain.

Imagine the loss to the national economy if no investments were done in Atlantic by NGC.

NGC have actually adapted over the last few years to expand the investment portfolio to ensure revenues remain in the country.

Your arguments are baseless as they myopically focus on one aspect of the system and are not looking at the other elements from a holistic view.


.

And this proves what? That there is a gas pipeline network in Trinidad and Tobago as well as jumpovers. This does not demonstrate that gas is being preferentially redirected.

This proves that the current system configuration allows for the redirection of gas if NGC decides it and hence the argument is not baseless.

[sMASH]

Dreamweaver, redirecting of gas is not as simple as opening a jumpover valve between the domestic lines and CIP. System pressures have to be considered to allow for gas to move from one line to another.

The largest hurdle is actually the commercial and legal requirements for this to take place. It is just not as easy as many think.

On the other hand, what is wrong if NGC invests in local assets to maximise returns to the country as opposed to returns being gained from foreign shareholders?

These arguments are typical Trinidadian mentality to always complain and find fault. Isn't it conceivable that NGC saw the issues with domestic gas supplies and contracts and in an effort to maintain revenue stream, they invested elsewhere to offset the loss of revenue?

For years Trinidadians have complained that the government has minimal shareholdings in the energy industry, but now that it is being done, people are finding other reasons to complain.

Imagine the loss to the national economy if no investments were done in Atlantic by NGC.

NGC have actually adapted over the last few years to expand the investment portfolio to ensure revenues remain in the country.

Your arguments are baseless as they myopically focus on one aspect of the system and are not looking at the other elements from a holistic view.


.

And this proves what? That there is a gas pipeline network in Trinidad and Tobago as well as jumpovers. This does not demonstrate that gas is being preferentially redirected.

This proves that the current system configuration allows for the redirection of gas if NGC decides it and hence the argument is not baseless.

any ting to do with pressures and flows, a couple guys in the field, or really just one, and one guy in a control room will handle dat. thats a non issue so long as the physical tie-ins are there. even if the tie-ins werent there, just hadda issue some hot tap permits and viola, jump over!

the actual tricky part is the agreements that are in place, correct. and just like with any thing oil and gas, they just have to have the will, and negotiate their way towards it.

just like we negotiated to saddle ngc with the complete 300m TAR budget for lng train 1, even tho there wasnt gas to run it to recoup that cost, and if u left it down till 2025, when gas does become available, u will be able to recoup ur 10% share of the TAR in less time than u will now.
and just like u negotiated ur way to tringen1 shut down, methanex titan plant shut down and proman m4 and 5 shut down.

u can negotiate any thing if u really want it.

[sMASH]

and i find it highly hypocritical that people touting propping up lng train1 cause we have shares in it, also condemned the idea of govt taking shares in the petrotrin refinery, since they looking to sell it to restart it.

in one breath allyuh saying govt getting out of the business of oil and gas so selling out the businesses. and in the second breath defending the lng tr1 cause govt have shares in it.

allyuh keep on defending nonsense while people getting put on the bread line. by the time they done the only wuk would be kfc, police of government

[DreamWeaver]

Dreamweaver, redirecting of gas is not as simple as opening a jumpover valve between the domestic lines and CIP. System pressures have to be considered to allow for gas to move from one line to another.

The largest hurdle is actually the commercial and legal requirements for this to take place. It is just not as easy as many think.

On the other hand, what is wrong if NGC invests in local assets to maximise returns to the country as opposed to returns being gained from foreign shareholders?

These arguments are typical Trinidadian mentality to always complain and find fault. Isn't it conceivable that NGC saw the issues with domestic gas supplies and contracts and in an effort to maintain revenue stream, they invested elsewhere to offset the loss of revenue?

For years Trinidadians have complained that the government has minimal shareholdings in the energy industry, but now that it is being done, people are finding other reasons to complain.

Imagine the loss to the national economy if no investments were done in Atlantic by NGC.

NGC have actually adapted over the last few years to expand the investment portfolio to ensure revenues remain in the country.

Your arguments are baseless as they myopically focus on one aspect of the system and are not looking at the other elements from a holistic view.


.

And this proves what? That there is a gas pipeline network in Trinidad and Tobago as well as jumpovers. This does not demonstrate that gas is being preferentially redirected.

This proves that the current system configuration allows for the redirection of gas if NGC decides it and hence the argument is not baseless.

But you said it wasn't possible before. Now you're saying it isn't as simple? Please make up your mind. The Atlantic Train 1's renegotiated contract and the pending Atlantic unitisation contract have lots of details that none of us are privy to. Anything is possible. The infrastructure is there.

And did I say it was a problem that we send gas to Atlantic? I said things bad for Point Lisas. There's a difference. If the returns are better for the govt then great. It all seems to be working out that way. If it heads that way then we'll be getting more profits as a country. Can you not agree to that? Point Lisas might be screwed though so the workers need to be aware of what is coming.

So calm down.

[carluva]

any ting to do with pressures and flows, a couple guys in the field, or really just one, and one guy in a control room will handle dat. thats a non issue so long as the physical tie-ins are there.

