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Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Automotive Non-Technical topics... Just anything car related for the gear head in all of us

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Preferred Automobile Transmission

Conventional Manual
12
50%
Conventional Automatic
5
21%
Automated Manual (DCT)
6
25%
Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT)
1
4%
 
Total votes: 24

Rory Phoulorie
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Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby Rory Phoulorie » January 7th, 2016, 4:53 pm

Road & Track wrote:Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission
A dual-clutch gearbox is an automatic, and it isn't even the best one.

It was just over ten years ago that we lost my favorite automotive writer of all time, LJK Setright. A classical musician, law student, and accomplished photographer, Setright is probably best known for the forged-steel certainty with which he promoted his iconoclast and contrarian beliefs. In particular, he loved to chastise the auto industry for what he perceived as a reactionary attitude towards technology, turning his vitriol against targets as diverse as Mercedes-Benz (for retaining wooden wheels on some models well into the Thirties) and Jaguar (for "ruining" the aerodynamic stability of the 1994 XJ6 with the round-headlight 1995 re-style).

One of Setright's more controversial stances was his steadfast preference for the automatic transmission. This might not seem so outrageous in 2016, where everything from the BMW 3-Series wagon to the entire Ferrari lineup comes standard without a clutch pedal, but forty years ago the man stood more or less alone in the auto-journo world. He ridiculed the "antiquated" manual transmission while noting that the arrival of synchromesh gearboxes took all the skill out of driving a stick anyway. A major percentage of his book Drive On is dedicated to arguing the superiority of the self-shifting, planetary-geared transmission.

Yet even that arrangement didn't quite satisfy Setright, although he was unstinting in his praise of Porsche's Seventies-era decision to equip the original 928 with a PRNDL gate as standard equipment. The man saved his highest praise for what he considered to be the only truly proper transmission design on the market: the continuously variable transmission, or CVT.

If you, like most of the drivers out there, have only experienced the CVT as part of a relatively staid Japanese sedan like the Nissan Altima or Honda Civic, I doubt that you have any fondness for the idea. As implemented today, continuously variable transmissions are infamous for "rubber-banding" and for a sort of discombobulating disconnection of engine noise from forward progress. Even when all the electronic buttons are in their most sporting positions, as was the case when I drove a rental Altima around Circuit Of The Americas last year in preparation for my test of the Lamborghini Huracan there, today's CVTs are uninspiring and unpleasant in equal measure.

Yet this is the same transmission that was banned from Formula One before the first car so equipped, a 1993 prototype by Williams, turned a single lap in competition. It's easy to see why: when tuned for competition purposes, a CVT allows the engine to produce maximum power at all times. This is an advantage far more significant than the friction losses suffered by a CVT in comparison to a traditional gearbox.

There have been a few technical challenges standing in the way of using the CVT in sporting cars, but none of them could be considered even close to insurmountable. No, the reason your Porsche or Corvette doesn't have one has nothing to do with technology. Rather, it's human nature that poses the problem. "Car guys" want their sports car to sound like a sports car. They want the revs to rise and fall, they want the engine to audibly respond to their commands, and they want pretty much what they've always had in a performance car, with a wider cockpit and better mobile-phone integration.

Faced with the reluctance of privilege-car drivers to accept the CVT, but also faced with soaring emissions and fuel economy standards, the manufacturers have chosen to give us the DCT instead. As transmission choices go, it's the second most repugnant one available. (The first most repugnant is the automated single-clutch system found in cars like the Ferrari F355 F1 and many Aston Martins.) The DCT is an exercise in unjustifiable complexity, packed chock-full of computers and sensors and moving parts and actuators and the like.

I don't know anybody who thinks that he or she can service a modern DCT. The five-speed manual in my Neon race car—or the six-speed manual in my Porsche 993—can be taken apart and fixed by anybody with a service manual. But these new transmissions have the computing power of a modern Airbus and if anything goes wrong the best-case scenario is that the car just decides to sit in neutral and go nowhere. The payoff for this hideously unreliable electro-mechanical superstructure lowered unsteadily onto the century-old manual transmission? Well, you don't have to know how to use a clutch pedal, and you don't have to slow down while shifting.

Both of those advantages also apply to the CVT, however, so the true reason for the DCT can only be that we wish to pretend to be stick-shift drivers. That we want to hear the revs rise and fall like we're calling the shots ourselves. To assuage our guilt at losing part of our control over the car, the manufacturers give us paddle switches which, in my experience, are only useful when you're trying to get the last half-second out of a lap time by trying to second-guess the transmission's automated choice of a gear for a particular corner.

Proponents of the automated manual, particularly proponents of the mandatory auto-manual as found in the Porsche GT3 and the Ferrari F12, like to remind us that "it's the Formula One transmission" and "stick shifts are slower around a track." True on both counts, but it's only the Formula One transmission because the CVT was banned from Formula One. It's the tame housecat to the CVT's mountain lion, if you will, and it's primarily chosen by people who are afraid of stalling their Porsche in traffic.

