The Religion Discussion

[Bizzare]

this ched reaffirmed my faith in His Noodleyness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster

MG,
Can you expand on this concept of His Noodleyness? Why do you describe him as "FLYING"? Where does he fly?
Why is your subconscious mind telling you that your concept of GOD embedded somewhere in your brain (even though you don't believe) is "flying", in the sky, or above?

it is not meant to be an actual belief, it is a parody.

blasphemy

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

sorry, I didn't mean to offend any Pastafarians in here

May you be touched by his noodley appendage... Ramen

[d spike]

Spikey,
Ah working on the tolerance.

Very nice. Is that all you have to say regarding the matters I responded to? I hope you read the rest of the post.

I just want to say that you have your view and I don't know if that is the general view of mainstream Christianity.

I can't blame you for this, as you clearly know very little about mainstream Christianity ("Jesus is called the Spirit of Allah" etc.) A simple conversation with any intelligent follower of orthodox Christianity should put you straight.

When it comes to evidence to back up what you are saying, the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise, everyone following the Bible will interpret in their own way

Personal interpretation can obviously lead to disagreement. Scriptural study should be guided by a teacher, who in turn is guided by whichever religious body or group you have chosen to follow... not some unknown voice on the internet.
My choice here is to offer a voice - that is all. I am not seeking converts. My opinion voiced is simply that - an opinion. For me to claim anything here is simply ridiculous, as my qualifications cannot be viewed here. This is NOT my classroom.
If anyone wishes to verify what I have said here, they simply have to research the matter.

and that can easily happen because of the "parables" business.

I'm sorry, but that is nonsense. The misinterpretations that have occurred (and yes, there are many ) have very little to do with the parables that Jesus told. Actually, the understood meaning of those parables is actually one of the few things Christians agree on. The scriptural basis for the multiplicity of Christian faiths (there are many other reasons as well) exist mainly outside the Gospels.

However, I do know Islam and we hold on to knowledge from our prophet and his Companions...
That's our religion and we hold firm to that.

Excellent. Keep it up.

With respect to GOD and worship, again Islam directly opposes your view.

That is why I am NOT a Muslim.

So, because your views oppose ours, don't assume that we are making mistakes or primitive or whatever criticism that you can conjure up.

I was not correcting your beliefs, silly. I was correcting the erroneous comments you made.

Respect our views and our right to have them.

You have CLEARLY NOT READ ANYTHING I WROTE.
I have been stating this very same view in this very thread long before you even joined Tuner!

I would strongly advise you to check back to see what was said before you make yourself look like a twit.

[AdamB]

Ok Spikey,
I'm sorry but indeed you have a problem, more of a complex. What is your claim to fame? If the various sects of Christianity say the same, then do you expect someone from outside of your religion to "research" and come up with what you would like them to. That's possibly Einstein's definition of insanity.

For you, Sky, Kasey and anyone else asking to go back and read WHAT WAS SAID BEFORE. GET REAL, THAT'S UNREASONABLE, no one is going back to read a couple of hundred pages and thousands of posts where each of you would have posted hundreds of posts. If you guys want to keep your discussion going without interruption from newbies, then keep it via pm or work out something with the Administrator to keep it private, to stake your claim to this thread.

Alternatively, I will participate in current discussions, if you think you had discussed the issue before then you have a choice, repeat your views or just don't participate. Exercise CHOICE.

[Bizzare]

Wow, check them long responses !!!
What's the reward for defending your beliefs in this thread????
All I see is bickering, haven't seen not a soul converted nor is there a conclusion. Makes no sense!

[bluefete]

There is a huge debate happening now about death and where people go when they die. Is death a conscious state or an unconscious state?

Some are quoting the story of Lazarus and the beggar (given by Jesus) who both died and immediately one went to heaven and the other went to hell. The story goes that in hell Lazarus was tormented (conscious state) and begged God to send messengers to his brothers who were still alive to warn them about hell.

They also mention Jesus' statement to the thief that 'I tell you today you will be with me in paradise".

