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Variable Valve Timing technologies compared

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Variable Valve Timing technologies compared

Postby bushwakka » January 7th, 2008, 11:11 pm

I don't know if this has been done already, but if not....you can post comparisons of the various valve timing technologies e.g. VTEC, VVT, VVL, AVCS, VANOS etc. in here

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Postby crazybalhead » January 8th, 2008, 1:11 pm

I would just google it yes. These are simlar and different in soooo many ways.

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Postby Rory Phoulorie » January 8th, 2008, 1:34 pm

Check this Road and Track article. It's a simple enough explanation.

Breathe Smart

This chart also summarises the different variable valve timing systems out there.

Smart Valves Chart

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Postby crazybalhead » January 8th, 2008, 2:46 pm

Wow! Good stuff! :shock:

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Postby Rory Phoulorie » January 8th, 2008, 5:47 pm

This is a link to a video put up on another site, Zorce, which shows a comparison of the VTEC, MIVEC and VVT systems.

VVT Systems

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Postby bushwakka » January 9th, 2008, 12:46 am

thanks for the links man....will check it out :)

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Postby ek4ever » March 21st, 2008, 1:02 pm

Had a great doc on this topic but can't find it know.

Basically all valve timing systems aim towards more power, higher mileage and better driveability.

Of the systems being used I recall that Rover had the most sophisticated system but was limited to a max of 6 cylinders due to the space requirements in the head.

Of the Japanese manufacturers Honda has the most proven and reliable system out there. The secret to VTEC is also the design of the combustion chamber and the cylinder roof. This is why Toyota/Nissan/Mitsubishi systems are very peaky and do not pull as strong and consistent over the power range of the motor. Honda is also set to debut A-VTEC which should make it to the next NSX. It will provide continuous valve timing and lift control similar to BMW VANOS but will be simpler and more reliable.

Nissan has also just released a new valve timing technology used on the new G37. Again it's all to control valve opening as much as possible to improve engine performance at all speeds.


http://paultan.org/archives/2006/09/26/ ... ine-avtec/

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Postby bushwakka » March 21st, 2008, 4:23 pm

^^actually, i think ferrari has the prize for most sophisticated and Effective vvt technology....their own actually offers infinite variations much like a CVT offers inifinite gear ratios

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Postby Pirate » March 29th, 2008, 12:36 am

Rory Phoulorie wrote:Check this Road and Track article. It's a simple enough explanation.

Breathe Smart

This chart also summarises the different variable valve timing systems out there.

Smart Valves Chart


some good info :!:

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Postby Conrad » March 29th, 2008, 7:45 am

ek4ever wrote:Of the Japanese manufacturers Honda has the most proven and reliable system out there. This is why Toyota/Nissan/Mitsubishi systems are very peaky and do not pull as strong and consistent over the power range of the motor.


This being T&T i.e. the land of Nissan, you better find that document fast because I'll really like to see this document you speak of.

And yeah, for the record, I would have sworn it would've been Ferrari or at least Porsche who would take the gold medal home for the most sophisticated vvt setup.

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Postby bushwakka » March 29th, 2008, 11:02 am

lol^^^ yuh kno ek4 sounds like honda hoe making them kinda broad statements without showing any graphs an ting to back it up.....

but yea...i wud say ferrari has taken the prize for vvt tech

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Postby OldSkoolRule » March 30th, 2008, 8:14 pm

I think Nissan takes the prize for valve technology. Somebody do some homework on Nissan VVEL. if its not already tested then it could probably be available already on the VQ37DE or even a VQ38DE/DET for the new GT-R. anyways, the concept of VVEL itself, MAD! the problem is WHEN we will get to experience it.

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Postby bushwakka » March 31st, 2008, 1:54 pm

^^^haven't heard abt VVEL really, just VVL.....will check out

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Postby civic SIR » April 1st, 2008, 10:45 am

yo honda - pioneers in de VTEC industry when many companies was still thinking carburetor. rest ah dem is 'johnny come lately'...talk done lol :lol:

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Postby ek4ever » April 1st, 2008, 11:05 am

awright....awright...I will look for the doc. I'm not discounting the technologies from any manufacturer it's just that Honda has had the most time working with this from their Formula 1 campaigns in the 80s and 90s because they wanted to improve driveability AND efficiency of their street engines without resorting to forced induction. All this is set to culminate with the A-VTEC system....an infinitely variable cam phasing and valve lift system. Honda also did a lot of work understanding flow charectersitcs in the head to optimize head design for the high lift/long duration stage of it's VTEC system for it's F1 engines and then transplanted that to it's street production engines.