In any world where human beings made their choices on even remotely rational grounds, the CVT would be standard equipment on every car that had "going fast" as part of its mission statement. As things stand, I think the most sporting vehicle you can find with a CVT is either the Nissan Maxima or the Aprilia Mana GT, depending on one's willingness to ride instead of drive. Both of them indulge in the lamentable play-acting of letting the revs rise and fall as the transmission "steps" between arbitrarily-chosen ratios. That's a shame, because it's inauthentic enough to make your average Brooklyn hipster spit out his craft beer.

You know what would be a great car? A CVT-equipped Viper ACR. While it's true that the ACR's V10 is torquey enough to make shifts relatively infrequent, I like the idea of a Viper that never shifts but rather just UPS-truck drones at max volume while scattering Ferraris and the like in its wake. I think the CVT should be called TorqueFlite in honor of Chrysler's previous engineering accomplishments in self-shifting transmissions. I'm pretty sure that the TorqueFlite Viper would hold the (admittedly meaningless) Nurburgring record for a very long time. And it would be a true moral triumph of results over marketing.

Would LJK Setright approve of the Viper ACR TorqueFlite? Well, he approved of Bristol, and Bristol built a Viper-engined car called the "Bristol Fighter" a while back, so I think there's a possibility that he would have loved it. He certainly would have loved the speed; when praising the Honda CBX, he wrote that its power gave it "the effortless superiority which is the mark of the true aristocrat." Could a Viper be an aristocrat? Why not?

Jack Baruth


I personally prefer a manual transmission over an automatic (my daily driver has a manual transmission). I recently drove a Qashqai for a few days which, according to the badge on the back, has a "fancy-shmancy" CVT, and I really could not tell the difference between how that "shifted" compared to a conventional torque converter automatic.

But if, as the above article says, a well designed CVT is equally as good, but less complex, than a dual clutch transmission (DCT), then the only advantage of the DCT over the CVT is the engine noise. I personally could not care for the engine noise in anything but a Lamborghini, Ferrari and Maserati (which really has a Ferrari engine these days), so if I had to go the automatic route in anything but the makes I listed, I would choose the CVT over the DCT.

What say you?

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby Ronaldo95163 » January 9th, 2016, 10:07 am

Manual tbh
But if it must be automatic then the conventional. CVT is tewtew

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby markmaddness » January 9th, 2016, 10:43 am

Rory Phoulorie wrote:I personally prefer a manual transmission over an automatic (my daily driver has a manual transmission). I recently drove a Qashqai for a few days which, according to the badge on the back, has a "fancy-shmancy" CVT, and I really could not tell the difference between how that "shifted" compared to a conventional torque converter automatic.

But if, as the above article says, a well designed CVT is equally as good, but less complex, than a dual clutch transmission (DCT), then the only advantage of the DCT over the CVT is the engine noise. I personally could not care for the engine noise in anything but a Lamborghini, Ferrari and Maserati (which really has a Ferrari engine these days), so if I had to go the automatic route in anything but the makes I listed, I would choose the CVT over the DCT.

What say you?

Did the badge by chance say CVTC or something along those lines? If so, that has nothing to do with the transmission but rather the engine. I believe it stands for Continuous Variable Valve Timing Control. I can be wrong.
To me, the most noticeable characteristic of CVT transmission is not feeling or hearing gear changes. Also, I noticed better fuel economy from CVT transmissions.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby racedriverpro » January 9th, 2016, 11:32 am

The ideology of cvt is good but why so many ppl complain abt their lifespan etc?

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby pugboy » January 11th, 2016, 7:09 am

because the construction requires good oil maintenance

they are mechanically very simple if you ever see the inside of one
a cvt is similar to gears on a bike, a rear set of gears but in the shape of a smooth cone
and similar in front with a metal belt running on them instead of a bike chain
the two cones both slide so that the belt can be moved from wider or narrow sections to
change the ratio continuously in the same way a chain on bike gears move.

the cvt in my toyota fielder is very good, smooth acceleration and you don't realise how fast you going until you check.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby racedriverpro » January 11th, 2016, 9:15 am

pugboy wrote: the cvt in my toyota fielder is very good, smooth acceleration and you don't realise how fast you going until you check.


Yea boi same thing with a Tiida..




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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby drchaos » January 11th, 2016, 5:34 pm

Plenty CVT's still have torque converters and that is where most of the parasitic loss occurs from automated transmissions. Lock up torque converters have helped but still no where near the efficiency of a DCT or a manual transmission.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby K_J_R » January 12th, 2016, 8:00 am

in theory yes it is. the cvt can help keep the engine in or near the peak torque point and optimise delivery of power.

in practice of course that is not the case as tghe cvt has annohying effect where you rev nothing happens

thats why companies like chrysler have now released a 9 SPEED transmission. to simul;ate the benefits of cvt without the rubvberband effect of a cvt.

also car ppl are accustommed to hear an engine rev up and down. so cvt takes getting used to.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » January 12th, 2016, 9:15 am

drchaos wrote:Plenty CVT's still have torque converters and that is where most of the parasitic loss occurs from automated transmissions. Lock up torque converters have helped but still no where near the efficiency of a DCT or a manual transmission.