These give the impression that punishment and reward happen immediately after death and thus there is no need for a resurrection and judgment.

But the bible also says that when Jesus died he went and preached unto those "who sleep". So did he wake them up to hear the gospel and then let them go back to sleep until the resurrection?

What about the vision of Moses the disciples saw during the transfiguration? The bible does state that Moses died and there was a dispute between Satan and the Archangel Michael over his body. So was he resurrected to appear on the mountain with Elijah and Jesus?

What about the first and second resurrections mentioned in the Bible?

There is no recorded statement from Lazarus (who was resurrected by Jesus) about his death experience. Neither do we have a statement from Jairus' daughter who Jesus also raised from the dead. Nor do we have a statement from the widow's son who was raised from the dead by God through Elijah.

Can anyone shed some light?

I am so sorry I cannot respond as quickly as before due to pressure of work, family and study.

[AdamB]

It's a feeling of ABOVE, above EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS!!

Oh, you mean he's not LITERALLY above like the bible says?
What a shocker. Something figurative from the bible was taken literally.

How do you know what to take literally and what to take figuratively?

The Islamic View: HE is above everything (creation) and separate from it, in whatever way you can imagine - literally IN HIS ESSENCE and figuratively BY HIS ATTRIBUTES.

Would it be fair to you to now scold you and tell you to go and research this matter to find out the details of what the above means in ISLAM? Obviously not but I won't even try to tell that to Spikey!

Let's go back to when GOD existed alone (not lonely). Where was HE? There was no Earth or Heavens or anything else?