And yes...BMW already has this with the DOUBLE VANOS but like any BMW technician will tell you it's complex and prone to problems because of the incredible high pressures it uses to operate the system.

Ferrari's system does look to be the best system out there at present....again...I'm sure they learned this from their vast F1 experience.

Nissan's newest VVEL (Variable Valve Event & Lift) is an upgrade to the VVL system. It now combines Valve lift with cam phasing. It does a great job as is evident by the performance of the VQ37

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Postby ek4ever » April 1st, 2008, 11:08 am

OldSkoolRule wrote:I think Nissan takes the prize for valve technology. Somebody do some homework on Nissan VVEL. if its not already tested then it could probably be available already on the VQ37DE or even a VQ38DE/DET for the new GT-R. anyways, the concept of VVEL itself, MAD! the problem is WHEN we will get to experience it.


CRISM taking orders for the GTR. $1.5 mil....

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Postby Conrad » April 1st, 2008, 11:13 am

civic SIR wrote:yo honda - pioneers in de VTEC industry when many companies was still thinking carburetor. rest ah dem is 'johnny come lately'...talk done lol :lol:


1) Is there any other car manufacturer in the "V-TEC" industry :roll:

2) What do you drive?

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Postby ryansouthman » April 1st, 2008, 11:52 am

:roll: :roll:

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Postby bushwakka » April 1st, 2008, 7:37 pm

why honda men always feel that VTEC was the first vvt tech to come out? jus do a simple google search an u will see that it wasn't

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Postby ek4ever » April 2nd, 2008, 9:18 am

bushwakka wrote:why honda men always feel that VTEC was the first vvt tech to come out? jus do a simple google search an u will see that it wasn't


Yeah...ok....we know...GM was the first company to try it but had limited success. The first true system was developed by Fiat.....but the first successful production was by Honda. I don't think that honda men think VTEC was the first, it's more that it was the first successful application of the technology on a mass scale and really brought VVT into the spotlight.

Note that Toyota only brought out their version of vvt after seeing the success honda was having....some of it marketing. But I think the great appreciation we have for VTEC is because of it's elegant, simple and reliable design and the fact that honda pursues continuous development of this technology with such dedication.

It's also worth noting that Toyota, Nissan and Mitsubishi vvt & lift systems all borrow the concept from the VTEC system. In fact Nissans's VVL is licensed technology from Honda. Read up on the technical details of these systems and you will see that they all work on the VTEC principle.

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Postby mitsu » April 2nd, 2008, 9:36 am

I have driven VVT,VVL ,Mivec and Vtec
and recently subaru avcs
V-tec packs a punch at high rpm ,the rest are boo!

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Postby Conrad » April 2nd, 2008, 10:42 am

ek4ever wrote:I think the great appreciation we have for VTEC is because of it's elegance


A motor screaming at the top of its lungs like a mosquito taking lessons from Mariah Carey while sipping on helium is not elegant. You got me interested in VVT technology now. Will read up and research some of your claims.

How much does vvt technology affect engine performance? Since Honda gurus prophecise of it's bearing on the lives of newly converts I would believe it's very significant yet I believe most RBs from Nissan didn't come with this technology stock.

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Postby mitsu » April 2nd, 2008, 10:55 am

^^ I'll say it again


I have driven VVT,VVL ,Mivec and Vtec
and recently subaru avcs
V-tec packs a punch at high rpm ,the rest are boo!


Thats why you'll find a honda "screaming"

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Postby ek4ever » April 2nd, 2008, 11:00 am

Conrad wrote:
ek4ever wrote:I think the great appreciation we have for VTEC is because of it's elegance


A motor screaming at the top of its lungs like a mosquito taking lessons from Mariah Carey while sipping on helium is not elegant. You got me interested in VVT technology now. Will read up and research some of your claims.

How much does vvt technology affect engine performance? Since Honda gurus prophecise of it's bearing on the lives of newly converts I would believe it's very significant yet I believe most RBs from Nissan didn't come with this technology stock.


Conrad...you have to keep in mind that these 2 companies took different approaches to engine development...Nissan went with forced induction and Honda went NA. That's why each has such strength in these particular areas. I mean the RB26DETT is a phenomenal motor....I personally think its the best forced induction engine to come out of Japan....it's specs are impressive in terms of the technology used....and like most Nissan engines it's way overbuilt so tuning it to 500hp is no sweat for it.

Like the RB series the Honda C series in the NSX is also 1 of the best NA engines...for performance and durability...with the F20 and F22 not far behind.