This statement alone shows the complete lack of understanding of pressures and flows into a network even though physical infrastructure may be in place.

even if the tie-ins werent there, just hadda issue some hot tap permits and viola, jump over!

You make it sound as if it is as simple as going in your yard to lock off your mains valve and then cutting the PVC line to install a TEE. Hot taps are not as simple as you have suggested.


All is easier said than done and for several reasons mentioned and not, this is just not possible.

[carluva]

If the returns are better for the govt then great. It all seems to be working out that way. If it heads that way then we'll be getting more profits as a country. Can you not agree to that? Point Lisas might be screwed though so the workers need to be aware of what is coming.

So calm down.

Never disagreed my boy. In fact, that was what I alluded to.

I said things bad for Point Lisas.

The Pt. Lisas model was a failed model that did not monetise our country's resources properly. The initial vision was good, but there needed to be a review of the model and contracts several times between the 50's, 60's and now. Unfortunately, the model has proven itself to be unsustainable which is why we are now seeing these emerging issues.

[DreamWeaver]

If the returns are better for the govt then great. It all seems to be working out that way. If it heads that way then we'll be getting more profits as a country. Can you not agree to that? Point Lisas might be screwed though so the workers need to be aware of what is coming.

So calm down.

Never disagreed my boy. In fact, that was what I alluded to.

I said things bad for Point Lisas.

The Pt. Lisas model was a failed model that did not monetise our country's resources properly. The initial vision was good, but there needed to be a review of the model and contracts several times between the 50's, 60's and now. Unfortunately, the model has proven itself to be unsustainable which is why we are now seeing these emerging issues.

our gas model is a bad model in the current world today. With global warming, shale gas abundance and the onset of renewable energy, our country is in a bad spot and needs to do something drastic to diversify into more sustainable ventures. We are running out of time, if not already. Even Atlantic will feel the pinch harder as time progresses. Just as Point Lisas companies and employees must face the harsh reality now, so too will all the citizens in the coming years.

[DreamWeaver]

any ting to do with pressures and flows, a couple guys in the field, or really just one, and one guy in a control room will handle dat. thats a non issue so long as the physical tie-ins are there.

This statement alone shows the complete lack of understanding of pressures and flows into a network even though physical infrastructure may be in place.

even if the tie-ins werent there, just hadda issue some hot tap permits and viola, jump over!

You make it sound as if it is as simple as going in your yard to lock off your mains valve and then cutting the PVC line to install a TEE. Hot taps are not as simple as you have suggested.


All is easier said than done and for several reasons mentioned and not, this is just not possible.

Actually a hot tap is very do-able. Although it would be easier to just fabricate the tee, isolate one of the secondary feeder pipelines, purge it, do the necessary modifications and install the tee. NGC can do this quite easily if they wanted since secondary pipelines do exist at key areas to allow switching for maintenance works. From my observations at these valve stations though, there already exists tap off infrastructure in place. Guess NGC was ahead of the game in some areas.

[sMASH]

any ting to do with pressures and flows, a couple guys in the field, or really just one, and one guy in a control room will handle dat. thats a non issue so long as the physical tie-ins are there.

This statement alone shows the complete lack of understanding of pressures and flows into a network even though physical infrastructure may be in place.

even if the tie-ins werent there, just hadda issue some hot tap permits and viola, jump over!

You make it sound as if it is as simple as going in your yard to lock off your mains valve and then cutting the PVC line to install a TEE. Hot taps are not as simple as you have suggested.


All is easier said than done and for several reasons mentioned and not, this is just not possible.

PHYSICALLY, it IS as simple as that. u talking to a man who lined up tank farms for 6 plants, 3 jetties, wrt NH4, MeOH, raw water from WASA, demin water intra plant, CO2, all over pt lisas.

Safe Work, Hot Work, Confined space, excavation, heavy lift jobs..... what u want clarification on? i worked on old plants for the majority of my time in pt lisas. average 14 jobs, minimum 10, involving one or more of those types of permits, practically every single day... not even in TAR,,, normal every day jobs.

as an older supervisor had said back in the day, 'all management has to do is tell operations what they want done, and they will get it.'


u make it sound like rocket science. its not. it is highly skilled work yes, but its what we trained and get big money to know.

but, jess like leff foot rittte foot govt, u all dont understand the detriment to the plants, and how those eco systems work. u all only see the upper level tax and royalties. on the ground, we see how the various aspects affect the costs and subsequent profitability, wrt to day to day operations and the longevity/profitability of the plants.

the only real problem is the negotiated contracts. but again, lefff foot ritttte foot, negotiated their way into footing the whole 300m TAR, jess to keep the tr1 LNG plant online and have at least 6 plants in pt lisas down.

good job.

[sMASH]

The Pt. Lisas model was a failed model that did not monetise our country's resources properly. The initial vision was good, but there needed to be a review of the model and contracts several times between the 50's, 60's and now. Unfortunately, the model has proven itself to be unsustainable which is why we are now seeing these emerging issues.

it didnt fail because it was inherently flawed, cause many people came in and made a lot of money. it failed because of the management.

if rowley paid as much attention to pt lisas as he doing with pt. fortain, it might get something right.
... on second thought, scrap that. cause they negotiated their way into paying for a whole turn around for 10% shared project, and negotiated their way to unitizing and getting 5% share in the whole complex, rather than 10 and 11% in two plants.