Now when HE created the Creation (everything that exists other than HIM), where did HE put the Creation? In HIMSELF or separate from HIMSELF? The Islamic view is the latter partly because it is not befitting of HIS majesty that HE be "mixed" in dirty places, sewers and the like.

~~~


This is a debate between the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jama’ah (who believe that Allah is above everything) and the Maturidis/Asharis who do not believe thus. It also deals with their false claims about Ahlus Sunnah.

Debate about where is Allah

This is a bit technical but inshallah all of us will understand by Allah’s guidance.

Azhari Shaikh: You (the Salafis) have put Allah in a place
Shaikh Al Albani: May Allah be raised above this! This is a great lie .

The Shaikh then said: Then a research between myself and him came about

I (Shaikh Al Albani) said to him: Oh teacher! is place (Makaan) something present or absent?
Azhari Shaikh: No, it is something present

I said: And is what is present limited or unlimited?

Azhari Shaikh: Limited
I said: Ok let us research now: we are on the earth, what is above us?

Azhari Shaikh: The first heaven.

I said: Until the seventh?

Azhari Shaikh: Until the 7th

I said: And above the seventh?

Azhari Shaikh: The throne.

I said: And above the throne what is there?

Azhari Shaikh: Above the throne are the Karuubeeyuun!

I said: And what are there Karuubeeyuun?

Azhari Shaikh: These are angels.

I said: Do you know a verse of the Qur’an that says that there are angels called Karuubeeyuun?

Azhari Shaikh: Nope

I said: Is there a Hadeeth from the Messenger (Salallahu alaihi wa sallam) that says this?

He said: Nope

I said: Then where did you get this belief from?

He said: O teacher! We leant this in Azhar

I said: O teacher! didn’t you leanr in Azhar that belief is taken (as they claim) only from an evidence that is sure and affirmed and sure in evidence, they build their belief upon this, that beliefs are not taken from an authentic Hadeeth except if it is Mutawatir (has ten narrators or above in every part of the chain)?

He said: Yes

I said: Not a verse, not a Hadeeth Mutawatir, not even a Hadeeth Aahad!! So where did you’ll get this belief from? In any case this is not the point, say that there are angels above the throne called Karabeeyuun: above these angels what is there?

He said: That is all, all is ended.

I said: Is there any place there?

He said: No

I said: We say that Allah is above the creation, therefore he is not in a place, because place (Makaan) is something created and limited, therefore he is not in a place, therefore when we describe Allah as he described himself why do you explain this belief and this statement which is contrary to what it is? Firstly: Your understanding is that the creation is limited, therefore why do you say: Allah is in a place according to these Mujassimah (those who make Allah similar to his creation) who are called Salaf As Salih, then you explain it contrary to the verses? Why don’t you submit your beliefs according to the evidences that are Mutawatir? Even some of the Imams of Hadeeth like Haafiz Adh Dhahabi wrote a small book which is specific to this which is called: Al ‘Uluuw Lil “alee Al ghaffar.

End…

Notes: Allah is described as having ‘Uluuw Al Mutlaq. Meaning that he is above everything. However this doesn’t mean that he is in a place. Because of the fact that Makaan or place is something created and limited and Allah is above his creation and above any limitations.

However many claim that the Salafis say that Allah is in a place which is false.

False claims

They say that the Salafis (Ahlus Sunnah) but Allah in a direction

They say: You put Allah in a direction.

We say to them: So you mean by direction something that is present and created? Or do you mean by it what is outside of creation?

If they mean by this something that is present other than Allah then it is something created and Allah is above his creation and separate from it.. but if what is meant by direction as something that is absent, meaning that it is above the creation then there is nothing except Allah alone that is above the creation.

[MG Man]

Alternatively, I will participate in current discussions, if you think you had discussed the issue before then you have a choice, repeat your views or just don't participate. Exercise CHOICE.

that's rather arrogant

[Bizzare]

Bluefete, Lazarus (who was actually the poor man) was not in Heaven. He was in a place referred to as Abraham's bosom or what some refer to as Paradise. Before Jesus died for sins, the dead would go to "Hades", which had two realms - one side being paradise.

Luke 16:26 - (Abraham speaking to the rich man who was in the other side of Hades)
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


That's why Jesus told the thief on the cross that today you would be in Paradise with me. When Jesus paid the price with his crucifixion, he took those who were in Paradise to Heaven with him.

No dead sinner is in Hell as yet either. That happens after judgement.

[bluefete]

AdamB: ^^ Sounds like a Christianity debate. God is over all and above all.

[AdamB]

Wow, check them long responses !!!
What's the reward for defending your beliefs in this thread????
All I see is bickering, haven't seen not a soul converted nor is there a conclusion. Makes no sense!

Those who are blind cannot see. You dont see the wind but it exists. So what else is there that you don't see, that exists?

Open your heart and your mind and your eyes, then you might see!

and the example of those who disbelieve is as that of him who shouts to those (flock of sheep) that hears nothing but calls and cries. (They are) deaf, dumb and blind. So they do not understand. (Tafsir Al-Qurtubi )
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #171)

and he whom Allah guides, he is led aright; but he whom He sends astray, for such you will find no Auliya' (helpers and protectors), besides Him, and We shall gather them together on the Day of Resurrection on their faces, blind, dumb and deaf; their abode will be Hell; whenever it abates, We shall increase for them the fierceness of the Fire.