Finally ..I was speaking to the operational design of the VTEC system being elegant....it's well thought out and very effective in achieving the goals Honda had set for their engines. And maybe you dont hear it in the B series motors but a C and F series motor have a distinct F1 wail at WOT....something honda drivers appear to love....and apparently owners of NSXs and S2000s (Honda actually tuned the intake and exhaust so that the driver could hear it)

Oh and while reading up on the many vvt systems out there if you come across the Rover system (uses eccentric discs) and can understand it please explain it to me. Been trying to wrap my head around that system for years now.....or point me to the material

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Postby Conrad » April 2nd, 2008, 11:00 am

OK, I stand corrected. Just did a small search and apparently Nissan did have vvt technology...it was produced mainstream in their VG series of engines for the 300ZX back in 1986. The RBs from 1993 onward had vvt technology.

The excerpt below is to show the Japanese on a hold were behind on this new tech.

Alfa Romeo was the first manufacturer to use a variable valve timing system in production cars (US Patent 4,231,330). The 1980 Alfa Romeo Spider 2.0 L had a mechanical VVT system in SPICA fuel injected cars sold in the USA. Later this was also used in the 1983 Alfetta 2.0 Quadrifoglio Oro models as well as other cars.

Honda's REV motorcycle engine employed on the Japanese market-only Honda CBR400F in 1983 provided a technology base for VTEC.

In 1986, Nissan developed their own form of VVT with the VG30DE(TT) engine for their Mid-4 Concept. Nissan chose to focus their NVCS (Nissan Valve-Timing Control System) mainly at low and medium speed torque production because the vast majority of the time, engine RPMs will not be at extremely high speeds. The NVCS system can produce both a smooth idle, and high amounts of low and medium speed torque. Although it can help a little at the top-end also, the main focus of the system is low and medium range torque production. The VG30DE engine was first used in the 300ZX (Z31) 300ZR model in 1987, this was the first production car to use electronically controlled VVT technology.

The next step was taken in 1989 by Honda with the VTEC system. Honda had started production of a system that gives an engine the ability to operate on two completely different cam profiles, eliminating a major compromise in engine design. One profile designed to operate the valves at low engine speeds provides good road manners, low fuel consumption and low emissions output. The second is a high lift, long duration profile and comes into operation at high engine speeds to provide an increase in power output. The VTEC system was also further developed to provide other functions in engines designed primarily for low fuel consumption. The first VTEC engine Honda produced was the B16A which was installed in the Integra, CRX, and Civic hatchback available in Japan and Europe. In 1991 the Acura/Honda NSX powered by the C30A became the first VTEC equipped vehicle available in the US. VTEC can be considered the first "cam switching" system and is also one of only a few currently in production.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Valve_Timing


Honda wasn't the first to produce vvt tech mainstream nor was it the first successful application. It was pioneering I admit with its performance at high revs but that's it...its other primary function was to reduce gas consumption at "normal" use. V-TEC wasn't the best, it simply is a tech that has been refined over the years (since 1989) and highly publicised/marketed to become one of Honda's biggest campaign to prove their performance from their small albeit "powerful" engines.

V-Tec does pack a punch at high revs but my God, where is the torque at the lower rpms? Remember vvt isn't about high revs but its effect/power delivery can be tuned specifically to deliver torque at lower rpms (drive a 300ZX and you'll see she can damage your spine even at 4000rpm if tuned right).

In the end, vvt is a wonderful tech and Honda must be given props for its R&D in this effeciency aimed tech but does it make V-Tec the best thing since sliced bread? No.

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Postby ek4ever » April 2nd, 2008, 11:12 am

Nice info there Conrad.

Nissan did develop their own vvt (NVCS) however this is a cam phasing system. VVL addressed the lift functionality....I think the 2 have now been married in the VVEL system. While your post highlights some good points you're mixing up 2 distinct technologies...cam phasing (valve timing) and variable valve lift....or to be more specific...VTEC was the first commercially offered system that altered valve lift as well as duration.

Other than that....great post.

PS: If you think vvt is interesting Saab had a variable compression engine in which the system moved the entire head up or down to change compression ratios. I saw a video of this and when the changeover occurs it looked like the engine fell off a mount. Very strange system

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Postby Conrad » April 2nd, 2008, 11:14 am

ek4ever I stand corrected then about the difference between valve timing and variable valve lift. I have to research more, knew these things existed but never paid attention. Will read up on it later, back to the people work.

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Postby ek4ever » April 2nd, 2008, 11:16 am


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Postby mitsu » April 2nd, 2008, 11:24 am

Great research guys, this is my opinion about honda being the best thing since slice bread - no other manufacturer gives this kind of performance with economy in mind...not to mention honda’s sweet looks and quality

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Postby Conrad » April 2nd, 2008, 11:28 am

^^^ Yep, that's why retirees love them. They're reliable as ever.

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