[K_J_R]

And this proves what? That there is a gas pipeline network in Trinidad and Tobago as well as jumpovers. This does not demonstrate that gas is being preferentially redirected.

atlantic receives gas from the 56" CIP and the 36" BP lines and bias adjusted per train.

CIP line is run by NGC and also supplies other major users in the area e.g. CGCL.

[De Dragon]

The Pt. Lisas model was a failed model that did not monetise our country's resources properly. The initial vision was good, but there needed to be a review of the model and contracts several times between the 50's, 60's and now. Unfortunately, the model has proven itself to be unsustainable which is why we are now seeing these emerging issues.

it didnt fail because it was inherently flawed, cause many people came in and made a lot of money. it failed because of the management.

if rowley paid as much attention to pt lisas as he doing with pt. fortain, it might get something right.
... on second thought, scrap that. cause they negotiated their way into paying for a whole turn around for 10% shared project, and negotiated their way to unitizing and getting 5% share in the whole complex, rather than 10 and 11% in two plants.

$8 BILLION lost over 10 years is a failed business model? It's actually more of a failed GORTT. This is literally placing all your eggs into one basket. People need to really think about the consequences of the largest methanol plant in the world idling because they cannot get gas.
Also I don't know where you're getting your information from, but if a tie in exists on a gas line every aspect of tying in those two systems have been engineered from safety to capacity etc. There are 140 bar steam lines that tie into 0 bar g/ambient temperature lines which have to be lined up for service and this is done on a routine basis, mostly without incident.

[zoom rader]

^^^ Pastor P()rnHabit 7 & and redman gone into hiding or cant get to use government laptop while at home

[sMASH]

they gone to sapp rowley head

[De Dragon]

they gone to sapp rowley head

Which one? Seeing as these two are routine ball blowers.

[Redman]

When Caroline Seepersad Bachan said she was going to Cabinet to deal with all of these issues.....what happened?

[sMASH]

they does sapp them rectally

[sMASH]

When Caroline Seepersad Bachan said she was going to Cabinet to deal with all of these issues.....what happened?

kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala kamala

who was the previous administration to this one?

[De Dragon]

When Caroline Seepersad Bachan said she was going to Cabinet to deal with all of these issues.....what happened?

Nothing, but a fairer comparison is what happened after JUHN Scarfy and Goebbels inserted themselves into the "negotiations" which is half of Pt. Lisas is now down, $300M has been spent on a no gas, 10% plant and the shut down of M4/M5. 7150 MTPD gone just like that, along with Nutrien's ,Yara's plants.
I don't recall these things happening after CSB's grandcharge.
Oh yeah the unitization coming "jess now"

[SuperiorMan]

How long would it take to get back all these people if UNC win the next election? Like how many years would it take? Fedup of reading what these clowns are doing to this country.

[De Dragon]

How long would it take to get back all these people if UNC win the next election? Like how many years would it take? Fedup of reading what these clowns are doing to this country.

Whoever is in power will not be able in the short term to halt the decline in gas production. The headlong pursuit of LNG, while justified, shouldn't come at the expense of the BILLIONS lost at Pt, Lisas in the last 10 years already. The truth is, that LNG as envisioned by the LFD RFD PNM will be in direct competition for gas with Pt. Lisas as already happens, no matter which LFD RFD PNM/uninformed people tell you differently.

[Redman]

When Caroline Seepersad Bachan said she was going to Cabinet to deal with all of these issues.....what happened?

Nothing, but a fairer comparison is what happened after JUHN Scarfy and Goebbels inserted themselves into the "negotiations" which is half of Pt. Lisas is now down, $300M has been spent on a no gas, 10% plant and the shut down of M4/M5. 7150 MTPD gone just like that, along with Nutrien's ,Yara's plants.
I don't recall these things happening after CSB's grandcharge.
Oh yeah the unitization coming "jess now"

Well she was moved.
Ramnarine came in....nothing done until Poten was engaged and began their gas study.
Despite knowing that there was a problem in 2011..they did not engage the MNCs in order to recover value, avoid these issues or improve the dynamic.


The reccs in general are

Solve the supply problem.
Solve the transfer pricing problem.
Optimize the supply to an equilibrium point between PTL and LNG.


We are in a crappy period no matter what.

Not doing train 1 TAR would have prevented plant closures how?
Please identify how Train 1 impacts the price of gas that NGC suppliers have set.

Be specific

[Cantmis]

Lol non energy personnel explaining the oil and gas industry .

[zoom rader]

Lol non energy personnel explaining the oil and gas industry .

These clowns of pastor Habit7 and Redman, they have never worked in industry. They sit and read articles from red government story tellers and then try to pass it on as gospel truth.

[Redman]

Any answer to the question?
Or just the same blather?
Morning Zoombindranath.