Read up on the Zf 8 speed auto when you get a chance. It real bad for an automatic.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby MG Man » January 12th, 2016, 2:27 pm

CVTs got a bad name locally because of poor maintenance and the use of incorrect oil
The mini my sis bought in 2002 is still on the road, and has never had a single issue with the CVT. Biggest downside is sluggish response off the line. ONce up to speed though, CVTs give excellent acceleration once you are in the engine's torque range....takes a bit of getting used to. I could stay at 2k rpm form standstill and go all the way up to 80kph...very good for fuel economy. It takes some getitng used to but if you learn to get the best from a CVT, it's a decent transmission, not deserving of the bad reputation

Ss Bunny said, the ZX 8 speed is pretty awesome. Advanced software makes a huge difference in closing the gap between slush boxes and CVTs

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby drchaos » January 12th, 2016, 8:02 pm

Allergic2BunnyEars wrote:
drchaos wrote:Plenty CVT's still have torque converters and that is where most of the parasitic loss occurs from automated transmissions. Lock up torque converters have helped but still no where near the efficiency of a DCT or a manual transmission.


Read up on the Zf 8 speed auto when you get a chance. It real bad for an automatic.



Looks pretty cool! I should get to try it out next month, getting a x3 rental when I go on vacation.
Anyone know the reliability of these transmissions tho?

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » January 12th, 2016, 8:23 pm

Bulletproof once maintained.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby drchaos » January 12th, 2016, 8:59 pm

Interesting ... seems the amarok has a ZF 8 speed in it.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby Allergic2BunnyEars » January 12th, 2016, 9:56 pm

Yup

Rory Phoulorie
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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby Rory Phoulorie » January 19th, 2016, 5:31 pm

markmaddness wrote:Did the badge by chance say CVTC or something along those lines? If so, that has nothing to do with the transmission but rather the engine. I believe it stands for Continuous Variable Valve Timing Control. I can be wrong.
To me, the most noticeable characteristic of CVT transmission is not feeling or hearing gear changes. Also, I noticed better fuel economy from CVT transmissions.

No. It had a badge on the back marked "XTRONIC CVT". I could definitely feel a "gear change" with the transmission in "DRIVE". Probably Nissan programmed it that way to make it feel more like a conventional torque converter automatic but with the benefits of a CVT.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby drchaos » January 19th, 2016, 8:58 pm

yeah most cvt transmissions function with pre programmed gear ratios. The transmission can sort of do both, stepped gear changes and just vary the gear ratio's depending of your driving style.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby DVSTT » January 19th, 2016, 9:05 pm

How often do you need to change the CVT oil?

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby drchaos » January 19th, 2016, 9:21 pm

Depends on the manufacturer really.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby drchaos » February 12th, 2016, 11:42 pm

So after one week with an X3, the ZF transmission is really smooth and shifts feel DSG fast. The eco program shifts no higher than 2k rpm and the sport program will take you to redline and the hold the lower gears for longer. There was a delay tho when flooring from stand still for the power to be transmitted to the wheels, was not horrible but was noticed.

The x3 on the other hand did not impress me, cabin did not feel special. Did not make you feel that you were traveling in luxury (unlike the audi A5 i had rented a few months ago) even tho it was a well speced model, lots of black plastic everywhere. BMW's have little annoying quirks like the gear lever operation and the infotainment system. Even the wife was not impressed and has removed owning a BMW from her bucket list. Maybe i need to drive a 3 series but i don't see what the big deal is with BMW's beside's the badge.

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby MISHI » February 17th, 2016, 2:35 am

I remember when I worked in Diamond Motors Tobago back in 2002 and the CS lancers were CVT... a guy returned the next morning demanding to speak to the manager because his transmission was "slipping from new" and we sold him a lemon... and almost nothing we told him he wanted to believe...

CVTs are quite smooth and when maintained they last. My only thing with them personally is that I believe they are better suited to long flat city/ highway driving and not for example, for driving to charloteville on a regular basis...

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Re: Why a CVT Is Basically the Perfect Transmission

Postby cornfused » February 19th, 2016, 2:44 pm

Having driven CVT for a while now . I really like it . Its not a dragster type transmission . Seam less no hassle acceleration . Change the oil .

Agree with Mishi , not good on very steep hills. For instance , if you have to come to a stop on very steep hill in a vehicle with not much power , say a Tida . Depending on the load , it would be very hard to get going uphill . Not an issue for a more powerful vehicle such as a SR20 Primera or a Murano .

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