( سورة الإسراء , Al-Isra, Chapter #17, Verse #97)

[bluefete]

Bluefete, Lazarus (who was actually the poor man) was not in Heaven. He was in a place referred to as Abraham's bosom or what some refer to as Paradise. Before Jesus died for sins, the dead would go to "Hades", which had two realms - one side being paradise.

Luke 16:26 - (Abraham speaking to the rich man who was in the other side of Hades)
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


That's why Jesus told the thief on the cross that today you would be in Paradise with me. When Jesus paid the price with his crucifixion, he took those who were in Paradise to Heaven with him.

No dead sinner is in Hell as yet either. That happens after judgement.

So are you implying that some dead people are already in heaven? Which heaven the 1st, 2nd - 7th?

I thought 'Hades' meant hell as in the grave! Also the rich man was in hell and tormented!!!!!!!!!!

Luke16:19-31

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[AdamB]

AdamB: ^^ Sounds like a Christianity debate. God is over all and above all.

I don't disagree!!

[AdamB]

Alternatively, I will participate in current discussions, if you think you had discussed the issue before then you have a choice, repeat your views or just don't participate. Exercise CHOICE.

that's rather arrogant

rather if you say so....but a position non the less.

[Bizzare]

Well there is a name for the place that all the dead were sent to before the crucifixion of Jesus. Hades was actually the realm of that place where the unrighteous were sent and awaited their judgement to be sent to hell.
B4 I said Hades was the place all dead entered. Hades was the realm for the unrighteous. sry

[Bizzare]

This article is kinda on point to what I'm trying to explain: http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/artic ... 69770.html



Edit: Ah see yuh ched geh lock up.... demonic attack?

[d spike]

Ok Spikey,
I'm sorry but indeed you have a problem, more of a complex.

Why? Because I corrected some mistakes you made? But are you not advising others to do just this? What makes it wrong when I do it?

if you have evidence otherwise (that what I have posted is incorrect), then correct it (in the spirit of good discussion)

It seems rather odd to me that only you have this problem with me...

What is your claim to fame?

Who said I was famous?
Why can you not simply accept my posts as my opinion and respond to them as such? Why must I have to stand under some banner in order for you to be happy? If you do not believe what I am saying, then even a simple "google" would solve the problem.

if you think you had discussed the issue before then you have a choice, repeat your views

But I did... and your response was to claiming they were:

...copy and paste from another thread

[996vtwin]

If you people fighting about religion thinks this is all about religion then you must have not gotten what Jesus said. ... Don't forget the jews held on to their scriptures...

[dtp]

so what about old nick in hoodoo worshiping

[dtp]

what about Saint Nicholas and his buddy krampus
what u think about that crew


who like Santa now

[dtp]

u all are so blind look outside the box u
don't believe in man translated scriptures

what ever man put his hand on he corrupt"s it

u all are being miss lead

[Sky]

For you, Sky, Kasey and anyone else asking to go back and read WHAT WAS SAID BEFORE. GET REAL, THAT'S UNREASONABLE, no one is going back to read a couple of hundred pages and thousands of posts where each of you would have posted hundreds of posts. If you guys want to keep your discussion going without interruption from newbies, then keep it via pm or work out something with the Administrator to keep it private, to stake your claim to this thread.

Once you say your part, but be open to the words of others (within reason of course) we cool.
Actually you doing much better than megadoc.

Who is Jesus to you?

[RIPEBREDFRUIT]

You shall have NO other gods before Me.

taught to you as a child in roman catholic Faith, believe it and forget all other religions. talk done!
NEVER let anyone force their religion or their beliefs onto you

[MG Man]

You shall have NO other gods before Me.

taught to you as a child in roman catholic Faith, believe it and forget all other religions. talk done!
NEVER let anyone force their religion or their beliefs onto you

but isn't that what parents do to little children?

[RIPEBREDFRUIT]

children need guidance, and if youre a catholic you bring them up in your faith, i dont consider that forcing them into a religion.

When they grow up then they can choose on their own what they wish to believe.

[MG Man]

children need guidance, and if youre a catholic you bring them up in your faith, i dont consider that forcing them into a religion.

When they grow up then they can choose on their own what they wish to believe.

not so simple..........in most cases, those beliefs are so ingrained that they will hold to them for life......
and why can't you give guidance without the use of a religious doctrine?
and no it's not 'forcing', but it is quite a bit of brainwashing...........why do you think hymns / bhajans / cassidas etc are so annoyingly repetitious?
'jesus loves me yes I know, for the bible tells me so'
that's some scary sheit right there

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

Religious stories about creation and good vs evil etc are a great way to teach morals and values children.

[MG Man]

Religious stories about creation and good vs evil etc are a great way to teach morals and values children.

you can do that with Star Wars too
lots of fairy tales also demonstrate good morals and values, all without scaring the fcuk out of your children with threats of eternal damnation

[Duane 3NE 2NR]

^ yes true - all of those work very well for young, impressionable minds.

[MG Man]

I guess you can try the religious stories, as long as u make sure the kids understand that it's just fiction.....
I got a nice book on creation stories from around the world..........good read